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Romulans And Mating...

My memory may be off, but I don't recall any of the shows mentioning the Romulans having the same 7 year cycle that affects Vulcans.

Given how close their physiologies are, I wonder if the Romulans have the same 7 year cycle or maybe they evolved past it.

Thoughts? And if it was mentioned in a series, please feel free to correct me.

I'm surprised the Vulcans hadn't. But then there'd be no Vulcans. All species do it, in one form or another, even via test tubes like in "The Outcast" since, like the sentiment from Bender the robot in "Futurama", some societies find the swapping of DNA to be offensive and gross and diseases and cooties and things. They'd have their own rituals and/or practices and with everybody already taken aback over those evil beakers and Bunsen burners concocting one's kid, the same trope wouldn't have the staying power of the much-overused "A pile of circuits is a sentient being", which morphed into hologram rights for VOY and because the ship was generating the hologram and nobody talked about the ship...
 
Hmm. In "Amok Time", there's no mention of sex, obviously enough. Only about finding a mate. No cycle is suggested, either; when this follows in "The Cloud Minders", there's still no suggestion that it is connected to sex. To keep the censors happy, it's all about mating in the sense of finding a mate.

Agreed. Though given the specific words and context used it is clear that what is being referred to reproduction.

Although funnily enough, we see pon farr on screen three times [...], and it never leads to sex (or death) in those instances. Nor in the couple of instances off camera but in dialogue.

Well to be fair in Spock's case everyone there believed it lead to Kirk's death, and it would have if it hadn't been for McCoy's shenanigans. In Voyager's "Body and Soul", it's made pretty clear that Tuvok and the hologram of his wife had the "S" word.

Nowhere is it suggested that Vulcanoids would need to be in pon farr to get horny or drunk, though.

I disagree. While it may not be explicitly stated in dialogue, I think it is strongly suggested that the the mating drive(being horny) is a once in seven year thing. We even learn from Tuvok that the once in seven years feeling of horniness increases in Vulcanian males as they age.

It seems instead that Saavik has sex with Spock easily enough at a totally random stage of her life in ST3.

I while not explicitly stated I think it could be rationally argued that Pon Farr is something only Vulcanian males undergo. This incident you cite would be good evidence for this. Further evidence would be T'Pring's actions in Amok Time.

And nobody refers to seven dry years between intercourse, ever.

Why would they? For humans, having sex only once in seven years would be unusual. While a sexually active human having intercourse a couple time per week would be considered normal. A Vulcanian having sex only once every seven years would likewise be considered normal. They would be no more considered "dry years" than monday-wednesday would be considered dry days.

Whether the Vulcanoids have a "reproductive cycle" at all is unknown. If they have one, there's no evidence it would involve seven-year intervals; no siblings are defined as being separated by exact multiples of seven years, say.

The discussion Kirk and Spock have is specifically under the context of reproduction. Though, the seven years cycle doesn't come up until "The Cloud Minders" in which it is "taking a mate" and "the mating drive."

The sibling point is interesting. How many cases of Vulcanian siblings do we have?

Not quite. Vulcans have to mate every seven years when their pon farr cycle hits. Doesn't mean they can't (or don't) mate in-between times.

We are specifically told they take a mate (have sex) once every seven years. The only this that can disturb this cycle is "extreme feminine beauty".

Vulcans can have sex any time they want. The point of pon farr is that at that time, they MUST have sex. That's the difference.

I don't think we have evidence that this is the case. We know that Pon Farr is specifically related to mating, meaning reproduction.

Edit: Ninja'd. :lol:

As for Romulans: I always assumed that they don't have pon farr, simply because they always express their emotions. Vulcans have it because their emotions are suppressed. That's why they have pon farr - to let off steam, as it were. (Kind of like the Red Hour/Festival on Beta III. That's their emotional release.)

Pon Farr is stated as being biological. While in the rest of their lives Vulcanians can hide their emotions, this biological response rips that logical vernier from them. It's not something that can be overcome through culture.


Well, I guess that resolves it.
 
Vulcans are all about suppressing their emotions, so it makes sense, to me, that the average Vulcan would have absolutely no problem suppressing his or her sex drive for seven years.

That's the average Vulcan. Vulcans like Sarek (who took human wives) or half-Vulcans like Spock (who wasn't even sure he'd ever get pon farr) probably have sex more often, whenever it is the logical thing to do. I.e. to please the wife.

