The Earth - Romulan War (non-canon)
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God I need to watch through more of my list.
Ace, Mean Girls, Legally Blonde, Rome S2 - I rented these from my library a week ago and I've yet to watch these.
Where is the time, DITL?! GIVE ME MY TIME B ACK!!!!
There are competing idea as to what the war visually looks like.
... and it can probably still look that way.
I've always liked some of those designs. I do think the war could absolutely look at least something like that, although I hate the Romulan ships.
I do think overall though for non-canon designs from the same source, the 2160-2260 designs work better with the ENT canon. I could see these ships being more Romulan War era.
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The game Tactical Assault gave potential Romulan ships that could have been involved in the war.
It's relevant because the BoP is the same as the one in "Minefield", but with the bird on its hull.
I've always liked some of those designs. I do think the war could absolutely look at least something like that, although I hate the Romulan ships.
I do think overall though for non-canon designs from the same source, the 2160-2260 designs work better with the ENT canon. I could see these ships being more Romulan War era.
I could definitely see those ships being ENT-ified.
These ships could also work if ENT-ified.
The game Tactical Assault gave potential Romulan ships that could have been involved in the war.
It's relevant because the BoP is the same as the one in "Minefield", but with the bird on its hull.
Those are cool. I'm down with those.
That's something that did always bother me about the BoP in ENT. Like, the ONE THING it needed was a big red bird.
(on a tangent, i'll still always headcanon that the Klingon BoP is a Romulan design. I like to the thing the Klingons and Romulans had been partly allied for a long time prior to the late-23rd century, and the Romulans were building their fortune by building ships for the Klingons while the Klingons were letting the warriors take over everything and dumb-down the Empire.)
I don't even think they need to be ENT-ified. Just have things shift towards the TOS look by that point.
Hi, this is my first post, so sorry if I go on for too long. I've had a lot of ideas about the war rattling around my head for so long that the thread will be closed by the time I write them all out. For now, here're my thoughts on the cloak and the bird of prey painting
Impractical invisibility
Spock: "Obviously, their weaponry is superior to ours, and they have a practical invisibility screen."
To me, this line implies that impractical invisibility had been observed in the past, so that could be used to justify the use of cloaks in ENT.
The Suliban Cabal, and presumably Xyrillian, cloaks work by producing some kind of particles / radiation (which I will refer to as stealth radiation, or S-radiation). If someone can detect this kind of radiation, the cloak becomes useless. If one of these cloaking devices were damaged, stealth radiation leaks out into the environment, which makes carrying out repairs a problem; imagine trying to repair one when your hands and tools are invisible. According to Memory Beta, the DTI books revealed Future Guy to be a Romulan, and the Romulans in this period must have some way of detecting their own cloaked mines, so it's possible that they could detect other sources of S-radiation as well, preventing the Cabal from attacking them. I think that Future Guy gave the Cabal this type of cloak because he knew it would soon become obsolete thanks to quantum beacons being invented in this century, thereby limiting the risks of undesired timeline changes. A side thought: are the quantum beacons a bootstrap paradox, i.e. does history record Trip as being their inventor?
The spheres in the delphic expanse are large enough to supply sufficient power for a cloak that functions like a 23rd century one, but the gravitational field of the spheres ruins the effect, also making them impractical. Fortunately for them, most people would be too busy dealing with spatial anomalies to notice.
From what I can gather, cloaks from the 23rd century onwards work in a similar way to shields or warp fields: all 3 involve balancing and stabilising the flow of energies in order to produce the desired effect. It's likely that 22nd century Romulan cloaks work the same way, albeit far less efficiently. I have an idea on how to make these Romulan cloaks less practical; it involves S-radiation and Human starship designs.
