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Why the hate for Alex Kurtzman?

I am going to start by stating that I don't like musicals. It's a genre that just doesn't appeal to me.

My wife made an interesting observation about me while we were watching this... it's the first time I ever checked after an ad break for any episode and said "This is the final act" as if I was relieved. I didn't realize I said it that way, but she was right. She also nailed the reason why I don't like musicals... they drag on. More accurately, they drag on in a repetitive way. Meaning a character will burst into song about their heartache/emotion/whatever and the point was fully made in 2 minutes... but they will still keep going with it for 2 or 3 minutes more. Songs have repitition, and that's fine. But on a tv series, it just wastes time. I like my episodes as lengthy as possible so we can get those day in the life scenes, character beats, etc. But NOT when it's this repetitive.

Having said that, I did like that the episode focused on the emotions the crew were going through in their situations... Spock, Chapel, Uhura, Pike.

Nice to have Carol named here... AND pregnant. Even better that it's pretty much exactly right in terms of timeline.

Kirk telling Spock he almost understood what he said... that was a nice scene.

I have to say, Chapel does not come off well here. She tells everyone else about her acceptance into the Korby fellowship... except Spock? That's kind of disrespectful, because she always had at least a fundamental respect for him and cared for him, and this just doesn't follow her previous motivations. No wonder he ends up going to full Vulcan mode by the time of TOS. The man has done everything he could to be understanding and helpful in the relationship... given space when needed, changing the subject Dak'Rah was going on because it was upsetting Chapel, etc. And you know he would be the first one to say 'go for the fellowship' and not guilt her to stay, because he's a good guy. I don't buy the excuse of the Boimler scene in the turbolift is her way of getting out of his way for his destiny... she was already on the fence of even being in a relationship in the very next episode after "Charades". Spock's line to Stonn in "AMOK TIME" about wanting and having a thing really carries extra weight because of Chapel... she's basically the living embodiment of that sentence.

And Una turning off the gravity and her and La'an floating in the conference room... why? Just... why?

When the Klingons were about to come onscreen, I was thinking to myself, "Finally, something I can get behind... Klingon opera." What happened just... I can't unsee that. I STILL don't know whether to be amused or disgusted. A Klingon boy band? I never liked boy bands, and combining them with Klingons... this is just dishonorable. :klingon:

Two things just really kept taking me out of the episode. First, the fact that the crew actually hear music coming from... apparently nowhere? Second, the dancing. Even the anomaly doesn't explain the crew doing dance numbers. (The only one that even makes a lick of sense is the waltzing with Una and Kirk... in the context of how ridiculous the situation is, as two people in a conversation, I can see them just shrugging their shoulders and just ramping the ridiculousness to 11. I can't say that about the bar scene, the corridors, or the bridge.)

And speaking of ridiculous dance numbers... the Enterprise and the 2 Klingon ships apparently dancing. STARSHIPS DANCING IN SPACE?! WTF was I watching.

I admire SNW for being experimental, and that it's confident enough to do this. But this just wasn't for me. I rated this a 5 because I wanted to be fair due to my own inability to get past the fact it was a musical... it's my lowest score of SNW to date, even lower than "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow". Like with that episode, if the character focus wasn't there, this would have rated a far lower number. If I am to be honest, I will never rewatch this one again, which is something I have never said about ANY episode in the entire franchise.
The above quoted post was my review of the episode right after it aired.

The character work was fine. It's the method that doesn't work for me. (Being a musical.)

About the only thing I would change in my review is this: I am certain of how I feel about the Klingon boy band. It was just dreadful. Not amusing.



People saw the word musical and made assumptions. Holodeck scenarios run amok well hey sure. But a musical how dare they?

Random characters singing in an episode for no reason is fine but seven songs with massively important character growth lyrics well that's just going too far.

People wanted to hate it before it even came out

I hate musicals, but I gave the episode a 5. Why? Because I wanted to be fair. Had I rated it solely on my distate for that genre, "Subspace Rhapsody" would be a 1... a 0 if that were a possible score to put down.