Likewise, Vulcans who have fertility issues may up the quota of copulation, although I think they're more likely to get that business done in a lab.

And Vulcans who deny Surak's teachings, or interpret them differently (V'tosh ka'tur or Sybok) will no doubt do whatever comes natural to them.

That's just my opinion.
 
"Every seven years, Vulcan males and females become aroused. They undergo a blood fever, become violent, and finally die unless they mate with someone with whom they are empathically bonded or engage in a ritual battle known as kal-if-fee.

A common misconception associated with the series (and Spock in particular) is that Vulcans only have sex once every seven years. However, pon farr is not coincident with the sex lives of Vulcans, and they are able to have intercourse without the affliction, and thus more than once every seven years. Star Trek: The Original Series writer and continuity story editor D. C. Fontana explains that pon farr is not the only time that Vulcans feel sexual desire or engage in sexual activity:

Vulcans mate normally any time they want to. However, every seven years you do the ritual, the ceremony, the whole thing. The biological urge. You must, but any other time is any other emotion—humanoid emotion—when you're in love. When you want to, you know when the urge is there, you do it. This every-seven-years business was taken too literally by too many people who don't stop and understand. We didn't mean it only every seven years. I mean, every seven years would be a little bad, and it would not explain the Vulcans of many different ages which are not seven years apart.[1]

Vulcans not only are able to mate outside pon farr, they are also able to mate with species other than Vulcan: e.g., in Star Trek: The Original Series, Spock's parents are human/vulcan couple; in Star Trek: Enterprise, T'pol, a Vulcan, has a romantic and sexual relationship with Trip, a human; and, in the Star Trek reboot, Spock is in a relationship with Lt. Uhura"

But I bet some fans will insist on knowing more about this fictional issue than the people who created it
 
Creator intent is irrelevant when it comes to canon. Only what is seen on screen matters.
So yes, we can know more than the fictional issues creators.
In that case T'Pol was more than capable having sex outside of Ponn Farr I doubt she was unique on that score. Besides what is seen on screen is contradictory, do you also believe Amanda hated sex or used a Vulcan dildo in between Sarek's Ponn Farr?
 
Besides what is seen on screen is contradictory,
Are you speaking generally or specifically concerning Pon Farr?

do you also believe Amanda hated sex or used a Vulcan dildo in between Sarek's Ponn Farr?
I really don't care what a fictional character's specific sexual habits are, so I don't have an opinion on that.
 
Agreed. Though given the specific words and context used it is clear that what is being referred to reproduction.

...Especially considering that Spock had already found a mate - the whole blood fever was because he was being drawn to his preselected female counterpart. Otherwise, he would supposedly have resolved the issue by giving Christine Chapel what she most wanted, and sent T'Pring a postcard.

I disagree. While it may not be explicitly stated in dialogue, I think it is strongly suggested that the the mating drive(being horny) is a once in seven year thing. We even learn from Tuvok that the once in seven years feeling of horniness increases in Vulcanian males as they age.

Yet all this only points to pon farr making mating imperative, not to the logical opposite of mating being dependent on pon farr.

while not explicitly stated I think it could be rationally argued that Pon Farr is something only Vulcanian males undergo. This incident you cite would be good evidence for this. Further evidence would be T'Pring's actions in Amok Time.

Yet T'Pol is crazy with lust in "Bounty" and specifies this to be pon farr, a cyclic thing affecting all Vulcans. None of the other evidence or lack thereof manages to contradict this.

All she stops short of establishing is that the female cycle would be seven years long. And thankfully so. It's already pretty bad that mating and subsequent procreation would depend on the synchronizing of cycles: humans manage it with 27 days and a large number of potential partners, but Vulcans in their isolated desert villages and 2500-day cycles would really be up the creek without water.

Which may be why there's this mental bonding thing: in order to be able to procreate at all, Vulcans have to prearrange decades in advance.

But, as you say, T'Pring shows no signs of pon farr, now that thanks to T'Pol we can recognize the signs. So either matched cycles are unlikely to be a thing, or then T'Pring managed to shake off her pon farr a tad sooner than Spock, who himself recovered in an eyeblink in that episode.

A Vulcanian having sex only once every seven years would likewise be considered normal. They would be no more considered "dry years" than monday-wednesday would be considered dry days.