Earth starships designed to reach warp 5 (with the exception of the Warp Delta class) all have a Symmetrical Warp Field Governor (SWG), which bends warp fields into a stable shape by emitting radiation. It's possible that 22nd century Romulan cloaks may need something similar to function with greater efficiency. However, using one wouldn't be practical, as the radiation it needs to emit would give them away, so instead they funnel energy from other systems into the cloak to force it to stabilise, which can lead to a ship's destruction, such as what happened to the Praetor Pontilus. However, what if the required radiation came from an external source? What if the S-radiation emitted by the mines were bending the ship's cloaking fields into a stable configuration, like an external SWG? A single cloaked mine would have negligible effect, but the combined radiation fields of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of mines may provide just enough for the cloak's needs. If this idea worked, then their cloaks would function almost perfectly, as long as the vessel remains within an area saturated with low levels of S-radiation; outside of these areas, the energy needs of the cloak increase dramatically and the ship would eventually be destroyed if it attempts to cloak for an extended period of time.
It may also provide an in-universe explanation for the cut dialogue from Balance of Terror, where it's said that the Romulans have based the 23rd century Bird of Prey on stolen Federation starship designs. During the war, it's possible that Human warp technology could have advanced enough for less radiation being needed to stabilise the warp fields of ships travelling at warp 5. If so, the Romulans could have stolen the designs for an Earth ship that uses a SWG, and reverse engineered their own equivalent to help solve some of their problems with their cloaks.
The bird of prey painting
I have a few ideas here too. The first idea is that perhaps the painting is reserved for vessels that have been approved by the Romulan government for military use. It's possible that the Birds of Prey seen in 'Minefield' were prototypes, and that the design still needed government approval before being mass produced.
The second idea is that no ships had the painted on bird of prey until the war. Assuming the Romulans had been easily destroying the ships of the more well known rival powers (Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons, etc.), seeing the painting would act as a warning to any less powerful species in the interstellar community about what to expect if they cross the Romulan Star Empire.
The third idea is that the painting itself is a weapon of a sort. Based on the telecapture technology from the books, a trojan horse virus could have been planted by Romulan spies during V'las' administration, and spread to other interstellar powers via spies or double agents, or deliberately allowing Vulcan computer technology to be reverse engineered by hostile governments. The Romulans have some kind of technology that prevents internal scans, so a possible upgrade to that could be something that prevents precise targeting locks beyond a certain range. The painting is designed to act as an obvious target, and could contain a hidden repeating computer code within its patterns. When these patterns are scanned by enemy vessels that have have the trojan virus inside their computer systems, the virus is activated, causing catastrophic system malfunctions that would the enemy ship helpless to defend itself or escape. The idea probably isn't feasible; the opposing ship would need a clear scan of the pattern, if the paint is damaged perhaps several scans would be required, there may be delays between scanning the pattern and the virus activating, and it's useless if the pattern is scanned into a computer that doesn't have the virus, but it was worth throwing out there.
Impractical invisibility
Spock: "Obviously, their weaponry is superior to ours, and they have a practical invisibility screen."
To me, this line implies that impractical invisibility had been observed in the past, so that could be used to justify the use of cloaks in ENT.
The Suliban Cabal, and presumably Xyrillian, cloaks work by producing some kind of particles / radiation (which I will refer to as stealth radiation, or S-radiation). If someone can detect this kind of radiation, the cloak becomes useless. If one of these cloaking devices were damaged, stealth radiation leaks out into the environment, which makes carrying out repairs a problem; imagine trying to repair one when your hands and tools are invisible. According to Memory Beta, the DTI books revealed Future Guy to be a Romulan, and the Romulans in this period must have some way of detecting their own cloaked mines, so it's possible that they could detect other sources of S-radiation as well, preventing the Cabal from attacking them. I think that Future Guy gave the Cabal this type of cloak because he knew it would soon become obsolete thanks to quantum beacons being invented in this century, thereby limiting the risks of undesired timeline changes. A side thought: are the quantum beacons a bootstrap paradox, i.e. does history record Trip as being their inventor?
The spheres in the delphic expanse are large enough to supply sufficient power for a cloak that functions like a 23rd century one, but the gravitational field of the spheres ruins the effect, also making them impractical. Fortunately for them, most people would be too busy dealing with spatial anomalies to notice.
From what I can gather, cloaks from the 23rd century onwards work in a similar way to shields or warp fields: all 3 involve balancing and stabilising the flow of energies in order to produce the desired effect. It's likely that 22nd century Romulan cloaks work the same way, albeit far less efficiently. I have an idea on how to make these Romulan cloaks less practical; it involves S-radiation and Human starship designs.
