Must There Be A Section 31?

[kkt]

No, I don't believe Section 31 needs to exist or that something like Section 31 exists in every country today.

The United States has the CIA which collects information, some part of it through clandestine sources, but they do NOT have Section 31's lack of accountability and freedom to decide for themselves what missions they should undertake. The CIA reports to the Director of National Intelligence, a cabinet-level civilian who reports to the president. They also brief the House and Senate intelligence committees. They are not allowed to operate clandestinely within the United States.

Then the FBI has counterintelligence which DOES operate within the United States and has similar civilian control at the top and reporting. I'm not saying that the civilian control of either the CIA or FBI is all perfect and has never been abused, but they don't have the complete lack of responsibility that Section 31 seems to.

Splitting the internal and external responsibilities helps keep either from becoming too powerful. That sort of division happens in a lot of countries today, and it's strange that if the Federation had a Section 31 at all that they wouldn't divide their reponsibilities similarly.

Countries that have organizations like the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order are using it primarily to monitor and control domestic dissent. Needing a secret police like the KGB or Stasi is a sign of a very unhealthy society, and I'd expect the Federation not to have or need such a thing. When people can say their opinions out loud and work for the policies they want openly, there's no need for a vast network of informers. (Wikipedia claims the Stasi had one part time informer per 6.5 civilians in East Germany,)

I'd rather DS9 had never brought up Section 31, or had brought it up only to shut it down in a later episode.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

It's not surprising there'd be a covert organization like that operating during a time of war. I suppose the show writers could have had it have no official unofficial connections to the establishment - a secret (private) society, rather than a division of Starfleet.

 

[DonIago]

I'd question how an entirely private organization would have access to the resources to do the things that S31 does, or at least claims to do. And in the future that we're presented with, I feel as though it would be inevitable that a private organization would ultimately end up having ties to Starfleet in some manner, just as the Maquis contained a number of disaffected Starfleet officers and property 'acquired' from Starfleet.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Private contractors/organizations would definitely jump at the chance to hire ex-Starfleeters, both retired and disgruntled, whichever it is depending on whether their relationship with Starfleet is cooperative or adversarial.

 

[ThetaSigma]

A clandestine branch of Starfleet, authorized to undertake extreme measures. With no regards for Federation law and presumably no accountability?

Or, an excuse to include a harder edge Starfleet organization. That has all the best toys, breaks all the rules, living life in the fast lane on a roller coaster ride without guardrails?


The recent Section 31 movie got me thinking. With how the DSC, S31 and STID all depict Section 31 as the super spy/black ops branch of Starfleet. Complete with secret star bases (DSC), a fleet of ships (DSC), R&D facilities on Earth (STID), Uber ships that outclass the hero’s (DSC and STID), banned and confiscated technology.

Outside of the “badass”, anti-hero vibe Paramount+ and Kelvin-Trek apply to Section 31.
Is such an organization (to the degree we see them in the aforementioned series) even necessary?

Dare to compare how Starfleet provisioned out missions that you would think would be more suited to Section 31.

TOS: The Enterprise Incident - Where Kirk and Spock sneak aboard a Romulan vessel to steal a cloaking device.

TWOK/TSFS - USS Reliant and later USS Enterprise being in charge of the Genesis project. And how a weapon like that could be perverted to killing entire planets. Data classified at the Captain and above ranks of Starfleet.

TNG:
Face of the Enemy - Troi (reluctantly) and the Enterprise involved in a mission by Starfleet and Ambassador Spock to help Romulan ex-patriots flee the planet.

Chain of Command - Picard, Worf and Dr. Crusher given orders from Starfleet to undergo training for a secret mission in Cardassian space.

VOY:
The Omega Directive - Classified to the Captain’s rank and above. Janeway says that all Captains are trained on how to deal with Omega particles and neutralize them.

I’m drawing a blank on DS9 examples, but I’m sure there are some.These are just off the top of my head.

I ask the question, does a Section 31 need to exist?

StarFleet brass has no trouble enlisting their captains to undertake missions outside the scope of diplomat and explorers all the time. The only time Section 31’s methods were “necessary” (if you can call it that) is when they made Odo patient zero for the morphogenic virus.

With the scheme Sisko pulled on the Romulan’s in the episode “In The Pale Moonlight”. I’m not to bothered by Sloan’s actions in “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges”. Where they frame a Romulan ally as a traitor to her own species to face trial and execution. Hell, look at how involved Kirk/Spock, Picard/Worf, Sisko/Worf were involved with the internal politics and stability of the Klingon empire. I just don’t see how this secret squirrel branch of Starfleet is secretly “holding it all together”.

No absolutely not no agency like Section 31 should exist, they are by their nature destabilising and more likely to cause the problems than deal with them. I mean look at the CIA, Al McCoy pretty clearly shows the links between the CIA and the Heroine trade, MKULTRA was inflicted on US Citizens, MOCKINBIRD spread propaganda, Cyclone lead directly to 9/11 and more generally the CIAs support for right wing Islamists against anti imperialists secular nationalists has lead the dangerous rise of fundamentalism.


