The Earth - Romulan War (non-canon)

[evilchumlee]

I don't think those ships would have been scrubbed. Delayed because of engine trouble, or because they were to receive the NX refit, maybe. But those ships would have been launched.

Oh I don't think they were scrubbed, I was just nothing we don't have a launch date in canon and there is at least a possibility they would have been delayed until after the war had already started.

I had a though about the cloaks the Suliban used.

What if the Suliban cloaks were actually more advanced than the Romulan BoP cloaks?

And also explains why the Suliban have not been seen again - the Federation does not have the quantum beacon tech to find them as of the early 25th century.

Snipped some out for the quote but... maybe? I don't think it's outlandish that Temporal Investigations got involved and yoinked the technology away. But I don't love this, as the Romulan cloaks of TOS were supposed to be surprising... despite the Romulans already having cloaks in TOS, and the Klingons having cloaks in DSC...

I prefer that the Suliban cloaks are just less advanced, and basically the same technology as the Romulan and Klingon cloaks.

But even if the freighters upgraded their weapons, the Intrepid and Warp Deltas are just better equipped for combat. And will be in a better position to defend against an ambush from Romulans, whether it be a single Bird or Prey, or three BoPs, or five. This would then mean that the supply chain to and from the human colonies is not disrupted. And frontline supply would be critical for the colony worlds.

That's fair.

I had not really considered this aspect as in my version of the war, it's not really as much of an issue. I have the bulk of the fighting happening along the border, ship to ship. It's more about both sides trying to put up a wall, while also testing to defenses of the others wall to slip through.

Homefront logistics would be as they were.

 

[Lord Hierarch]

How Suliban and Romulan cloaking fields work are different anyway. Something easy to handwave as different tech fields.

Like how the Fed. constantly adapts its sensors to track Romulan cloaks.

 

[Shawnster]

But I don't love this, as the Romulan cloaks of TOS were supposed to be surprising... despite the Romulans already having cloaks in TOS,

Were they supposed to be surprising, though?

In Balance of Terror the surprise over the new weapon was in regards the plasma torpedo. In The Enterprise Incident the mission was to steal technology they knew existed.

 

[evilchumlee]

Were they supposed to be surprising, though?

In Balance of Terror the surprise over the new weapon was in regards the plasma torpedo. In The Enterprise Incident the mission was to steal technology they knew existed.

Both were surprising. It was clear that the Romulan ship being invisible was an almost existential threat.

The plasma torpedo was also alarming due to just how destructive it was, but it was the combination of the invisible enemy with the incredibly powerful weapon.

KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.
SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem.

As of TOS, a cloak was just a theoretical possibility. Not something that they had encountered several times in the past already. It was POSSIBLE.

 

[FederationHistorian]

But I don't love this, as the Romulan cloaks of TOS were supposed to be surprising...

Maybe they are.

The Romulan cloak in TOS can last for ten hours. In ENT, the Romulan cloak does not seem to last as long, maybe a couple of hours at most, before they have to be recharged.

Perhaps that's would give the Romulans a reason to resort the holographic tech more often, as the power cost is far less expensive.

It also mean that the waiting game would be much shorter, and United Earth fleets would not have the same about of time to repair their ships.

despite the Romulans already having cloaks in TOS, and the Klingons having cloaks in DSC...

Well, the Klingon cloaks could be reverse engineered from Xyrillian cloaking tech.

In fact, based on the cloaking effect, I find it plausible that both the DIS Klingon ships and Nero’s mining ship in ST ‘09 both used Xyrillian cloaking tech. Acquired either through trade or the Klingons plundered the Xyrillians, and Nero stole his cloak from the Klingons.

I prefer that the Suliban cloaks are just less advanced, and basically the same technology as the Romulan and Klingon cloaks.

I'm just trying to think outside the box. Maybe there's no contradiction between the advanced tech on ENT and the Romulan war involving low tech.

