How have starship science labs on starships improved from the Constitution class to the Galaxy class?
James
James
Sick Bays & Science Labs
- Thread starter James Wright
- Start date
James,
I'm not sure we saw many actual labs post-TOS, but I'm sure someone will correct me. I just remember Data's Lol-factory, which I believe was reused for Locutus holding (or something that looked similar). Not my specialty I'm afraid.
TOS Labs appears much more '60s tech, and very hands on. TNG, I would guess, would consist more of scanning, computer analysis, and then gawking at the big Sony LCDs. As such, a physical lab would be less necessary. i.e., computer assistance is a bigger part of the show, IMHO.
Timo,
With some digging I managed to view the Remastered version. Since I don't have a surround sound speaker system available, I was only able to listen to it in stereo. Here's what I found:
As you mentioned, five turbolift light flashes occur before the closeup. Its roughly a one minute trip, or slightly longer. It would be interesting to compare the time to other known destinations from the Bridge (sickbay in Amok Time for example, I think).
Spock starts the turbolift verbally. He locks his arms behind his back while walking into the lift, and doesn't appear to change that position. He doesn't move unless its during the Commander's closeups. He never issues another command during the trip. If he manually stopped the lift he appears to have done so by awkwardly reaching his arm up behind his back to grab the control handle (I don't remember if there was one directly behind him).
The music gets quite loud, but I believe I am hearing turbolift whine all the way to the end when the music decreases prior to the doors opening. There does seem to be some sort of non-musical whine when the music gets slightly softer. There are no apparent sounds of the lift stopping and starting mid-scene, I do believe the sound of the deceleration is quite audible. The doors open on their own (as far as we can see), as I believe they normally do at the destination.
I would prefer someone with a 5.1 (or 7.1) sound system connected to their BluRay player to confirm this, assuming the music was separated from other sounds it might confirm what I heard (or it may just mean a stereo or mono mix was all that was available and the software used to "de-mix" couldn't separate the whine from the music).
So, as far as I can tell and unless my ears are deceiving me, its a long trip to somewhere. Add to that the issue of it being unwise for the lift system to allow a car to block access to the Bridge (i.e., automatic systems wouldn't allow it, IMHO), and throw in the issue that 1701 doesn't seem to have any VIP quarters (given "Elann of Troyius", and in a merely supportive role "Jouney to Babel"), and the only reason I can see for people thinking there would be VIP quarters on Deck 2 is the number of portholes.
But, yes, except for these issues its entirely possible that even if the ship had labs on Deck 2 at some point one could rip them out and put in VIP quarters. They wouldn't be very safe from weapons fire and other dangers, but about the same as the Bridge.
Up next: TAS Photons (the 'toon adventure is just beginning!)
I'm not sure we saw many actual labs post-TOS, but I'm sure someone will correct me. I just remember Data's Lol-factory, which I believe was reused for Locutus holding (or something that looked similar). Not my specialty I'm afraid.
TOS Labs appears much more '60s tech, and very hands on. TNG, I would guess, would consist more of scanning, computer analysis, and then gawking at the big Sony LCDs. As such, a physical lab would be less necessary. i.e., computer assistance is a bigger part of the show, IMHO.
+++++++++
Timo,
With some digging I managed to view the Remastered version. Since I don't have a surround sound speaker system available, I was only able to listen to it in stereo. Here's what I found:
As you mentioned, five turbolift light flashes occur before the closeup. Its roughly a one minute trip, or slightly longer. It would be interesting to compare the time to other known destinations from the Bridge (sickbay in Amok Time for example, I think).
Spock starts the turbolift verbally. He locks his arms behind his back while walking into the lift, and doesn't appear to change that position. He doesn't move unless its during the Commander's closeups. He never issues another command during the trip. If he manually stopped the lift he appears to have done so by awkwardly reaching his arm up behind his back to grab the control handle (I don't remember if there was one directly behind him).
The music gets quite loud, but I believe I am hearing turbolift whine all the way to the end when the music decreases prior to the doors opening. There does seem to be some sort of non-musical whine when the music gets slightly softer. There are no apparent sounds of the lift stopping and starting mid-scene, I do believe the sound of the deceleration is quite audible. The doors open on their own (as far as we can see), as I believe they normally do at the destination.
