Must There Be A Section 31?

[Deks]

You don't think Lessing suffered PTSD?

None of these qualifications make it less torture.

He didn't suffer from PTSD based off what Janeway put him through, no.
Lessing suffered from SELF-INFLICTED PTSD because he previously participated in killing alien lifeforms whose bodies were subjected to meticulous and brutal experimentations... the PTSD ensued because he basically contributed in starting a war against aliens who decided to fight back (and he also contributed to putting VOY in danger and getting a few of its crew dead).

Janeway's little tirade in the cargo-bay was borderline torture - he experienced some fear and anxiety (of his own making) for all of a minute or two.

Chakotay put a stop to it, and she could have escalated the situation after he forcefully removed Lessing from the cargo bay, but she didn't.

 

[Deks]

Don't underestimate the long term impact a belief that one is about to die can have, even if they only believe that for "a few minutes."

I'm not, but Lessing wasn't an innocent in this scenario either. His PTSD was self-inflicted and he also directly contributed to putting VOY crew in danger (and got a few of them killed).
Janeway simply tried exploiting his pre-existing fear to stop Ransom (which didn't work).

If you want to play that card, then it should be noted Lessing was not the one who decided to start killing the aliens and use their corpses as fuel, so there's no reason to put him to death for that. Or even to make him think he's being put to death.

But Janeway didn't kill him, and to be fair, I don't think she wanted him dead in the first place. To her, it was intimidation tactic with a calculated risk.

Did she miscalculate in this particular scenario? Probably yes. And as I said, I'm not disputing the fact that putting Lessing in danger like that didn't constitute the definition of torture as we understand it - but in practical terms it was borderline, and mostly a breach of ethical conduct given the overall circumstances.

Chakotay stepped in and after forcing himself into the cargo-bay to retrieve Lessing because he was worried for his safety, Janeway could have escalated the situation further, but she didn't.

 

[DonIago]

^I have to ask: would you be making the same arguments if things had gone wrong and Lessing had been killed?

 

[NCC-73515]

Wait... torture (as "we" understand it, and you don't) is not so bad if the victim did something bad too, and if his suffering is only brief, and he is ultimately spared from death? Do I get that right?
She also locked up the guy who saved him, and threatened to do the same to Tuvok if he disagrees again. She lost all my respect in that episode.

 

[Deks]

Wait... torture (as "we" understand it, and you don't) is not so bad if the victim did something bad too, and if his suffering is only brief, and he is ultimately spared from death? Do I get that right?
She also locked up the guy who saved him, and threatened to do the same to Tuvok if he disagrees again. She lost all my respect in that episode.

Torture as we understand it.... aka, the DEFINITION of it.
SF/UFP may have changed (at least in part) what constitutes torture by the 24th century). And I wasn't implying its fine if the victim did something bad too.

My point was that Janeway's intent (as far as we know) wasn't to kill Lessing. It was (in her head) calculated intimidation tactic which ultimately failed.
If she wanted to, she could have put a phaser to his head and threatened him that way. She also could have escalated the situation by force after Chakotay removed Lessing from the cargo-bay, but she didn't.

Tuvok was threatened yes, and yet, as chief of security, he could have gone to the EMH and ask him to examine Janeway and determine if she's psychologically fit. In fact, the ethic-less EMH would have likely been DELIGHTED to jump at the chance to find justification and relieve her of command (if nothing else to get VOY to back off Equinox for a little bit).

And yet the whole crew went along with Janeway (mostly). Chakotay was directly opposing her actions, while Tuvok was far milder in his approach, but still opted to follow her orders.

^I have to ask: would you be making the same arguments if things had gone wrong and Lessing had been killed?

Probably not. And hey, I'm not denying that what Janeway did defines as torture, but the whole situation was a mess, and she was also trying to stop a rogue captain from killing more aliens in the process.
Bottom line is, she miscalculated and had clouded judgment during those events - and it hit closer to home because these were other SF officers at work too.

 

[fireproof78]

"Ends justify the means."

 

[BillJ]

"Ends justify the means."

Never.

 

[FederationHistorian]

does a Section 31 need to exist?

I think its more a question of what good are Section 31 for?