It's also kind of wrong to assume people hate it and made assumptions about it and prejudged before it aired. (Unless they ACTUALLY already said something along those lines before it aired.)

Everyone has their own threshold on what they consider too far to suspend disbelief. For some, the anomaly here IS that threshold. I can't disagree with that because that's their view. And it's fine. Just as you think the anomaly is no crazier than some of the others in the franchise. And that's fine, too.
 
I don't have a problem with the idea of people not liking the musical. We all have different tastes and while I LOVE musicals, I understand its not everyone's cup of tea. But I have a hard time with having an issue of how the deus ex machina led to it happening. Because there is a lot more ridiculous shit in the very fabric of Star Trek that we all have turned blind eyes at. Still, if that's what it is, that's what it is. I still stand by people taking it too seriously, but that's only my opinion.
 
Completely agree. “The anomaly did it” is not an adequate explanation for me. Why would a space anomaly somehow pipe through Earth showtunes and pop music from a certain era? It makes no sense. Trying to explain it away with technobabble is like the Streisand effect; it’s just calling attention to the flimsiness of the whole premise.

Trek is a series that relies on suspension of disbelief. That’s how we can accept warp drive, transporters, replicators and Klingons etc. Suspension of disbelief will only stretch so far before it snaps, however. Obviously, different people have their own comfort zone when it comes to suspension of disbelief. Some people obviously don’t think there was anything silly about the episode. I did.

Farscape did an episode with wacky animated Looney Tunes sequences and it worked. It didn’t try to convince you it was actually somehow happening; it happened in Crichton’s altered state of consciousness.

I could totally have accepted a musical if they hadn’t tried to present it as happening in actual “reality”. Make it an altered state of consciousness, a shared dream, the effect of an alien consciousness like Q. Make it a non-canon episode like a Simpsons Treehouse of Horror type of thing. Don’t just tell us “somehow the anomaly did it”. That’s so lazy.

Incidentally, this episode also made me realise that the character arcs on SNW hinge far too much on who’s dating or got the hots for who. I’m now very much aware this is not the show for me. That’s another story, though. I did give it a fair shot.
That was a great episode, in honesty.

Yeah, if Spock had woken up after a fever-dream caused by the thing, then I would've been more accepting of things.
 
I don't have a problem with the idea of people not liking the musical. We all have different tastes and while I LOVE musicals, I understand its not everyone's cup of tea. But I have a hard time with having an issue of how the deus ex machina led to it happening. Because there is a lot more ridiculous shit in the very fabric of Star Trek that we all have turned blind eyes at. Still, if that's what it is, that's what it is. I still stand by people taking it too seriously, but that's only my opinion.
Indeed, yes. I am of that opinion too that it is being taken too seriously. But, that line will be different for everyone.

I don't think the episode is lesser because I don't care for it. It just isn't for me. It's still Star Trek; just not Star Trek I watch.
 
Now of course Im not saying all disdain for it is disingenuous at all. Lots of people will dislike something after giving it a fair shake and that's perfectly fine.

But a lot of hatred towards it and indeed I daresay towards a lot of this current era of Trek content was predetermined by people.

And I will admit it is sometimes hard to filter out the sincere dislike from the insincere and I apologise if it seems like I'm calling anyone insincere with their opinions if they did give something a fair chance with an open mind.

But to disregard or not even watch an episode due to an out of context snippet in the middle of a scene is just not a strong justification to me.

It would be like to disregard Best of Both Worlds because of a couple of cringey Wesley moments. Sometimes you have just have to accept the odd less than stellar line delivery or something else in the middle of a scene as we're not even talking about one whole scene.
 
"Strange New Worlds" is the title and the premise, and SNW is doing a better job of delivering on it than any series since TOS.

Quite seriously, when we'd watch the previews for next week, back in 1966, we didn't know what we were going to get - and the episode often turned out to be quite different than expected. *

There was no telling what we'd get, because it seemed as if the show could do anything, go in any direction. And it was thrilling.