I would prefer someone with a 5.1 (or 7.1) sound system connected to their BluRay player to confirm this, assuming the music was separated from other sounds it might confirm what I heard (or it may just mean a stereo or mono mix was all that was available and the software used to "de-mix" couldn't separate the whine from the music).
So, as far as I can tell and unless my ears are deceiving me, its a long trip to somewhere. Add to that the issue of it being unwise for the lift system to allow a car to block access to the Bridge (i.e., automatic systems wouldn't allow it, IMHO), and throw in the issue that 1701 doesn't seem to have any VIP quarters (given "Elann of Troyius", and in a merely supportive role "Jouney to Babel"), and the only reason I can see for people thinking there would be VIP quarters on Deck 2 is the number of portholes.
But, yes, except for these issues its entirely possible that even if the ship had labs on Deck 2 at some point one could rip them out and put in VIP quarters. They wouldn't be very safe from weapons fire and other dangers, but about the same as the Bridge.
Up next: TAS Photons (the 'toon adventure is just beginning!)
JNG,
First, my bad, its "Lal" not Lol.
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/character/1112457.html
As it turns out Piscapo was in "The Outrageous Okona" and Lal was in " The Offspring".
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708814/fullcredits#cast
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708816/fullcredits#cast
But it sounded plausible to me too, for a minute. Though I would probably get child-rearing advice from someone else, after seeing "Johnny Dangerously" (which I highly recommend).
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087507/
That was in the one with Joe Piscopo, right?
First, my bad, its "Lal" not Lol.
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/character/1112457.html
As it turns out Piscapo was in "The Outrageous Okona" and Lal was in " The Offspring".
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708814/fullcredits#cast
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708816/fullcredits#cast
But it sounded plausible to me too, for a minute. Though I would probably get child-rearing advice from someone else, after seeing "Johnny Dangerously" (which I highly recommend).
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087507/
Yes, I know; I was trying to make a little funny. LOL stands for "laughing out loud," and so a Lol-Factory would be producing laughs, so I thought of the one where Data tries to be a comedian, and I put a little wink...oh, never mind. HIGHLY ILLOGICAL BEHAVIOR, CAPTAIN 
On this issue, I'd like to think that even the bridge shaft isn't a single-lane bottleneck, but features side alcoves at each deck level to allow other cabs to pass. Indeed, I'd like to believe in a branching point on Deck 2 already, so that the later refitting of a second lift station on Deck 1 becomes a trivial matter...
We should remember that Lokai and Bele were able to chase each other from the bridge in almost back-to-back turbolifts, as if a spare one had been waiting there all along. Definitely a capacity one would want to have in the system!
It would also be nice to have Pike's cabin somewhere there, for a number of reasons... And since Kirk doesn't occupy that cabin any more, he might have donated it to VIP use.
Or at least some sort of spare quarters, to meet the dialogue requirements of "The Enterprise Incident". Not necessarily VIP; perhaps the labs have adjoining quarters for visiting scientists, and none were visiting at that time?
Of course, Deck 2 might be where Spock had his personal office at that time. That would satisfy both FJ fans and fans of the theory that Spock did have an active sex life after all...
Seriously, forks, I'd be quite ready to ignore any possible faint acoustic cues of continuing turbolift travel, if ignoring them allowed me to believe that the lift ride from Deck 1 to Deck 2 took just a couple of seconds of actual travel time.
Timo Saloniemi
Here's a sketch of possible ways to modify FJ's deck two plans to include a cabin? They could be guest quarters, a capt's day cabin or just a place for overworked lab techs to catch a few Z's while staying close to thair experiments.
http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv73/tin_man_2009/Picture048.jpg
http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv73/tin_man_2009/Picture048.jpg
I'd rather go all the way and rearrange those decks so that they would accurately feature the "The Cage" briefing room instead of FJ's merely suggestive lounge table on Deck 2; would faithfully reproduce the corridors surrounding said briefing room; and would faithfully reproduce the corridors leading to Pike's cabin on Deck 3, and possibly feature other senior officers' quarters on that deck as well.
