What was up with the B&B hate back in the 90's & 00's?

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Are you sure you're not thinking of Insurrection? I know that in INS Geordi says that Data didn't take his emotion chip with him. But I don't remember seeing anything like that in the Deleted Scenes for Nemesis.

The emotion chip arc goes like this: In an early S4 episode (Brothers), Soong summons Data to install the finished emotion chip. Lore tricks Soong, gets the emotion chip, fatally injures Soong, and leaves. Presumably, Soong wasn't left to just die on the floor and likely died peacefully in his bed, hoping Data would find Lore once more. Lore returns in the S6 finale for the "Descent" two-parter, using the emotion chip against Data. By the end of Part 2, Lore is defeated and deactivated, the emotion chip recovered, but damaged. Data was going to destroy it, but Geordi convinces him maybe someday.

A year later in GEN, Data says screw it and has Geordi install the chip. Dr. Crusher says it fused to his neural net and cannot be removed, but by the film's end, she figured out how, and Data decided to keep it installed. Two years later in FC, it's revealed Data figured out how to turn it on and off. The emotion chip is a major part of Data's character arc in both films.

In INS, all we get is Picard asking if it's the emotion chip, and Geordi saying he didn't take it with him. In NEM, a deleted scene reveals it's not even installed anymore.

 

[Lord Garth]

In INS, all we get is Picard asking if it's the emotion chip, and Geordi saying he didn't take it with him. In NEM, a deleted scene reveals it's not even installed anymore.

Looks like I have another reason to watch the deleted scenes again!

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Looks like I have another reason to watch the deleted scenes again!

As far as I can remember, none of them are contradicted in Picard except maybe the Wesley cameo. They are really good, give them a go.

 

[James Cole]

I never thought about until just now, but you're right. And it makes sense considering Ron Moore wanted to zig everywhere in BSG that VOY zagged.

And Michael Taylor was a writer on the second half of BSG as well, so it wouldn't just be RDM with the VGR influence. And it's been years since I read the RDM post-VGR interview, but I specifically remember him mentioning that Taylor and Bryan Fuller took a lot of shit in the VGR writers room.

Circling back to the overall thread topic...

DS9 at first was the Berman Era bastard step child. But by DS9 season 4, that show got really really good. Hell, DS9 season 4 might be one of the best Berman Era seasons in terms of having overall great episodes, with few if any lame / bad ones (only TNG season 3 potentially tops it). For the second half of DS9, the only really bad episodes were the ones where Ira Steven Behr got a little too self indulgent (like the hit or miss Ferengi ones).

VGR always had potential, but would take the wrong lessons from things that didn't work, like dumping arcs when the Kazon one sputtered out. By the end of DS9, the roles has reversed and VGR was the bastard step child, in this case TNG lite. When DS9 was over and people learned RDM was moving over to VGR, expectations were raised that the commonly held complaints about VGR might be addressed, especially now that VGR would be the only game in town. But instead, VGR ended up doubling down, leading to laments from critics like Jammer that nothing was improving and it was yet another iteration of VGR season 4, just with less great episodes. I've never rewatched seasons 6 and 7 since they originally aired. Hell, I've probably only seen "Endgame" once!

The Berman Era had an amazing collection of writers. Many who went on to be very successful showrunners in their own right. But I think many fans would have preferred someone like RDM or Rene Echevarria be the one to co-create "Series V", not Braga. It's not like ENT brought along the best long established writers from DS9 or VGR either (no shade on Mike Sussman, but he was only on staff for the final season of VGR at the time).

ENT on the other hand seems to have aged a lot better than VGR. Off the bat, it's in 16:9 HD. Season 1 at least has a fresh viewpoint on space exploration being new. Season 3 has the season long arc. Season 4 has (great) fan service. ENT S2 is the odd one out. It's more TNG season 7 than TNG 7 in its collection of aggressively mediocre episodes.

 

[publiusr]

Braga leaned a bit towards horror IIRC.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Braga leaned a bit towards horror IIRC.

I always loved his darker WTF Trek episodes.

 

[The Wormhole]

Braga leaned a bit towards horror IIRC.