United Earth builds the smaller and cheaper Daedalus class over more NXs, Intrepids and Warp Deltas. And then dials back the power of the phase cannons on purpose, turning them into lasers. And they ditch the photonic torpedoes for spatial torpedoes and tactical nukes. As they play into the arrgonce of the Romulans who think that the United Earth fleet is inferior to theirs.

Similarly for the Romulans, their cloak just isn't as advanced as what the Suliban and even the Xyrillians have. So, either
- install a relatively new tech that only works a few hours at a time, or
- rely on the cheaper holotech that United Earth can identify by locating the boridium power signature, or
- don't use either and use unmanned A.I. controlled ships, or
- use none of the above, but have very small fleets (topping out at five ships with manned crews) that autodestruct to avoid capture no matter what.

The Romulans also have to rely on disuptor banks, mines and left over nukes from the Time of Awakening (that they may not have maintained over millenia), as they have not developed plasma weapons yet. And they don't know anything about protomatter or thalaron either, as they may only be in the research stage. They might not have even discovered deflective shielding yet.

And the Romulans are equally reliant on propaganda to instill fear into the Coalition of Planets as a whole and demoralize them.

 

[evilchumlee]

Maybe they are.

The Romulan cloak in TOS can last for ten hours. In ENT, the Romulan cloak does not seem to last as long, maybe a couple of hours at most, before they have to be recharged.

Totally a possibility.

I'm just trying to think outside the box. Maybe there's no contradiction between the advanced tech on ENT and the Romulan war involving low tech.

I'm with you on that. I think it's totally doable.

United Earth builds the smaller and cheaper Daedalus class over more NXs, Intrepids and Warp Deltas. And then dials back the power of the phase cannons on purpose, turning them into lasers. And they ditch the photonic torpedoes for spatial torpedoes and tactical nukes. As they play into the arrgonce of the Romulans who think that the United Earth fleet is inferior to theirs.

I'm basically with you on this. I think the whole "lasers and nuclear weapons" thing is 100% plausible. Phase Cannons and Photonic torpedoes are expensive, complicated, and potentially even prone to failure and requiring a high level of maintenance. Lasers and nukes are almost foolproof.

Similarly for the Romulans, their cloak just isn't as advanced as what the Suliban and even the Xyrillians have. So, either
- install a relatively new tech that only works a few hours at a time, or
- rely on the cheaper holotech that United Earth can identify by locating the boridium power signature, or
- don't use either and use unmanned A.I. controlled ships, or
- use none of the above, but have very small fleets (topping out at five ships with manned crews) that autodestruct to avoid capture no matter what.

I do think that by the time of the war, the cloak becomes a non-issue and is essentially retired until they come up with the more advanced version in TOS. The old cloaking tech is essentially useless by the war.

I do think the Romulans may have utilized more in the way of drones, I do also think they were the type to prevent capture at all costs, so yeah in the event they might be on the verge, the just ram their ship or self destruct.

The Romulans also have to rely on disuptor banks, mines and left over nukes from the Time of Awakening (that they may not have maintained over millenia), as they have not developed plasma weapons yet. And they don't know anything about protomatter or thalaron either, as they may only be in the research stage. They might not have even discovered deflective shielding yet.

And the Romulans are equally reliant on propaganda to instill fear into the Coalition of Planets as a whole and demoralize them.

I like to think that even a good number of the ships they are using date back a thousand years or so, and it's part of the reason why the lasers and nukes were effective. They have newer vessels as well, but they underestimated the resolve of the Coalition/Earth and had to start throwing everything they had at them, including downright ancient vessels.

In the end, I think a good chunk of the war isn't NX's going at it with T'Varo's, it's ancient Romulan ships cobbled together and mass-produced, disposable Daedalus' doing most of the fighting.

I'm very much in on the idea of general propaganda being a big tool. I couple that with the Romulans not doing ground invasions... they strictly engage in orbital bombardment. For the Romulans, it's not a war of expansion. They aren't looking to claim territory. In their mind, they're fighting a defensive war. The Coalition worlds are pushing up on its border, so they decided they needed to knock them down.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the Romulan cloaks of TOS were supposed to be surprising... despite the Romulans already having cloaks in TOS, and the Klingons having cloaks in DSC...