Frankly Section 31 is more than likely the cause of all those little wars the Federation was flighting in it's golden age, the phenomema is called Blowback and the CIA coined the term after overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran. Not to mention these services always get turned back on the people they're supposed to protect and their actions become to defend often indefensible status quos.

 

[ThetaSigma]

Must there be a S31?

I'd like to believe the answer is no, whether we're speaking of the modern world or the world of the future that Star Trek offers in its various incarnations.

But I fear the answer is that it's not only inevitable but perhaps really is necessary. That perhaps it's not possible to be a saint in paradise without someone lurking in the background propping it up.

As was once said in (an alternate timeline in) BTVS:
Giles: I have to believe in a better world.
Buffy: Go ahead. I have to live in this one.

You should look closely at the CIAs record, not only was it unneccessary it has proved far more dangerous the US than the USSR ever was

 

[ThetaSigma]

DS9 proved that they are a necessary evil in order to have a utopian society. Because not EVERYONE is going to go along with utopia. So, who deals with them? And what if they are so unreasonable that diplomacy or Starfleet can't deal with them. We will always be saddled with the sad reality that, if not for S31's attempted genocide, the Alpha Quadrant would have lost the war.

Really? I'd say DS9 actually disporved that.

Their witchunt against Bashir would embaress James Jesus Angleton and he was a paranoid fool!

Their plot to position Koval at the Tal Shiar didn't do anything to affect relations and may have made things worse, as we see in Nemesis relations between the Federation and Romulans have collapsed and the military wants war, why? Almost certainly blowback.

Then the Founder virus... the worst blowback imaginable. With no one to order a surrender the Jem'hadar would have fought to the last man leaving a pyhrric victory, let alone what would happen whent he link died and the combined might of the Dominion came through the wormhole.

If Bashir hadn't lured Sloan to the station and stole the cure from his mind and given it to Odo Section 31 would have been responsible for the utter destruction of the alpha quadrant!

 

[Yistaan]

I rewatched Star Trek Into Darkness and Star Trek Beyond and despite the general idea that these movies are grimmer than the Prime Reality, I'd argue that, while it started that way with the destruction of Vulcan, this timeline ends up being far more idealistic and utopian than the Prime universe. It is VERY strongly implied that Section 31 is completely abolished after the revelation of Admiral Marcus' activities and that the Fed as of Beyond is VERY much on the peaceful exploration/diplomacy angle. Notably Krall/Edison is said to be spying on the Federation by hacking into their archives via Starbase Yorktown for a year or more and is so angered by their non-violent angle that he decides to attack them to make humanity strong again.

In fact, one could argue that the reason Krall seemingly never showed up in the Prime universe is because when he hacked the Fed archives in that timeline, he saw how grimdark and violent they were with Section 31 running around and a militant Starfleet in the aftermath of the Klingon war, liked what he saw and decided that humanity was already strong without his help, and just happily kept on draining alien victims on Altamid without notice.

 

[fireproof78]

Prime Kirk: "I'm a soldier."

Krall: Excellent, my young apprentice.

 

[Yistaan]

Prime Kirk: "I'm a soldier."

Krall: Excellent, my young apprentice.

Yep, Kirk says this in Errand of Mercy I believe? One of the TOS episodes. Meanwhile by Beyond we have someone shouting every other minute "Starfleet is not a military!" (although they obviously know how to defend themselves if it comes to that) The versions of Starfleet in the late 2250s/early 2260s between the universes are shown as being VERY different ultimately.

 

[fireproof78]

Yep, Kirk says this in Errand of Mercy I believe? One of the TOS episodes. Meanwhile by Beyond we have someone shouting every other minute "Starfleet is not a military!" (although they obviously know how to defend themselves if it comes to that) The versions of Starfleet in the late 2250s/early 2260s between the universes are shown as being VERY different ultimately.

Probably because they don't have the unrelenting hostilities of the Klingons that Picard alludes to.

 

[Yistaan]

Probably because they don't have the unrelenting hostilities of the Klingons that Picard alludes to.

Klingon Chancellor: So what happened to those humans?

Klingon Survivor: Why one of them took out a whole squad! Just one! We haven't seen anything like this since...

Klingon Chancellor: The augment threat a century ago. **** the humans are using augments again? Aren't they satisfied that half of our people are smooth-headed freaks? They want to infect the rest of us too? We're going into hiding!

Klingon Survivor: You are showing cowardice unbecoming of a chancellor and I hereby challenge you to a due--

Klingon Chancellor: You want to kill me and then get into a fight with augments and doom the rest of our species to disfigurement? Chancellor M'Rek died with dishonor a century ago because half our people ended up with smooth foreheads!

Klingon Survivor: You know what, forget it, let's hide.

Marcus' ghost: See, I was right, using Khan ultimately avoided a Klingon war!