Earth starships designed to reach warp 5 (with the exception of the Warp Delta class) all have a Symmetrical Warp Field Governor (SWG), which bends warp fields into a stable shape by emitting radiation. It's possible that 22nd century Romulan cloaks may need something similar to function with greater efficiency. However, using one wouldn't be practical, as the radiation it needs to emit would give them away, so instead they funnel energy from other systems into the cloak to force it to stabilise, which can lead to a ship's destruction, such as what happened to the Praetor Pontilus. However, what if the required radiation came from an external source? What if the S-radiation emitted by the mines were bending the ship's cloaking fields into a stable configuration, like an external SWG? A single cloaked mine would have negligible effect, but the combined radiation fields of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of mines may provide just enough for the cloak's needs. If this idea worked, then their cloaks would function almost perfectly, as long as the vessel remains within an area saturated with low levels of S-radiation; outside of these areas, the energy needs of the cloak increase dramatically and the ship would eventually be destroyed if it attempts to cloak for an extended period of time.
It may also provide an in-universe explanation for the cut dialogue from Balance of Terror, where it's said that the Romulans have based the 23rd century Bird of Prey on stolen Federation starship designs. During the war, it's possible that Human warp technology could have advanced enough for less radiation being needed to stabilise the warp fields of ships travelling at warp 5. If so, the Romulans could have stolen the designs for an Earth ship that uses a SWG, and reverse engineered their own equivalent to help solve some of their problems with their cloaks.
The bird of prey painting
I have a few ideas here too. The first idea is that perhaps the painting is reserved for vessels that have been approved by the Romulan government for military use. It's possible that the Birds of Prey seen in 'Minefield' were prototypes, and that the design still needed government approval before being mass produced.
The second idea is that no ships had the painted on bird of prey until the war. Assuming the Romulans had been easily destroying the ships of the more well known rival powers (Vulcans, Andorians, Klingons, etc.), seeing the painting would act as a warning to any less powerful species in the interstellar community about what to expect if they cross the Romulan Star Empire.
The third idea is that the painting itself is a weapon of a sort. Based on the telecapture technology from the books, a trojan horse virus could have been planted by Romulan spies during V'las' administration, and spread to other interstellar powers via spies or double agents, or deliberately allowing Vulcan computer technology to be reverse engineered by hostile governments. The Romulans have some kind of technology that prevents internal scans, so a possible upgrade to that could be something that prevents precise targeting locks beyond a certain range. The painting is designed to act as an obvious target, and could contain a hidden repeating computer code within its patterns. When these patterns are scanned by enemy vessels that have have the trojan virus inside their computer systems, the virus is activated, causing catastrophic system malfunctions that would the enemy ship helpless to defend itself or escape. The idea probably isn't feasible; the opposing ship would need a clear scan of the pattern, if the paint is damaged perhaps several scans would be required, there may be delays between scanning the pattern and the virus activating, and it's useless if the pattern is scanned into a computer that doesn't have the virus, but it was worth throwing out there.
Long posts are good! Go for it!
Snipped out of the rest of that just to respond and... yeah, I would largely agree with that. It's not that the 23rd century Romulan cloaks were some paradigm shift in technology that was completely out of context for Starfleet... it was more just... unexpected?
I don't love the last explanation, but I can absolutely get behind the much simpler explanation of "they didn't paint them until the war". I can see it as being somewhat of a tradition or something... as a ship gets deployed to war, it gets a big red bird painted on it.
By TOS, I feel like the Romulans considered themselves to be at war for the past century...
There should be more diversity in Trek design. Leave it to modern "creators" and a ship set in the 21st century will look like a ship from the 24th. Saucer, nacelles, Bussards, shuttlebay, etc. No long arc of technological history. The equivalent of an aircraft carrier at Trafalgar.
I wrote in another thread The Enterprise That Wasn't a bit of how I imagine earlier centuries in the Trek Universe. Not too dissimilar from what Trek presumed for itself before ENT debuted.
