Saavik I vs. Saavik II?
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Kirstie Alley was always Saavik to me. Mixture of emotions, half Romulan and more complex character.
Robin Curtis played as a more typical Vulcan. Should have just made a new character, though I would love to see an AI fan edit or something sub in Kirstie Alley in ST III and IV and expand on the Spock's child angle.
Robin Curtis played as a more typical Vulcan. Should have just made a new character, though I would love to see an AI fan edit or something sub in Kirstie Alley in ST III and IV and expand on the Spock's child angle.
I actually saw Curtis' Saavik first, as I saw TSFS before I ever saw TWOK, but I vastly prefer Alley's interpretation of Saavik. Like Spock, you get the sense of a vast amount of passion that's just barely kept in check. I think if Spock hadn't come back, Saavik would've been a good successor to Spock in future movies.
Curtis I think was a bit sabotaged by Nimoy. It's my feeling that he understandably didn't want this new Vulcan character to steal Spock's thunder, so he didn't take great pains to bring the well-liked Kirstie Alley back and directed Curtis to play her scenes as flatly as possible. That killed off most of Saavik's fandom IMO, and made fans more receptive to Spock's return. And after Spock was back, Saavik was just redundant. ("One more pair of pointed ears to hide" as Harve Bennett said about writing her out of STIV.)
Although back in 1991 I was really glad that Saavik didn't turn out to be a traitor in STVI, I now think it would've been a cool and offbeat ending to her character, especially with Alley returning to the role under Meyer's direction. And let's face it, Valeris' constant "A lie?" refrain in TUC was obviously supposed to be a callback to the "You lied" / "I exaggerated" exchange in TWOK. As it is, Saavik just sort of fades away in Trek history, with nothing definitive established about her after STIV.
Curtis I think was a bit sabotaged by Nimoy. It's my feeling that he understandably didn't want this new Vulcan character to steal Spock's thunder, so he didn't take great pains to bring the well-liked Kirstie Alley back and directed Curtis to play her scenes as flatly as possible. That killed off most of Saavik's fandom IMO, and made fans more receptive to Spock's return. And after Spock was back, Saavik was just redundant. ("One more pair of pointed ears to hide" as Harve Bennett said about writing her out of STIV.)
Although back in 1991 I was really glad that Saavik didn't turn out to be a traitor in STVI, I now think it would've been a cool and offbeat ending to her character, especially with Alley returning to the role under Meyer's direction. And let's face it, Valeris' constant "A lie?" refrain in TUC was obviously supposed to be a callback to the "You lied" / "I exaggerated" exchange in TWOK. As it is, Saavik just sort of fades away in Trek history, with nothing definitive established about her after STIV.
You are both correct, but the point is that with Sulu at the helm, there was no reason for Kirk to be nervous as he was.
Yup, I’m starting to think that ST III should have featured another character working with David, because Saavik II essentially was another character. The disconnect is I just can’t see them as the same person because they are presented as different people. Perhaps David could have been working with a Vulcan science officer from the Grissom crew.
Since Alley wasn’t coming back, her character could maybe have disappeared ala Carol Marcus (whatever DID happen to her between II and III? I always find the jump from one film to the next quite puzzling in terms of how much time has passed and how reassignments have happened before the Enterprise even makes it home to sort its repairs).
Recasting a character is always risky, especially if it’s a character that had been popular and well received. Recasting a character AND reinterpreting/retconning that character is doubly risky. Yet, that’s the way the cookie crumbles.
Since Alley wasn’t coming back, her character could maybe have disappeared ala Carol Marcus (whatever DID happen to her between II and III? I always find the jump from one film to the next quite puzzling in terms of how much time has passed and how reassignments have happened before the Enterprise even makes it home to sort its repairs).
Recasting a character is always risky, especially if it’s a character that had been popular and well received. Recasting a character AND reinterpreting/retconning that character is doubly risky. Yet, that’s the way the cookie crumbles.
Like most folks, I prefer the original Alley portrayal, & I like the unofficial notion of her being Half Romulan. I actually have no issue with Curtis though either, but who I think was far better utilized in her TNG Gambit appearance. Her Saavik portrayal, if in any degree a disappointment, isn't really on her, as others stated. The choice to drop in that character shift, of her being more stoically Vulcan, with no context & with a recast, was handled poorly, and made for an unwelcome fit to the film series imho... and it was obvious to everyone, prompting the backgrounding of her character even.
However, I also don't have any issues with the narrative idea that Saavik BE more stoically Vulcan, by that time. It's an interesting idea, & given that Spock himself went through the process of Kolinahr, it would seem a fitting path for his protege to have pursued likewise as well, especially one who we like to think of as also being half Vulcan & struggling as Spock did to reconcile those conflicting inner parts. You'd really feel the mentoring kinship of that dynamic with such a plot point included.
AND it would work right into a really powerful betrayal, when the 6th film came around, if you were to keep Valeris as Saavik, when the schism occurs between mentor & protege , it can be over that dynamic, that because she'd become more rigidly logical, she'd diverge in philosophy from Spock, who at that time was starting to attain true wisdom beyond just logic, & his line "Logic is the beginning of wisdom" would really have some contextual weight behind it. That's the kind of deep cut that hits dramatically IMHO
I'd have loved for Alley to remain the actress throughout, & follow that character arc. It would've been mighty drama indeed.