Star Trek may not be for everyone; nothing worthwhile is, and fortunately there are a lot of other choices of many kinds of entertainment at our fingertips if we decide it isn't.

*What's up with Spock wearing a beard and trying to kill Kirk, huh?
 
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There was also a sizable viewership drop off between the SNW musical and the season 2 finale, so it seems not that many people were Exited for Next Product(TM).
The uncritical "Excited for Next Product(TM)" types are worse for media franchises and their fandoms than gatekeepers ever were, IMO.
 
The uncritical "Excited for Next Product(TM)" types are worse for media franchises and their fandoms than gatekeepers ever were, IMO.
What's particularly interesting is a certain cohort here accuses anyone with criticisms of SNW of being a "gatekeeper"... yet they then turn around and try to gatekeep anyone who liked PICARD season 3 and wants more Star Trek akin to the Berman era (and I'll find that screenshot one day of a particular poster arguing Berman era fans should be kicked out of the fandom) and says people were just taken in by memberberriers (yet they love LOWER DECKS -- which has significantly more memberberries).

Yes, yes, it's been just over one month, so we should just move on from S31. But PS3 was two years ago now and some are still OUTRAGED over the MEMBERBERRIES and the FANWANK and that so many people liked it that didn't like the "correct" parts of NuTrek.
 
I believe that one can make the argument intent behind references and crossovers is very important.

Characters that have new stories can be told or underdeveloped ones can get some much needed love and context that for many reasons they never got decades ago. Loving parodying is again a whole other categroy.

However there are certainly the wrong types where someone may want to just write a fanfic about all their old favourites. Not an image dispelled when someone admits to having zero capability to write a season of a show otherwise.

I'm not angry just disappointed and I think my bitterness will always be about what we did not get more than what we did. Of all the words of tongue and pen the saddest are these it might have been.
 
We should? When was that memo?
I was sarcastically referencing a few hypocritical posts from the S31 subforum where some people said we really should move on from talking about that one. No need to discuss the ratings etc and what they portend.
 
I was sarcastically referencing a few hypocritical posts from the S31 subforum where some people said we really should move on from talking about that one. No need to discuss the ratings etc and what they portend.
I don't think they portend anything.

We should really move on from discussing anything from the past.
 
The uncritical "Excited for Next Product(TM)" types are worse for media franchises and their fandoms than gatekeepers ever were, IMO.
Well, with the exception of Picard season 2 and Section 31, I have found much more to like than dislike from every Star Trek project in the new era, so why shouldn't I be excited for the next release, in this case Starfleet Academy?

This is one that I'll definitely file under, "Sorry, not sorry".
 
A couple of people mentioned that other instances are ok because Trek made rules and were consistent with them. But someone has to write those rules the first time. When GR introduced the transporter, it was ridiculous. When they wrote "Hey, this dude can snap his fingers and alter reality any way he wants," the first time, it was ridiculous. The first time they wrote "Hey, we can store people inside a transporter forever like Tupperware," it was ridiculous. When they wrote "Hey, we can use hair from a comb to reverse aging," for the first time, it was ridiculous. "Hey, these people only live 9 years but in all other ways behave exactly like everyone else" so stupid. But they were consistent, so we went with it. This is the first time someone is writing "Hey, a weird subspace anomaly creates music and causes everyone to do choreography." In 20 years, as long as they write it consistently in the future, that's Trek now. Subspace anomalies can do that now.
 
In 20 years, as long as they write it consistently in the future, that's Trek now. Subspace anomalies can do that now.
And that's why I say that episodes can hurt new Star Trek going forward if they set a precedent for something that other writers latch onto and continue.

Also viewers didn't think the transporter and godlike beings etc. were ridiculous back then, because the series was still defining what it was and they didn't push it far enough to break suspension of disbelief. At least not for the people who decided to stick with the series afterwards.
 
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