He is a fan of horror movies and always tried to bring horror influences to his episodes.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Which may explain why I have never been a fan. I despise horror movies.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Braga's gone on record to admit that the script for Generations suffered being written back-to-back with the TNG finale. Honestly, I think he and Moore were just on burn out and turned out the best they could.

The Generations script was written between seasons 6 and 7, with revisions during the early part of season 7. "All Good Things..." was written shortly before its filming and well after Generations. Film pre-production is a longer process than television pre-production. If Braga said that, "back-to-back," he exaggerates wildly.

Everyone loves First Contact.

I'm not a fan of the film. Goldsmith's overture, yes. The story? A misfire, a tonal mess. The direction? Uninspiring. Had it been a television film, I would be more forgiving. As the film for the 30th-anniversary in 1996, it's a failure.

Perhaps controversially I like Nemesis most. I'd not claim it was the best though.

It has the ambition to break the toys that the films after Generations did not. That, imho, is the virtue of Nemesis.

 

[suarezguy]

What was up with the B&B hate back in the 90's & 00's? The Berman-era of Star Trek was 1987-2005. Generally, people are fans of TNG and DS9. Braga's gone on record to admit that the script for Generations suffered being written back-to-back with the TNG finale. Honestly, I think he and Moore were just on burn out and turned out the best they could. Everyone loves First Contact. Next up, Voyager: the first three seasons were pretty good, no? From Enterprise, fans seem to love the Xindi saga and the final season.

The Era of B&B Hate seems to specifically be 1997 to 2003, VOY S4-7 (including Insurrection) & ENT S1-2 (including Nemesis).

What did I miss? Please, no trash talking of B&B here and now in November 2024. I'm hoping to have a retrospective look at the VOY & ENT years and why the B&B hate back then.

I think really throughout Voyager there was a lot of (although increasing) feelings of pretty big missed opportunity, not as good as it could have/should have been, with particularly some comparisons of it should have been more like/made more like Deep Space Nine, darker with more conflict and continuity.

Enterprise there were some big fans early as well many who just stopped watching/commentating but there was also particular also particular criticism/vitriol from that it was too much series in a row and particularly that it was too much more TNG/Voyager style (which even most of its big fans had gotten tired of) and even more particularly that it was that rather than being a lot more like the original series which a lot of original series-most or only fans wanted, expected, thought should be expected with a prequel.

With them specifically Braga was only showrunner of Voyager show for seasons 4-6 but he was a huge contributor to/influence on it from the first regular episode and he did seem to have pretty much same mindset as previous runners who probably were more and more influenced by him (Taylor I think just choosing him and easily transitioning to him) so understandable he would get some blame for whole thing, and then he and Berman did seem particularly active with Enterprise (and they had been big in the series for real long). Some of the vitriol got excessive but it also was definitely understandable that fans would dislike the franchise going on so long and repetitively/rehashy and they thought worse.

It is weird that Behr and Moore and maybe Piller did manage to get most of the credit for what was liked, Piller, Taylor, Menosky not a lot of blame but there was and over time has been more understanding that some of the disliked aspects were from what studio executives wanted/expected/demanded.

Nemesis is kind of interesting in that most fans knew, admitted that Braga wasn't involved, it was mostly from the outsiders that some said would, must be able to do something much better, and yet Berman also very involved, given what was being made with Enterprise I don't think it's wrong to expect that if he had also been involved it also would have been bad, even to as is consider it as part of same era.

 

[suarezguy]

Some people need a villain. So every poor decision got put on B&B, and any good decision was something that somehow got past them. (That's not to say neither of them ever made poor decisions, they absolutely did in my opinion.)

The same thing still happens, just with different names. Same as it ever was.

I think Roddenberry actually gets pretty villainized for while, still now, even without him being in charge, making new stuff for while . He did get a lot of backlash, in part justified for blowing his own horn a bit too much and not giving credit to others but for a while there's a lot of claiming that he did, deserves credit for very little, that everything good he made was more made/improved by others.