However, I also don't have any issues with the narrative idea that Saavik BE more stoically Vulcan, by that time. It's an interesting idea, & given that Spock himself went through the process of Kolinahr, it would seem a fitting path for his protege to have pursued likewise as well, especially one who we like to think of as also being half Vulcan & struggling as Spock did to reconcile those conflicting inner parts. You'd really feel the mentoring kinship of that dynamic with such a plot point included.
AND it would work right into a really powerful betrayal, when the 6th film came around, if you were to keep Valeris as Saavik, when the schism occurs between mentor & protege , it can be over that dynamic, that because she'd become more rigidly logical, she'd diverge in philosophy from Spock, who at that time was starting to attain true wisdom beyond just logic, & his line "Logic is the beginning of wisdom" would really have some contextual weight behind it. That's the kind of deep cut that hits dramatically IMHO
I'd have loved for Alley to remain the actress throughout, & follow that character arc. It would've been mighty drama indeed.
I've always found it interesting that Vonda McIntyre's novelization of Star Trek III is structured so that the film's story doesn't even begin until about 70 pages in. McIntyre is like, "Okay, it's clear stuff happened between these two films, so I have to get this story from there to here before I can even touch the movie."
I don't have a strong preference between McIntyre's account of the inter-movie period (there's about a week between the two films) or Mike W. Barr's (there's about a month or two).
It seemed like Saavik appearing was obligatory, in some measure, in that the film starts with the Enterprise trip back from the Genesis planet, & Bones' emerging katra problem, however long it took to embark on that since Spock's demise. By all rights, we're picking up right where we left off, with the notable exception of Carol up & disappearing, & some other arbitrary ship being sent to study the planet, who Saavik & David get written off to.
I guess they could've disappeared Saavik just as easily as Carol, or even David for that matter, but somebody that matters needed to be around for Spock rising from the ashes, so to speak, & in a way, ST: III already has the most disjointed cast of the franchise, with even Uhura getting displaced. I do like the movie as a follow-up to 2, but it sure is all over the damn place, & needed a few more established characters reappearing to fill in gaps
I guess they could've disappeared Saavik just as easily as Carol, or even David for that matter, but somebody that matters needed to be around for Spock rising from the ashes, so to speak, & in a way, ST: III already has the most disjointed cast of the franchise, with even Uhura getting displaced. I do like the movie as a follow-up to 2, but it sure is all over the damn place, & needed a few more established characters reappearing to fill in gaps
I never did understand why they kicked Uhura to the curb. Seemed a very odd choice.
Uninteresting paper thin character. No offense meant towards Ms. Nichols, but the writers never gave much thought to the character.
Uhura is great. TWoK and TVH made poor use of her and by TFF and TUC they had started to drift towards caricature. TMP came closest to using her well but she just needed a few more lines of sass and to be allowed to work with Spock to sort of the communication problem. TSFS just screwed up by not featuring her conspiring with Sarek to wrong-foot Starfleet.
Disliked Curtis for a while, rewatching III recently she isn't that bad, isn't that different from Alley, she has some moments and I think my big issue was mostly the "David is dead" comment/delivery, but Alley was still much, much better (and of course we're also judging and comparing Meyer and Nimoy's different direction but that's another deserved big win for Meyer).
By the way, David also comes off as a fairly different character, it is pretty hard to believe that he was, before or still by II, that ambitious to succeed in the project quickly, in II he was though smart and fairly ambitious also at least a bit ambivalent about the whole thing, but Butrick still makes it at least believable enough that, even noting the inconsistencies, the new version at least makes enough sense, is believable enough depiction in, for III.
By the way, David also comes off as a fairly different character, it is pretty hard to believe that he was, before or still by II, that ambitious to succeed in the project quickly, in II he was though smart and fairly ambitious also at least a bit ambivalent about the whole thing, but Butrick still makes it at least believable enough that, even noting the inconsistencies, the new version at least makes enough sense, is believable enough depiction in, for III.
Robin Curtis is my favourite Saavik. It probably helps that TSFS is my favourite Trek film and I've watched it way more times than any other (although TVH comes close), and that Robin Curtis just seems like a wonderful, warm, down to earth person (certainly in every interview that I've seen or read).
I think Robin gave an incredibly nuanced performance in TSFS. I can see the emotions so close to her surface Vulcan calm - from her excitement and wonder at discovering Spock's burial tube on Genesis, through her dignified guidance but slight apprehension at guiding Spock through pon farr, and the shock of David's death and having to deliver that news to Kirk.
I was so thrilled that she featured in 765874: Unification - her scene was by far the most awesome and touching for me.
I think Robin gave an incredibly nuanced performance in TSFS. I can see the emotions so close to her surface Vulcan calm - from her excitement and wonder at discovering Spock's burial tube on Genesis, through her dignified guidance but slight apprehension at guiding Spock through pon farr, and the shock of David's death and having to deliver that news to Kirk.
I was so thrilled that she featured in 765874: Unification - her scene was by far the most awesome and touching for me.