 

[The Wormhole]

It is VERY strongly implied that Section 31 is completely abolished after the revelation of Admiral Marcus' activities

Though not canon, the comics were supervised by Orci, and they made it clear Section 31 was still very much a thing after STID. Which would suggest Orci did not intend STID to be the end of Section 31 at all.

 

[Yistaan]

Though not canon, the comics were supervised by Orci, and they made it clear Section 31 was still very much a thing after STID. Which would suggest Orci did not intend STID to be the end of Section 31 at all.

I think you're right. That being said, the behind-the-scenes drama of Star Trek Beyond indicated a clear break from Orci's storytelling so while the canonicity of the comics was always in question, it's even more in question now when someone new took over and purposely and specifically went in the opposite direction the previous writer went in (which going by Memory Alpha seemingly was rumored to involve a war with the Klingons going by comments by Lindelof etc. With Bob Orci now dead we may never know exactly unless his script is released).

 

[The Wormhole]

while the canonicity of the comics was always in question,

That was never in question, the comics aren't canon. Orci himself even said so. Granted, that was after he was goaded into saying they were canon for a clickbait soundbyte.

(which going by Memory Alpha seemingly was rumored to involve a war with the Klingons going by comments by Lindelof etc. With Bob Orci now dead we may never know exactly unless his script is released

Orci's script for the third movie (which he titled Star Trek Into Oblivion) was supposed to brink Shatner back as a resurrected Prime Kirk on a quest to restore the Prime Universe. Quinto Spock would be conflicted between his loyalties to the Kelvin Timeline and the opportunity to restore Vulcan.

 

[somebuddyX]

As an antagonist group, whether outright villainous or just foils for our characters, I think they serve an interesting point so I don't mind them existing, if the story they are used in is interesting. I kinda would have preferred if they had just been some new organisation that had sprung up as a result of the threat of the Dominion, because I hate how the novels wanted to try to tie every nefarious action in Trek history to these guys. I think it takes something away from the corruptibility of individuals if they are all working for some evil organisation. Star Trek VI is beautiful in how while one group of individuals from both sides works to start peace, a second group overcome their differences to start war. Sticking S31 in the mix just blunts that dynamic. Same with the cloaks. Kirk and Spock pulled their mischief and got a way with it. Pressman and his band thought they could subvert the rules of the treaty, high on their own hubris.
But since they were created 300 years before DS9, why not bring them back. I think Enterprise was close to the DS9 portrayal. I think Into Darkness didn't understand them and morphed them to be Admiral Marcus' goons, which is disappointing but feels in line with Orci and Kurtzman's cursory understanding and in line with their writing of secret organisations on Alias, and Discovery was just continuing on that status quo.

 

[The Wormhole]

Same with the cloaks. Kirk and Spock pulled their mischief and got a way with it.

In the case of The Enterprise Incident, Kirk would have been acting under orders from Starfleet Command on that. There's no way an operation like that would have been undertaken without authorization from higher authority. Granted, that doesn't mean it would automatically have to be a Section 31 operation like the novels asserted, but it's also inaccurate to call what we see in that episode Kirk and Spock's "mischief" and that they "got away with it."

 

[Yistaan]

In the case of The Enterprise Incident, Kirk would have been acting under orders from Starfleet Command on that. There's no way an operation like that would have been undertaken without authorization from higher authority. Granted, that doesn't mean it would automatically have to be a Section 31 operation like the novels asserted, but it's also inaccurate to call what we see in that episode Kirk and Spock's "mischief" and that they "got away with it."

I don't think it was just the non-canon novels, but DC Fontana herself who later retconned the Enterprise Incident to be a S31 operation in the Year Four comics she wrote (which while non-canon themselves, because they had the tv writer involved, at least indicate where she ultimately decided these orders in the episode came from even though obviously the concept of Section 31 didn't exist back when she worked on the tv show way back in the 1960s).

On the topic of this episode, I do remember complaints on how absurd it was for Scotty to easily install a Romulan cloaking device onto the Enterprise which was never designed to be equipped with cloaks. And now we have Picard Season 3, which has the Enterprise-G/Titan-A suddenly installing a century old Klingon cloak with no problem...

 

[fireproof78]

think Into Darkness didn't understand them and morphed them to be Admiral Marcus' goons

I mean, Ross did the same.

On the topic of this episode, I do remember complaints on how absurd it was for Scotty to easily install a Romulan cloaking device onto the Enterprise which was never designed to be equipped with cloaks. And now we have Picard Season 3, which has the Enterprise-G/Titan-A suddenly installing a century old Klingon cloak with no problem...

Plug and play tech is the ultimate achievement for interstellar cooperation.

 

[StarMan]

I must've scanned the thread title too quickly. My brain registered 'Must there be a Section 31 forum?'

If ever there were a testament to the failure of this godforsaken thing is the fact this forum doesn't have a page 2, and that's including everything kicked over from FoT.