ENT – Archer and crew handled the Xindi threat, renegade Augments, the Vulcan-Andorian conflict, a Romulan plot, and the TCW stuff without them. Meanwhile, Section 31 had their hand in the Klingon Augment virus, and years earlier didn’t even make sure Klaang was dead to ensure a smooth first contact with the Klingons, as that could have gone very wrong in T’Pol was not added as a Vulcan representative to the crew. And it seems like Section 31 also buried the Borg file for 200 years, allowing for the Battle of Wolf 359 to happen.

DIS – Seem unaware of the Sarcophagus ship, and a war breaks out between the Federation and the Klingons. Then the following year, their A.I. goes rogue.

SNW – unaware of a plot to resume the Federation-Klingon war.

TOS – “Day of the Dove” and “The Enterprise Incident” stand out most. Along with handling Khan and Project Genesis in the TOS movies.

S31 – plan to do a heist for a mirror universe weapon that they don’t know is a mirror universe weapon, then get talked out of it to do a different plan, then they lose the weapon, and it’s unclear if the weapon when it exploded left the mirror universe in ruins (thereby killing and ruining billion, possibly trillions of lives) or just destroyed the conduit between both universes.

TNG – The events of "Unification”, “Chain of Command”, “Face of the Enemy”, "Descent", "Gambit" “The Pegasus” and “Lower Decks” were all handled by the Ent-D crew.

DS9 – Sisko poisons a planet to stop Eddington and the Maquis from continuing to use biogenic weapons on Cardassians, and later Garak blows up Senator Vreenak to get the Romulans into the Dominion War.

VOY – Janeway stops a Species 8472 invasion, handles the Omega molecule, and then travels back in time to stop the Borg and get Voyager home early.

LD – Cerritos pulls off a black ops on their own in "Veritas", and Mariner performed some of her own with a Klingon friend years prior.

PIC – a Tal Shiar operative rose to the height echelons of Starfleet Security, who also happened to be the architect of having synths attack Mars and kill 85K people (and the billions not evacuated from Romulus), and ushering a synth ban that killed many more. Even though Romulan showed a penchant of installing spies in Federation ranks decades prior in TNG (“Data’s Day”).

Even in the Kelvinverse, after being recruited by Section 31, Khan goes rogue and kills two Starfleet admirals (Pike and Marcus), a bunch of Klingons, and - for a brief moment - Kirk. Section 31 also almost starts a war with the Klingon Empire.


Protecting Chancellor L’Rell (even though there's supposed to be a Klingon Honor Guard to do just that), faking the death of Ash Tyler and his unborn child, installing an operative on the Continuing Committee on Romulus to keep the Federation Alliance going, and sending William Boimler to find the source of the quantum fissures are the peak of Section 31's work. The rest of the time, they have been useless or make things worse.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

While our non-31 hero characters do things you'd think 31 would do, 31 is doing things we don't get to see, or only merit throwaway mentions/implications.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Protecting Chancellor L’Rell (even though there's supposed to be a Klingon Honor Guard to do just that), faking the death of Ash Tyler and his unborn child, installing an operative on the Continuing Committee on Romulus to keep the Federation Alliance going, and sending William Boimler to find the source of the quantum fissures are the peak of Section 31's work. The rest of the time, they have been useless or make things worse.

It's funny that the last mission a: was totally in Starfleet's wheelhouse and b: would've caused the destruction of our entire universe if Starfleet's B-team hadn't stepped in to fix the problem.

That's the peak of their work.

 

[DonIago]

I think its more a question of what good are Section 31 for?

ENT – Archer and crew handled the Xindi threat, renegade Augments, the Vulcan-Andorian conflict, a Romulan plot, and the TCW stuff without them. Meanwhile, Section 31 had their hand in the Klingon Augment virus, and years earlier didn’t even make sure Klaang was dead to ensure a smooth first contact with the Klingons, as that could have gone very wrong in T’Pol was not added as a Vulcan representative to the crew. And it seems like Section 31 also buried the Borg file for 200 years, allowing for the Battle of Wolf 359 to happen.

DIS – Seem unaware of the Sarcophagus ship, and a war breaks out between the Federation and the Klingons. Then the following year, their A.I. goes rogue.

SNW – unaware of a plot to resume the Federation-Klingon war.

TOS – “Day of the Dove” and “The Enterprise Incident” stand out most. Along with handling Khan and Project Genesis in the TOS movies.

S31 – plan to do a heist for a mirror universe weapon that they don’t know is a mirror universe weapon, then get talked out of it to do a different plan, then they lose the weapon, and it’s unclear if the weapon when it exploded left the mirror universe in ruins (thereby killing and ruining billion, possibly trillions of lives) or just destroyed the conduit between both universes.