When the Romulan ship is cloaking and decloaking in ENT's "Minefield" it seems to be doing it at random. That suggests to me that Romulan cloaks were new back then.

The novelverse ran with that. It propounded that cloaking was brand new, and untested, and the "Minefield" ship - the ChR Praetor Pontilus - was malfunctiioning. That's why it cloaked and decloaked all over the place like that. Cloaking eventually drew so much power that the ship destroyed itself.

So maybe the Romulan cloaks in TOS were surprising - because they actually worked as intended.

 

[Lord Hierarch]

So maybe the Romulan cloaks in TOS were surprising - because they actually worked as intended.

Romulan Captain: "Chief Engineer! The cloaks are working! By the Gods, you've done it!"

Romulan Engineer: "But how!?"

 

[CaptChris42]

Do you guys know about the fanfic The Edge of Midnight? I listen to the audio version and just really love it. Thought I’d pass it doing given a few of the points made/questions raised here. There’s also a map in progress by another fan. Really exemplary stuff.

I'm definitely keeping an eye on it. And even given some feedback about the map, to DEWline in particular (here on the forums)

It's very impressive. And not so far affected by any... ah... Axanar flavoured... erm, baggage.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I like to think that even a good number of the ships they are using date back a thousand years or so, and it's part of the reason why the lasers and nukes were effective. They have newer vessels as well, but they underestimated the resolve of the Coalition/Earth and had to start throwing everything they had at them, including downright ancient vessels.

In the end, I think a good chunk of the war isn't NX's going at it with T'Varo's, it's ancient Romulan ships cobbled together and mass-produced, disposable Daedalus' doing most of the fighting.

There are competing idea as to what the war visually looks like.

ENT has many thinking the war looked like this...

When pre-ENT, it probably looked more like this...

... and it can probably still look that way.

When the Romulan ship is cloaking and decloaking in ENT's "Minefield" it seems to be doing it at random. That suggests to me that Romulan cloaks were new back then.

The novelverse ran with that. It propounded that cloaking was brand new, and untested, and the "Minefield" ship - the ChR Praetor Pontilus - was malfunctiioning. That's why it cloaked and decloaked all over the place like that. Cloaking eventually drew so much power that the ship destroyed itself.

So maybe the Romulan cloaks in TOS were surprising - because they actually worked as intended.

Don't forget that in the TOS era, cloaks were known as invisibility shields. So, for the Romulans, cloaks may have been substitutes for energy shields. And the translated Romulan language would say they are shields, not cloaks.

In "Minefield", there was two BoPs, so at least one ship did not have a malfunctioning cloak.

While I don't think that cloaking should result in the ship destroying itself, I can buy that it is very power consuming to the point it's actually self-defeating to actually use one. And that cloaking would be used to make enemy ships think the Romulan ship is destroyed.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Never cared for those dirigible/bomb ships. Design language just isn't "Star Trek" to me. I used to see them in Spaceship design art books back in the 70s/80s

 

[HotRod]

Never cared for those dirigible/bomb ships. Design language just isn't "Star Trek" to me. I used to see them in Spaceship design art books back in the 70s/80s

Yeah, they're ugly. I'll take the NX-01 and similar ships over those things any day.

 

[Lord Hierarch]

People thought FASA Trek thing was the Romulan War. The SFM ships were a niche interpretation.

This thing was the only "canon" Romulan ships we know of > https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Romulan_bird-of-prey_(2150s)

Speaking of which, I NEED more info on this ship. And a 3D model.

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah, they're ugly. I'll take the NX-01 and similar ships over those things any day.

I understand what the artist was going for, but to be honest, based on Spock’s account, I always got the impression that the ships used on both sides were small and cramped, not these huge hulking things, and definitely not anywhere near as large and advanced as the NX-01.

People thought FASA Trek thing was the Romulan War. The SFM ships were a niche interpretation.

This thing was the only "canon" Romulan ships we know of > https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Romulan_bird-of-prey_(2150s)

Speaking of which, I NEED more info on this ship. And a 3D model.