I remember reading almost word for word the same arguments against Bermaga that I then saw against Abrams and now see against Kurtzman. And some of those people now defend Bermaga's Trek. The same Trek they trashed back in the day is now the epitome of Trek because they have a new villain who "is destroying Star Trek".

Berman and Braga particularly there was a lot of feeling that they were bad, doing wrong because they didn't love/like/respect the original series so they shouldn't be involved; they did freely admit that they didn't idolize it (pretty few professionals would), and Abrams that he was much more of a Star Wars fan, should be more like that. Don't think there are now many people who now say Voyager or Enterprise were great but some have said it wasn't that bad, there are more good moments/aspects than they gave credit for, yes it could have been worse.

 

[The Wormhole]

Nemesis is kind of interesting in that most fans knew, admitted that Braga wasn't involved,

Eh, the few fans who knew Braga wasn't involved with Nemesis still tried to find a way to twist that into slandering him. I remember when Nemesis was filming, someone made the comment "I heard Braga just doesn't give a shit anymore and chose a fan to write the new movie's script." Obviously embellishing the fact that John Logan was a Trek fan despite also being a professional script writer. Never mind the fact the choosing the writer for Nemesis would have been Berman's job, not Braga's.

But then, everyone always assumed Braga's job was larger than it actually was. Like when Star Trek The Beginning was being talked about in 2006, I pointed out Braga had no involvement in that movie even though Berman did. The response from many was "but Braga is Berman's production partner. How can he not be involved in something like this?"

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I think really throughout Voyager there was a lot of (although increasing) feelings of pretty big missed opportunity, not as good as it could have/should have been, with particularly some comparisons of it should have been more like/made more like Deep Space Nine, darker with more conflict and continuity.

Did people not understand that UPN basically said no to story arcs? Stuff like the Kazon in S2 and the Hirogen in S4 is as close to story arcs as the show was ging to get.

Enterprise there were some big fans early as well many who just stopped watching/commentating but there was also particular also particular criticism/vitriol from that it was too much series in a row and particularly that it was too much more TNG/Voyager style (which even most of its big fans had gotten tired of) and even more particularly that it was that rather than being a lot more like the original series which a lot of original series-most or only fans wanted, expected, thought should be expected with a prequel.

We circle back to UPN; they were doing another show after Voyager with or without Berman. They also wanted it to be in the same vein as TNG-DS9-VOY.

With them specifically Braga was only showrunner of Voyager show for seasons 4-6 but he was a huge contributor to/influence on it from the first regular episode and he did seem to have pretty much same mindset as previous runners who probably were more and more influenced by him (Taylor I think just choosing him and easily transitioning to him) so understandable he would get some blame for whole thing, and then he and Berman did seem particularly active with Enterprise (and they had been big in the series for real long). Some of the vitriol got excessive but it also was definitely understandable that fans would dislike the franchise going on so long and repetitively/rehashy and they thought worse.

It seems like the anger should have been network/studio directed rather than B&B.

It is weird that Behr and Moore and maybe Piller did manage to get most of the credit for what was liked, Piller, Taylor, Menosky not a lot of blame but there was and over time has been more understanding that some of the disliked aspects were from what studio executives wanted/expected/demanded.

Keep in mind, TNG and DS9 were syndicated, and the studio had a "do whatever" attitude. Meanwhile, VOY and ENT were on UPN. The network gave VOY creative freedom but mandated an episodic "for reruns" mandate. The network really clamped down on Enterprise during it's first 2 years, Braga explains this on the Blu-rays. Come S3, UPN said do whatever to save the show, hence the Xindi saga. S4 only happened to appease the studio so there'd be enough episodes for reruns. S5 was never on the table.

Nemesis is kind of interesting in that most fans knew, admitted that Braga wasn't involved, it was mostly from the outsiders that some said would, must be able to do something much better, and yet Berman also very involved, given what was being made with Enterprise I don't think it's wrong to expect that if he had also been involved it also would have been bad, even to as is consider it as part of same era.

The first 3 TNG films came out in 94, 96, 98; and they were brimming with excitement. Just 4 years later, we get a 4th movie, and even in the previews, it just looked old and tired. I blame the director. The TNG cast had more "energy" (for lack of better words) in PIC S3 then they did 20+ years before in Nemesis.