After all, the relatively compact sets of "The Cage" are compatible with the dimensions of those decks, and thus IMHO worth the effort.
Perhaps NCC-1700 simply was a more sciences-oriented vessel than NCC-1701, and dedicated more space to laboratories and less to crew amenities? NCC-1701 would have plenty of room for labs in the saucer even with the given general layout, and much more if crew were housed in bunk beds, ST6 style, rather than in staterooms which in TOS were only seen used by officers.
Timo Saloniemi
After all, the relatively compact sets of "The Cage" are compatible with the dimensions of those decks, and thus IMHO worth the effort.
Perhaps NCC-1700 simply was a more sciences-oriented vessel than NCC-1701, and dedicated more space to laboratories and less to crew amenities? NCC-1701 would have plenty of room for labs in the saucer even with the given general layout, and much more if crew were housed in bunk beds, ST6 style, rather than in staterooms which in TOS were only seen used by officers.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, I'd say that the most likely ideal places for integrating the pilot ep's. round briefing room (in FJ's plans) would be either under the bridge, in then higher higher bridge dome, or preferably, in the center of deck four (replacing FJ's 'series style' BR).
If I were doing new plans from scratch, I'd favor puting the labs on the lower saucer decks, say, 9 or 10, then have the decks in the command superstructure used for administrative stuff?
As for the 1st pilot's set layout, as I understand it, the briefing room and Pike's quarters were on opposite ends of a short straight hallway, with the transporter set off to one side of the same hallway? Does anyone have plans of these (original or reconstructed)?
That's certainly what it looks like - although I think the aired segments don't reveal that the corridor with the quarters is the same as the corridor with the transporter room (that is, the door sign to Pike's cabin remains hidden). So I'd like to have Pike's cabin behind the forward windows of the superstructure, with possibly other officers' quarters behind the side windows... And the briefing room would then have to go a bit farther aft than the directly-under-bridge ideal.
Incidentally, this would also mean that the turbolift is indeed a bit to the side (rather than the bridge being rotated) so that the turboshaft would clear the central corridor on the Captain's Quarters & Briefing Room deck...
Timo Saloniemi
Definitely. I'd have the bridge at a much lower level in any case, perhaps sunken half a deck like CRA has suggested - in which case the turboshaft wouldn't be visible through the dome at all.
In that setup, the bump at the back could be a sensor dome of some sort. however, it could also be an interface between the ship's turboshaft network and that of a starbase, in case the ship docked with such a base. When not docked, this little "side track" would serve as the perfect holding position for the spare turbolift that waits at Deck 1 level...
The sunken bridge theory would carry on to the TOS movies, where such a setup is required for the repositioned turbolifts of ST4,5 and 6. It would also make the ST:TMP setup more reasonable: the airlock at the back would be turbolift-accessible, not because a turbolift that pivots around while staying otherwise put is cool and clever (it's not), but because going to the airlock means going up from the bridge level.
Timo Saloniemi
In that setup, the bump at the back could be a sensor dome of some sort. however, it could also be an interface between the ship's turboshaft network and that of a starbase, in case the ship docked with such a base. When not docked, this little "side track" would serve as the perfect holding position for the spare turbolift that waits at Deck 1 level...
The sunken bridge theory would carry on to the TOS movies, where such a setup is required for the repositioned turbolifts of ST4,5 and 6. It would also make the ST:TMP setup more reasonable: the airlock at the back would be turbolift-accessible, not because a turbolift that pivots around while staying otherwise put is cool and clever (it's not), but because going to the airlock means going up from the bridge level.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo,
In part that's dependent on fitting the bridge into the surrounding structure, the total height of the turbolift cars, and whether there is a wrap around external area for repairing consoles. Of course, my natural tendency is to allow more than a bit of TAS in as canon and exclude other parts of Trek that are not in Continuity, but the franchise has the opposite perspective.
My own viewpoint is that the cars can move fairly fast, so the second someone enters one on the Bridge another nearby in the system is dispatched to that destination, and that there would be reserve areas (just not necessarily at the Bridge deck, though I'm not ruling it out). In any case, reserve cars are a moot point if the problem is a car blocking the downward shaft between Decks 1 and 2, unless you add a second vertical turbolift shaft.