Yet the lack of reference to such cannot be used as evidence for lack of constant sex, no matter which way one looks at it.

The sibling point is interesting. How many cases of Vulcanian siblings do we have?

We don't know the age difference between Sybok and Spock, but DSC might well soon tell. Tuvok had four children, and special mention was made of the youngest having been born out of Tuvok's eleventh pon farr. Nothing suggests that the other three were born out of pon farrs, though - or that Spock, Sybok, Tuvok, Sarek or any other Vulcan would have been conceived during a bout of blood fever.

We are specifically told they take a mate (have sex) once every seven years. The only this that can disturb this cycle is "extreme feminine beauty".

Well, that's one interpretation. But Sarek didn't take new mates once every seven years as far as we can tell - he only had three that we know of. And Spock doesn't quite claim that last bit.

Droxine: "You only take a mate once every seven years?"
Spock: "The seven-year cycle is biologically inherent in all Vulcans. At that time, the mating drive outweighs all other motivations."
Droxine: "And is there nothing that can disturb that cycle, Mr Spock?"
Spock: "Extreme feminine beauty is always disturbing, Madam."

While Spock here is flirting, he's also being his usual evasive self and probably telling those clever lies Vulcans are famous for. Neither of his answers to a yes-or-no question is a yes or a no, remarkably enough.

Pon Farr is stated as being biological. While in the rest of their lives Vulcanians can hide their emotions, this biological response rips that logical vernier from them. It's not something that can be overcome through culture.

It is only McCoy who speculates that culture and the logic religion is to blame for the Vulcans going mad - and even he is only saying that the role of culture here is to amplify the natural madness, apparently from lust to insanity.

Well, I guess that resolves it.

Banging one's head on a wall might well do the trick, yeah. I mean, if two as utterly dissimilar things as homicide and sex are viable outs from pon farr, then probably just about anything is, including singing real loud or drawing circles in hot sand.

Pon farr just isn't what it's advertised to be. Which may mean McCoy hit the nail in the head: Vulcans only have it so bad because they choose to be so damned ashamed about it. For any other Vulcanoid, it might take an outside observer with medical training to spot the onset of one's pon farr.

Timo Saloniemi
 
You'd have to drag her to Stratos first. Out in the wild, Vulcans clamshell worse than Klingons do when you ask them about the forehead thing.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Vulcans are all about suppressing their emotions, so it makes sense, to me, that the average Vulcan would have absolutely no problem suppressing his or her sex drive for seven years.

Which is why I have a problem with how the Spock Uhura relationship was handled. Either Uhura doesn't have a sex drive or they were attempting to retcon that completely.
 
Spock's half human and he specifically said he thought he might be spared from undergoing pon farr. And 37 is pretty late to be undergoing sexual maturity, so I assume that his pon farr was especially violent and pent up compared to a "regular" one.

As a hybrid, he might have a human sex drive on top of his Vulcan one, explaining relationships with the likes of Leila or Uhura.

We've never seen a regular pon farr. We saw T'Pol's early onset of pon farr in Enterprise, Spock's weird half-human onset of pon farr in TOS (exasperated by being away from Vulcan for so long), Vorik's contagious blood fever on the other side of the galaxy, Tuvok's old age-heightened pon farr later on, and Genesis Spock's unbond teenage pon farr in Search.

Perhaps a regular pon farr on planet Vulcan is a relatively simple "affair", with a little ceremony (depending on how well-off your family is) and a bedding, but otherwise everyone is calm and collected 99% of the time.
 
The romulans either secretly return to Vulcan every 7 years, or they genetically modified themselves not to need to do that.

Vulcans can probably do the same thing, and it's comparable to humans circumcising their own babies for no sensible reason. Sarek being high class and possibly royalty, might have had to be traditional with his children so that they could marry into the same class of uppity snobs that he was.
 
But I bet some fans will insist on knowing more about this fictional issue than the people who created it

I absolutely 100% know more about this fictional issue than the creators, as do many other die-hard fans who watch all the series. And my mind isn't muddled by behind-the-scenes developed ideas of the concept or aborted ideas than never made it to the screen.

Besides what is seen on screen is contradictory, do you also believe Amanda hated sex or used a Vulcan dildo in between Sarek's Ponn Farr?