 

[James Cole]

Which may explain why I have never been a fan. I despise horror movies.

Same here, especially anything with body horror or torture porn. Hell, I only saw the Alien films proper this decade.

 

[The Wormhole]

Come S3, UPN said do whatever to save the show, hence the Xindi saga.

Not exactly. The ratings were taking a plunge, and due to the popularity of serialized shows like 24, UPN decided "let's give a season long arc a shot." Which led to the Xindi.

S4 only happened to appease the studio so there'd be enough episodes for reruns.

They already enough for syndication as of S3, given there were 76 episodes at that point, only three less than TOS.

S5 was never on the table.

A fifth season was being planned. Manny Coto revealed plans to make Shran main cast as well as story plans for a visit to Stratos, something involving T'Pol's father and another Mirror Universe episode (which was later turned into a novel).

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Not exactly. The ratings were taking a plunge, and due to the popularity of serialized shows like 24, UPN decided "let's give a season long arc a shot." Which led to the Xindi.

That's not the story Braga share don the Blu-rays for S2 or 3. UPN backed off with a "do wha'cha gotta do" attitude. The Xindi saga is all Braga in that it's the "Year of Hell" he wanted to do on Voyager, but reworked for Enterprise, complete with the ship being trashed for the back chunk of the season.

They already enough for syndication as of S3, given there were 76 episodes at that point, only three less than TOS.

Back in the 90's and 00's, the goal for a TV series was generally to go about 100 episodes, that was generally considered the magic number for reruns.

A fifth season was being planned. Manny Coto revealed plans to make Shran main cast as well as story plans for a visit to Stratos, something involving T'Pol's father and another Mirror Universe episode (which was later turned into a novel).

That's nice that Coto had plans, S5 was never going to happen. Network and studio politics killed the show more than anything else. Basically, the show lost its backers at the studio. You can read about it here. Additionally, there were changes over at UPN too. Give this a read:

In 2001, UPN entered into a public bidding war to acquire two series from The WB – Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Roswell – from producing studio 20th Century Fox Television. UPN eventually outbid The WB for the shows and aired them together on Tuesday nights until Roswell ended its run in 2002; Buffy ended its run the following year. In January 2002, Viacom President and COO, Mel Karmazin restructured the network, resulting in UPN being taken out of the ownership of Paramount Television, and being placed under the oversight of CBS Television, with CBS President Leslie Moonves being given responsibility for the network. Under CBS, new shows began to breathe life into the network starting in Fall 2003 with America's Next Top Model and sitcom All of Us (which was produced by Will and Jada Pinkett Smith), followed up by the Fall 2004 premiere of the mystery series Veronica Mars and the Fall 2005 premiere of the sitcom Everybody Hates Chris, produced and narrated by Chris Rock. (source)

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Ron Moore said flat out that B&B didn't like TOS, they didn't understand it, and that if they wanted to create a series that took place before TOS (which turned out to be ENT), they'd better have a change of attitude.

From that statement alone, it explains why their run with the Star Trek property was largely anemic, and to this day, none of it is the face of the franchise, nor did it become the cultural phenomenon like the series they did not like. Wonderfully fitting legacy for those two and their underwhelming effect on Star Trek.

ENT was dead to me on arrival

Any obvious attempt to be a prequel, yet rewrite TOS was a failure in concept and most of its paltry execution--and its just icing on the cake that ENT's most popular and memorable episode was a two-parter based on a TOS episode, set on a TOS ship.

 

[Lord Garth]

Any obvious attempt to be a prequel, yet rewrite TOS was a failure in concept and most of its paltry execution--and its just icing on the cake that ENT's most popular and memorable episode was a two-parter based on a TOS episode, set on a TOS ship.

My take on prequels in general is that it's like someone walking backwards and bumping into everything.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

My take on prequels in general is that it's like someone walking backwards and bumping into everything.

I like prequels - when there's a good story to tell.

 

[HotRod]

and its just icing on the cake that ENT's most popular and memorable episode was a two-parter based on a TOS episode, set on a TOS ship.

It was a fun novelty.