Well, there are spare quarters, they just aren't better (and presumably aren't as good) as officer quarters already occupied. If its a question of furnishings, those could be replicated, so there has to be a bit more of a reason for Uhura's quarters been borrowed in EoT. If Pike's quarters still existed, and were still a stateroom, those presumably would have been used unless they were in an unsafe part of the ship, in which case they would have been unsuitable for their original purpose. The implication would be that they no longer exist in the original Pilot configuration.
Well, yes, that's a possibility: that Spock was stopping at his office (or somewhere else) on Deck 2 to pick something up, and the quarters are actually elsewhere. Unless it was something for the Commander it would seem an inappropriate time to be doing so, as the task can be accomplished a few minutes after dropping her off. The problem is the turbolift ride, which if my ears aren't deceiving me, is long indicating continuous movement. But if we ignore that, and presume that they are stopping briefly on Deck 2, such as to tour the science labs, ultimately we are back to the same conclusion: the "guest" quarters are elsewhere.
I haven't seen drawings for Pilot-only sets. Do we have copies of the originals or has someone worked them out? I would be very grateful for any information, and I'm sure Tin_Man would be as well.
The problem isn't FJ, I think its the text description of the ship from the writer's guide in TMoST that put the labs where they are. It doesn't rule out the inclusion of other rooms (be it photon torpedo tubes or Captain's quarters, briefing rooms, etc.) its just that there is little room to squeeze more than the labs in. But in terms of the interior of the ship, the changes to the studio model are going to most impact Deck 1 and probably Deck 2, so the Pilot may be an apples and oranges comparison to the Production version.
I'm not sure how many on screen indicators there are that these are all on the same deck, irregardless of actual set proximity on the studio stage. The "whatsit" hanging down over the table and the support structures on the periphery, are hard to explain unless you posit a non-flat deck above intruding downward into the lower compartment. A description that fits the Bridge "con well", though this is just a theory. So, if for the Pilots, we are going to have the briefing room on Deck 2 as well as the Captain's quarters, then I would put the latter aft and the former forward, but I am willing to look at evidence to the contrary. But this doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the Production layout.
Tin_Man,
I guess the main issue would be that Deck 2 is not a "safe" area of the ship, i.e., lots of walls and compartments between the VIP cabin and potential weapons fire (etc.). How does this cabin compare in size to the normal ones?
Technically, its already at the back of the bridge dome. At the moment, working with Shaw's internal use of the Bridge, I'm concerned there isn't enough room for the Bridge to work with the "FJ" turbolift arrangement. If you move the turbolift this problem becomes worse. Now Dave's layout may not be correct because at one point he was advocating resizing the set plans to "fit" the size of the ship (which is definitely not what I would normally suggest). I have no particular problems with somewhat intruding the Bridge into Deck 2, but if you do half a deck with the production version you pretty much make Deck 2 unusable and you are back to a MJ 1967 or Dave Shaw arrangement of the command pod (i.e., the Bridge, and one full supporting deck).
From what I remember (imperfectly from years ago), at least some (all?) of CRA's ideas regarding the Bridge and its location required using a 1080' version of the ship. Now I'm not current on his thinking on this, and I don't mean to misrepresent him, so he can correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm not, I'm not particularly in favor of resizing the ship (from the decision that was made during the production of the series -- 947' length) in order to allow the sinking and rotating of the Bridge. MJ apparently planned the lift to be at the back of the Bridge set, this was changed prior to the Bridge set being built, consequently the Bridge is rotated, and MJ 1967 cross-section seems to indicate that even in later versions of the ship design MJ had (like it or not) accepted this idea. Just as depicted by FJ.
In part that's dependent on fitting the bridge into the surrounding structure, the total height of the turbolift cars, and whether there is a wrap around external area for repairing consoles. Of course, my natural tendency is to allow more than a bit of TAS in as canon and exclude other parts of Trek that are not in Continuity, but the franchise has the opposite perspective.
My own viewpoint is that the cars can move fairly fast, so the second someone enters one on the Bridge another nearby in the system is dispatched to that destination, and that there would be reserve areas (just not necessarily at the Bridge deck, though I'm not ruling it out). In any case, reserve cars are a moot point if the problem is a car blocking the downward shaft between Decks 1 and 2, unless you add a second vertical turbolift shaft.