An impression of what I think early intra system, sublight, and the first FTL ships looked like: (context)
More. Left earlier craft, right later craft:
An impression of what I think early stations looked like:
These would be late 21st and early 22nd Century technologies.
I wrote in another thread The Enterprise That Wasn't a bit of how I imagine earlier centuries in the Trek Universe. Not too dissimilar from what Trek presumed for itself before ENT debuted.
An impression of what I think early intra system, sublight, and the first FTL ships looked like: (context)
More. Left earlier craft, right later craft:
An impression of what I think early stations looked like:
These would be late 21st and early 22nd Century technologies.
Maybe, maybe not.
There is a point where technology slows down. Using ships as an example, if you took a naval ship from 2025 and compared it a ship from 1925, they're... at least visually similar.
USS Mullany, 1925
2025 Arleigh Burke destroyer
And then...
USS Boston, 1825.
Going forward 100 years from 1925, the ships look pretty similar. There are differences, sure, but by and large they are similar. Go BACK 100 years from 1925... well... ships look a tad different. The thing is, from 1925 to 2025, those ships are really using a similar technology base. The 2025 ship is improved, but it's still using similar principles from the 1925 ship.
In Star Trek terms, let's say from 2151-on, Starfleet ships are using the same basic principles. They're all equipped with warp drive. The base technology improves, but it's not revolutionized. The Enterprise-E is operating under the same basic principles as NX-01.
The wheel in the sky keeps turning.There should be more diversity in Trek design. Leave it to modern "creators" and a ship set in the 21st century will look like a ship from the 24th. Saucer, nacelles, Bussards, shuttlebay, etc. No long arc of technological history. The equivalent of an aircraft carrier at Trafalgar.
I wrote in another thread The Enterprise That Wasn't a bit of how I imagine earlier centuries in the Trek Universe. Not too dissimilar from what Trek presumed for itself before ENT debuted.
An impression of what I think early intra system, sublight, and the first FTL ships looked like: (context)
More. Left earlier craft, right later craft:
An impression of what I think early stations looked like:
These would be late 21st and early 22nd Century technologies.
I was really hoping that the novel duology would work in all the material from other licensed sources and be the definitive (until a screen adaptation at least) story of the Romulan War. And I know Michael Martin did a heroic job, the best he could. But unfortunately the video game Star Trek Legacy took place at the same time, clearly references Mayweather aboard the Enterprise, while a big part of the Romulan War books have Mayweather not on the Enterprise (and no, the dates he's there don't match up with the dates in the game, I checked). So as a big gamer myself, it was frustrating.
I hear you but there was no NX-01. It was whatever they wanted it to be. We saw the ring ship Enterprise in TMP, and we had the lamentably non-ring ship Phoenix in FC — never liked that either. Even so, early warp designs looked like this. They could have done very different things with the look of early starships then they did.Maybe, maybe not.
There is a point where technology slows down. Using ships as an example, if you took a naval ship from 2025 and compared it a ship from 1925, they're... at least visually similar.
USS Mullany, 1925
2025 Arleigh Burke destroyer
And then...
USS Boston, 1825.
Going forward 100 years from 1925, the ships look pretty similar. There are differences, sure, but by and large they are similar. Go BACK 100 years from 1925... well... ships look a tad different. The thing is, from 1925 to 2025, those ships are really using a similar technology base. The 2025 ship is improved, but it's still using similar principles from the 1925 ship.
In Star Trek terms, let's say from 2151-on, Starfleet ships are using the same basic principles. They're all equipped with warp drive. The base technology improves, but it's not revolutionized. The Enterprise-E is operating under the same basic principles as NX-01.
And not just starships. Most of the ships in the collages above are sub-light ships. Even if the warp ships were similar to later ships, earlier ones (and new sub-light ships) could have looked dramatically different. Same with space stations. The drydock in “Broken Bow” looked in many ways more futuristic than the one in TMP and others later.
Also, the NX leapfrogged over the Daedalus design asking us to believe they came later. No, thank you.
It feels silly to still hear complaints about the existence of the NX-01 after almost 25 years of being part of the franchise, but here we are.