That model is not actually canon. It was just built for the Star Trek Chronology book, and never appeared on screen.

 

[Lord Hierarch]

That model is not actually canon. It was just built for the Star Trek Chronology book, and never appeared on screen.

I'm aware. But its the only "canon" Romu ship of the era we had.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Just because those Ex Astris Scientia ships (which I happen to love, BTW) were huge and bulky, doesn't make them advanced. In fact, in my mind, it has the opposite effect.

For one thing, I'm fairly sure those ships were oriented like the ones in The Expanse, i.e. their deck arrangements were along the "forward" axis (not dorsal/ventral, like most Trek ships are). And I'm also certain that they didn't have artificial gravity.

Ships like that were probably 90% engines. I doubt they had much actual livable crew space.

IMHO, those early ships were entirely in line with the canon ships that we saw. Meaning, the Ex Astris Scientia ships were the bulk of Earth Starfleet's defense fleet, the working-class blue-collar types; OTOH, the ships we actually saw onscreen (i.e. the NX cllass) were the absolute cutting edge, brand new, hardly ever tested.

If Earth Starfleet ships were cars, the Ex Astria ships were Fords and Chevys and Dodges and the like, and the NX's were Teslas.

Hell, the NX and its ilk probably didn't even serve in the war.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They look like they read "nuclear" and thought, "Oh, they look like bombs."

Just because those Ex Astris Scientia ships (which I happen to love, BTW) were huge and bulky, doesn't make them advanced. In fact, in my mind, it has the opposite effect.

For one thing, I'm fairly sure those ships were oriented like the ones in The Expanse, i.e. their deck arrangements were along the "forward" axis (not dorsal/ventral, like most Trek ships are). And I'm also certain that they didn't have artificial gravity.

Ships like that were probably 90% engines. I doubt they had much actual livable crew space.

IMHO, those early ships were entirely in line with the canon ships that we saw. Meaning, the Ex Astris Scientia ships were the bulk of Earth's defense fleet, and the ones we saw onscreen (i.e. the NX cllass) were the absolute cutting edge, brand new, hardly ever tested.

Hell, the NX and its ilk probably didn't even serve in the war.

Which canon ships would those be? The only canon ships are from Enterprise and a few mentions elsewhere (TNG mostly). None seem to fit what you've described.

I think this shows several of the ships used in Enterprise.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Which canon ships would those be? The only canon ships are from Enterprise and a few mentions elsewhere (TNG mostly). None seem to fit what you've described.

That's exactly what I meant. The ships we actually SAW were the Teslas of their day. The absolute cutting edge of technology. Probably not even used in the war.

The Ex Astris ships, OTOH, were the bulk of the fleet. The working class. The normal blue-collar ships of the line. Cheaply made, mass produced, and easily replaceable. Like I said...the Fords, Chevys and Dodges of their age.

And, given the dynamics of Trek TV shows at the time, ships we would never actually had the chance to see in action, because the dry, uncaring, apathetic network bean-counters would never have allowed it. They only want the pretty ships. And these were not.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That's exactly what I meant. The ships we actually SAW were the Teslas of their day. The absolute cutting edge of technology. Probably not even used in the war.

The Ex Astris ships, OTOH, were the bulk of the fleet. The working class. The normal blue-collar ships of the line. Cheaply made and mass produced. Like I said...the Fords, Chevys and Dodges of their age.

Other than the NX, those ships are the "Fords and Chevys". They were what the UE Starfleet and the Cargo Service were fielding for a decade or more. Travis grew up on a J-Class. By the time the Romulan War starts the NX's would have been in service for nearly half a decade. They were old hat. Plus being at war means fielding new ships. WWII meant new airplanes, ships, tanks and other vehicles using cutting edge technology. Not bi-planes and horse drawn artillery.

 

[Lord Hierarch]

Just because those Ex Astris Scientia ships (which I happen to love, BTW) were huge and bulky, doesn't make them advanced. In fact, in my mind, it has the opposite effect.

The Starfleet Museum - A Report by Masao Okazaki

Wrong site, my dude.