TNG – The events of "Unification”, “Chain of Command”, “Face of the Enemy”, "Descent", "Gambit" “The Pegasus” and “Lower Decks” were all handled by the Ent-D crew.

DS9 – Sisko poisons a planet to stop Eddington and the Maquis from continuing to use biogenic weapons on Cardassians, and later Garak blows up Senator Vreenak to get the Romulans into the Dominion War.

VOY – Janeway stops a Species 8472 invasion, handles the Omega molecule, and then travels back in time to stop the Borg and get Voyager home early.

LD – Cerritos pulls off a black ops on their own in "Veritas", and Mariner performed some of her own with a Klingon friend years prior.

PIC – a Tal Shiar operative rose to the height echelons of Starfleet Security, who also happened to be the architect of having synths attack Mars and kill 85K people (and the billions not evacuated from Romulus), and ushering a synth ban that killed many more. Even though Romulan showed a penchant of installing spies in Federation ranks decades prior in TNG (“Data’s Day”).

Even in the Kelvinverse, after being recruited by Section 31, Khan goes rogue and kills two Starfleet admirals (Pike and Marcus), a bunch of Klingons, and - for a brief moment - Kirk. Section 31 also almost starts a war with the Klingon Empire.


Protecting Chancellor L’Rell (even though there's supposed to be a Klingon Honor Guard to do just that), faking the death of Ash Tyler and his unborn child, installing an operative on the Continuing Committee on Romulus to keep the Federation Alliance going, and sending William Boimler to find the source of the quantum fissures are the peak of Section 31's work. The rest of the time, they have been useless or make things worse.

I think this is giving S31 too much credit. They're not all-powerful or all-knowing, even if they sometimes like to pretend otherwise. For most of these events, it doesn't surprise me that they were uninvolved. I'm not sure why you even listed VOY; unless (probably more than) one S31 operative had been on the ship, how is it reasonable to expect them to have any involvement in those events?

Anyway, in theory S31 is supposed to be rather like God, as per Futurama. When they do things right, you won't be sure they did anything at all.

 

[fireproof78]

Section 31 thinks they're doing good.

The stories just tell them they are not. Doesn't change why they think they should exist.

 

[DonIago]

Section 31 thinks they're doing good.

The stories just tell them they are not. Doesn't change why they think they should exist.

We may be victims of selection bias. All we know of S31 is what we've been shown.

 

[Nerys Myk]

We may be victims of selection bias. All we know of S31 is what we've been shown.

True, the office parties are epic. And they recycle!

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I think its more a question of what good are Section 31 for?

ENT – Archer and crew handled the Xindi threat, renegade Augments, the Vulcan-Andorian conflict, a Romulan plot, and the TCW stuff without them. Meanwhile, Section 31 had their hand in the Klingon Augment virus, and years earlier didn’t even make sure Klaang was dead to ensure a smooth first contact with the Klingons, as that could have gone very wrong in T’Pol was not added as a Vulcan representative to the crew. And it seems like Section 31 also buried the Borg file for 200 years, allowing for the Battle of Wolf 359 to happen.

DIS – Seem unaware of the Sarcophagus ship, and a war breaks out between the Federation and the Klingons. Then the following year, their A.I. goes rogue.

SNW – unaware of a plot to resume the Federation-Klingon war.

TOS – “Day of the Dove” and “The Enterprise Incident” stand out most. Along with handling Khan and Project Genesis in the TOS movies.

S31 – plan to do a heist for a mirror universe weapon that they don’t know is a mirror universe weapon, then get talked out of it to do a different plan, then they lose the weapon, and it’s unclear if the weapon when it exploded left the mirror universe in ruins (thereby killing and ruining billion, possibly trillions of lives) or just destroyed the conduit between both universes.

TNG – The events of "Unification”, “Chain of Command”, “Face of the Enemy”, "Descent", "Gambit" “The Pegasus” and “Lower Decks” were all handled by the Ent-D crew.

DS9 – Sisko poisons a planet to stop Eddington and the Maquis from continuing to use biogenic weapons on Cardassians, and later Garak blows up Senator Vreenak to get the Romulans into the Dominion War.

VOY – Janeway stops a Species 8472 invasion, handles the Omega molecule, and then travels back in time to stop the Borg and get Voyager home early.