One does have to remember that Star Trek is simply a brand among many other brands. Part of its brand is its particular design aesthetic. A Star Trek ship needs to be recognizable as a Star Trek ship. That means a saucer, that means Nacelles that usually glow red and blue. You want the general public to immediately be able to recognized that something belongs to a particular brand. To go against that aesthetic would throw away decades of work in making Star Trek a recognizable franchise. Even if someone isn't a fan and has virtually no knowledge of the franchise, odds are they'll still be able to recognized one of the various "hero ships " as being part of Star Trek.
The Daedalus works fine if you look at it as a cheaply built, mass produced Starship designed to fill out the ranks during the early Federation.
Oh, I've got a lot more complaints about the series (and the ship) than that.
What can I say, I have greater faith in Star Trek than it being about certain design elements and copies of copies of copies of stories. And really, the show ended its run early; lots of people had issues with it, its fans notwithstanding.
So do a lot of other ships that much more easily fit into an esthetic between ENT and TOS. Daedalus makes little sense in that universe. Might as well have NASA design the Sovereign class in the 21st century then call the one in the 24th "retro."
Enterprise was doomed by being on UPN, whatever issues people had with it had very little to do with its cancelation. Should also be noted that many would argue that Enterprise was finally getting into its stride when it was nixed.
In your opinion. I think it fits in rather nicely, especially since they've updated the design slightly and given it surface details pulled from the NX-01.*
*SNW showing us Essex and using the Eaglemoss model..
It wasn't just the station. Its executive producer took a look at the cast & crew one day as they were taking pictures and knew inside it was his time to go. He should have gone sooner, but he didn't, nor did his boss, and the show suffered for it. Manny Coto was given free rein to do anything he wanted because they knew it was already over. Arguably its finest season was because they weren't doing what the show had been about.
And I say that lamenting that the show didn't get better at what they were trying to do the first couple of seasons.
...but I digress from the Romulan War.
I would certainly have done things slightly differently with the NX-class, but it's never looked outright utterly incongruous either.
As for the Daedalus - it depends on it's mission roles, but it can certainly come across like a second-line, or support ship at times. More than adequate for quite a few science or moderate exploratory missions though.
The ring-ship would work in some contexts too, although details were very sparse to go on.
And the Bonaventure I typically headcanon as contemporary to the Valiant, but more practical... used for trips to Alpha Centauri, Tau Ceti etc. Cochrane likely even travelling with it several times (perhaps in cryonic freeze, which would alleviate some issues about his physical age by 2119)
That's fair, but realistically NX-01 was always going to look at least relatively familiar as a Star Trek ship. It absolutely was the right call. Yeah sure, it didn't need to look... like an Akira, but it was always going to be a saucer with some nacelles. It's how Star Trek ships look.
They included a reference the XCV-330 in ENT, it was implied to be an older vessel.
I always assumed the Daedalus was a slightly later vessel. In my own version, I have it as the primary ship of the Romulan War, which ends up getting hastily designed and built around 2158 or so. I rolled with it actually being a LESS advanced ship than NX-01... it's a tube with warp engines that's meant to be stuffed to the brim with nuclear warheads, warp in, fire them off, go home, reload, rinse and repeat.
It's my way of reconciling that the Earth-Romulan War was fought with "primitive nuclear weapons"... the NX-Class was too advanced and too expensive to quickly mass produce. So rather than a top-of-the-line, cutting edge ship, Earth starts pumping out a cheap ship that can get the job done. Rather than arming it with the most advanced weaponry that is difficult to build, they just spam nukes.
It's also partly why they get decommissioned in 2196, they were never intended for long term service. They were glorified missile launch platforms.
They do explain another thing that didn't entirely need explaining. There's the NX-Class, as we know. The initial Daedalus' were constructed as "NCC-Class", which Starfleet dubbed the Nuclear Combat Cruiser-Class. With the transfer of Starfleet to the Federation, the class is redubbed to honor it's first vessel, Daedalus. To honor the "ship that won the war", all Starfleet ship registries going forward would be "NCC-"