It would also be nice to have Pike's cabin somewhere there, for a number of reasons... And since Kirk doesn't occupy that cabin any more, he might have donated it to VIP use.
[...]
Or at least some sort of spare quarters, to meet the dialogue requirements of "The Enterprise Incident". Not necessarily VIP; perhaps the labs have adjoining quarters for visiting scientists, and none were visiting at that time?
Well, there are spare quarters, they just aren't better (and presumably aren't as good) as officer quarters already occupied. If its a question of furnishings, those could be replicated, so there has to be a bit more of a reason for Uhura's quarters been borrowed in EoT. If Pike's quarters still existed, and were still a stateroom, those presumably would have been used unless they were in an unsafe part of the ship, in which case they would have been unsuitable for their original purpose. The implication would be that they no longer exist in the original Pilot configuration.
Well, yes, that's a possibility: that Spock was stopping at his office (or somewhere else) on Deck 2 to pick something up, and the quarters are actually elsewhere. Unless it was something for the Commander it would seem an inappropriate time to be doing so, as the task can be accomplished a few minutes after dropping her off. The problem is the turbolift ride, which if my ears aren't deceiving me, is long indicating continuous movement. But if we ignore that, and presume that they are stopping briefly on Deck 2, such as to tour the science labs, ultimately we are back to the same conclusion: the "guest" quarters are elsewhere.
I haven't seen drawings for Pilot-only sets. Do we have copies of the originals or has someone worked them out? I would be very grateful for any information, and I'm sure Tin_Man would be as well.
The problem isn't FJ, I think its the text description of the ship from the writer's guide in TMoST that put the labs where they are. It doesn't rule out the inclusion of other rooms (be it photon torpedo tubes or Captain's quarters, briefing rooms, etc.) its just that there is little room to squeeze more than the labs in. But in terms of the interior of the ship, the changes to the studio model are going to most impact Deck 1 and probably Deck 2, so the Pilot may be an apples and oranges comparison to the Production version.
I'm not sure how many on screen indicators there are that these are all on the same deck, irregardless of actual set proximity on the studio stage. The "whatsit" hanging down over the table and the support structures on the periphery, are hard to explain unless you posit a non-flat deck above intruding downward into the lower compartment. A description that fits the Bridge "con well", though this is just a theory. So, if for the Pilots, we are going to have the briefing room on Deck 2 as well as the Captain's quarters, then I would put the latter aft and the former forward, but I am willing to look at evidence to the contrary. But this doesn't necessarily tell us anything about the Production layout.
+++++++++
Tin_Man,
I guess the main issue would be that Deck 2 is not a "safe" area of the ship, i.e., lots of walls and compartments between the VIP cabin and potential weapons fire (etc.). How does this cabin compare in size to the normal ones?
Technically, its already at the back of the bridge dome. At the moment, working with Shaw's internal use of the Bridge, I'm concerned there isn't enough room for the Bridge to work with the "FJ" turbolift arrangement. If you move the turbolift this problem becomes worse. Now Dave's layout may not be correct because at one point he was advocating resizing the set plans to "fit" the size of the ship (which is definitely not what I would normally suggest). I have no particular problems with somewhat intruding the Bridge into Deck 2, but if you do half a deck with the production version you pretty much make Deck 2 unusable and you are back to a MJ 1967 or Dave Shaw arrangement of the command pod (i.e., the Bridge, and one full supporting deck).
From what I remember (imperfectly from years ago), at least some (all?) of CRA's ideas regarding the Bridge and its location required using a 1080' version of the ship. Now I'm not current on his thinking on this, and I don't mean to misrepresent him, so he can correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm not, I'm not particularly in favor of resizing the ship (from the decision that was made during the production of the series -- 947' length) in order to allow the sinking and rotating of the Bridge. MJ apparently planned the lift to be at the back of the Bridge set, this was changed prior to the Bridge set being built, consequently the Bridge is rotated, and MJ 1967 cross-section seems to indicate that even in later versions of the ship design MJ had (like it or not) accepted this idea. Just as depicted by FJ.
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