LD – Cerritos pulls off a black ops on their own in "Veritas", and Mariner performed some of her own with a Klingon friend years prior.

PIC – a Tal Shiar operative rose to the height echelons of Starfleet Security, who also happened to be the architect of having synths attack Mars and kill 85K people (and the billions not evacuated from Romulus), and ushering a synth ban that killed many more. Even though Romulan showed a penchant of installing spies in Federation ranks decades prior in TNG (“Data’s Day”).

Even in the Kelvinverse, after being recruited by Section 31, Khan goes rogue and kills two Starfleet admirals (Pike and Marcus), a bunch of Klingons, and - for a brief moment - Kirk. Section 31 also almost starts a war with the Klingon Empire.


Protecting Chancellor L’Rell (even though there's supposed to be a Klingon Honor Guard to do just that), faking the death of Ash Tyler and his unborn child, installing an operative on the Continuing Committee on Romulus to keep the Federation Alliance going, and sending William Boimler to find the source of the quantum fissures are the peak of Section 31's work. The rest of the time, they have been useless or make things worse.

An Extraordinary List!

I would add the murder-conspiracy and sabre-rattling plot from the Undiscovered Country. Where Starfleet Admiral Cartwright, Colonel West, Lt. Valeris and those two ensigns who wore the magnet boots, were involved with the assassination of Ambassador Gorkon. Along with the attempted assassination of the Federation President.

This plot was hatched by extremists in Starfleet’s top brass, along with Romulan ambassador Nanclus and Klingon general Chang.

This whole scheme was right up Section 31’s alley. However, Starfleet didn’t need their arm twisted to set out to trigger a war with the Klingon’s or frame Kirk and the Enterprise crew as patsies.

I think this is giving S31 too much credit. They're not all-powerful or all-knowing, even if they sometimes like to pretend otherwise. For most of these events, it doesn't surprise me that they were uninvolved. I'm not sure why you even listed VOY; unless (probably more than) one S31 operative had been on the ship, how is it reasonable to expect them to have any involvement in those events?

Anyway, in theory S31 is supposed to be rather like God, as per Futurama. When they do things right, you won't be sure they did anything at all.

The closest VOY gets to anything that what resemble the need for Section 31 would be the Omega Directive.

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[DonIago]

It absolutely wouldn't surprise me to learn that S31 had involvement in resolving situations involving the omega particle, though the Omega directive as implemented on Voyager just seemed damned impractical. What if a ship is in the middle of combat at the time? Never mind that the way it plays is just going to raise a ton of questions among the crew; a less obvious display would seem like a far more prudent approach.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think there's a difference between Starfleet black ops and Section 31 operations.

There is most definitely a difference.

Most organizations which engage in black ops are still accountable to the governments they serve. They must still play by the rules, they have to justify their existence and budgets, and they operate within a chain of command.

Section 31 does none of these things. They literally do whatever they want. Not even the President of the Federation knows about them! That's one of the most dangerous things I've ever seen. Section 31 has absolutely no accountability of any kind. They do whatever they feel like.

So no, there must NOT be a Section 31. If Starfleet Intelligence can't get it done, it doesn't fucking deserve to get done!

Section 31 thinks they're doing good.

The stories just tell them they are not. Doesn't change why they think they should exist.

It doesn't matter what they think.

 

[Turtletrekker]

It always comes down to accountability. In the very first episode of TNG, Picard asks Riker if he would object to his captain ordering a "clearly illegal kidnapping". Now, if Groppler Zorn had wanted to press charges against Picard for this, Picard could be held accountable for his actions. Now, if Section 31 kidnaps Groppler Zorn, Zorn would be SOL.

 

[fireproof78]

doesn't matter what they think.

It probably does to them and their will to survive.

Saying "you shouldn't exist" doesn't make something stop existing.

 

[somebuddyX]

I don't really care nowadays bit I used to like the idea they could have been just a group that sprung up as a result of the Dominion War. That's also how I felt about HYDRA in Captain America: The Winter Soldier springing back after the Chitauri Invasion. The only thing that bothered me was the novels tieing all the nonsense the Badmirals got up to or every bit of espionage to Section 31. I like that the phase cloak was Pressman's baby or the Star Trek VI conspirators were a bunch of scared officers. I think it takes something away from the fallibility of the individual to assign it all to an overarching organisation.