I disagree with uniderth's understanding, but you seem to be responding to me, so I will reiterate: Sarek and Amanda almost certainly had an active sex life. They were a very close couple per Journey to Babel and this really shouldn't be in dispute.

Vulcans follow logic. They have sex, per D.C. Fontana, whenever they want to. Which, in my assumption based on televised inferences, is only when it is a logical course of action, i.e. when the blood fever sets in, when it is absolutely necessary for procreation, or when it is necessary to maintain a relationship with your partner. Almost anything else would be caving to emotions, which is not kosher on Vulcan.
 
Which is why I have a problem with how the Spock Uhura relationship was handled. Either Uhura doesn't have a sex drive or they were attempting to retcon that completely.
Amanda seemed to manage, besides retconning is a Star Trek norm
 
Spock's half human and he specifically said he thought he might be spared from undergoing pon farr. And 37 is pretty late to be undergoing sexual maturity, so I assume that his pon farr was especially violent and pent up compared to a "regular" one.

As a hybrid, he might have a human sex drive on top of his Vulcan one, explaining relationships with the likes of Leila or Uhura.

We've never seen a regular pon farr. We saw T'Pol's early onset of pon farr in Enterprise, Spock's weird half-human onset of pon farr in TOS (exasperated by being away from Vulcan for so long), Vorik's contagious blood fever on the other side of the galaxy, Tuvok's old age-heightened pon farr later on, and Genesis Spock's unbond teenage pon farr in Search.

Perhaps a regular pon farr on planet Vulcan is a relatively simple "affair", with a little ceremony (depending on how well-off your family is) and a bedding, but otherwise everyone is calm and collected 99% of the time.

The Vulcan Ponn Farr might be the Human version of premature ejaculation, after all its about loss of control, every 7 years the Vulcan male is a 1 minute man, that's why they don't want to talk about it.
 
In my "Head Cannon, which is a 105mm howitzer.."
With the vulcan supression of emotion, the feeling to reproduce has a finite limit at being supressed, so it boils over roughly every 7 years. I suspect, that if a vulcan has a mate and has a steady supply of snu snu, that pon farr doesn't happen, since there is a release for the emotions. Considering that vulcans live past 200, that pon farr happens 30 times in there lives? Bit much? Is there a Vulcan Menopause of pon farr??
So, say there first Pon Farr is at 21, say 7 years after puberty? There's some stuff that meditating can supress the feeling, but I guess that Spock just couldn't handle it on his 3rd pon farr and went crazy, and poor T'pring.. having to wait 30 years..
 
Well that's certainly true on rare occasions.

Yet you are discussing the sexual habits of a fictional race

The world building of the reproductive biology of a fictional race is far more interesting than the personal habits of Amanda.

Speaking of world building there are evolutionary reasons that humans have a desire for such frequent intimacy. In fact human libido levels are more rare in nature, many creatures reproduce seasonally. And it's not as if these creatures have to suppress their desire during the off season. They just don't have it.

So for Vulcanians who's ancestors, in the words of Spock, "spawned in another ocean" than humans', we can expect that they would have different reproductive drives than humans. In my opinion giving Vulcanians human mating drives is an example of small universe syndrome, becasue we can't imagine abstaining for seven years. Our human drive is to bang anything that moves. We even do it with inanimate objects. If you look at all the fetishes that are out there, humans do some pretty weird things to satisfy the itch. But there's no reason to apply this same drive to an alien species, especially when we've been explicitly told that their mating cycle is once every seven years.

The romulans either secretly return to Vulcan every 7 years, or they genetically modified themselves not to need to do that.

Not necessarily. The two examples Spock gave were the Eel bird of Regulus and the salmon of earth. Both being egg laying species what they consider "home" would be determined before they were hatched. However, Vulcanians have a gestational period. Meaning that where a Vulcanian is born could be different than where they were conceived. So a Vulcanian couple could conceive then travel to another planet nine months(presumably) away and give birth on that planet. That Vulcanian child would then consider that new planet "home". They would be drawn there (where they "hatched" using Spock's Eel bird analogy) for Pon Farr. Thus Vulcanians could have interstellar off shoots that are not always drawn back to Vulcan. Though for the majority of Vulcanians "home" would be Vulcan.

My other question is, if Sargon's people where ancestors of Vulcanians, did THEY have Pon Farr?
 
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