Well, as the Son'a showed from their disfigurements, once you leave the planet you're pretty much fucked.
Nemesis is better than Insurrection: Convince me otherwise.
- Thread starter Mr. Friscus
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Shinzon pulling himself up was supposed to make the whole thing be a sort of version L’Morte D’Arthure. But, that all became a muddled mess in everything else on screen, not least because this was supposed to be a ‘part one’ which was hubris in the end because we didn’t get a part two. (‘a generations final adventure begins’) Not until Picard S3 at least.
And that’s the problem — of all the Treks you can maybe end on a down note, TNG really is the one least likely for that to work with. If Trek had ended with Wrath of Khan, that would have been a bitter pill for fandom (albeit somewhat better because at least it didn’t have to mess the characters up so much to get to it’s ending) too.
Nemesis is bad because it is messier than even Insurrection, but both suffer from to same problem — letting Stewart and Spiner have too much control over the production including the script.
It’s oddly telling that even TFF *doesn’t* suffer as badly from that, because it at least gave the ensemble cast some scenes and something to do, despite TOS being much more focused on the lead and two Co-stars in general. TNG the *ensemble* show didn’t remember that once it was on the big screen, though at least Riker and Troi get a through-line between INS and NEM.
The final nail was Baird, who, in this case, was just a fool. But then he got the gig as quid-pro-quo for editing Tomb Raider. Paramount just didn’t care at this point basically, and it shows.
INS had the same problems, but not quite as badly (Spiner wasn’t quite as coddled, Stewart still was) and as others have pointed out, it also had Frakes. Who was far far more competent a director, not only of this cast, but also in general. (He, I suspect, would have made it clear that the ‘bottomless pit’ on the enterprise either ran the length of the ship horizontally, or would have dropped the scene, at the very least for example. It’s not even worth mentioning how much better he would have handled making the character elements better and kept them in the film.)
It also had Piller, who had more focus on Trek than Logan, but the Piller was treated badly when making INS I think.
And that’s the problem — of all the Treks you can maybe end on a down note, TNG really is the one least likely for that to work with. If Trek had ended with Wrath of Khan, that would have been a bitter pill for fandom (albeit somewhat better because at least it didn’t have to mess the characters up so much to get to it’s ending) too.
Nemesis is bad because it is messier than even Insurrection, but both suffer from to same problem — letting Stewart and Spiner have too much control over the production including the script.
It’s oddly telling that even TFF *doesn’t* suffer as badly from that, because it at least gave the ensemble cast some scenes and something to do, despite TOS being much more focused on the lead and two Co-stars in general. TNG the *ensemble* show didn’t remember that once it was on the big screen, though at least Riker and Troi get a through-line between INS and NEM.
The final nail was Baird, who, in this case, was just a fool. But then he got the gig as quid-pro-quo for editing Tomb Raider. Paramount just didn’t care at this point basically, and it shows.
INS had the same problems, but not quite as badly (Spiner wasn’t quite as coddled, Stewart still was) and as others have pointed out, it also had Frakes. Who was far far more competent a director, not only of this cast, but also in general. (He, I suspect, would have made it clear that the ‘bottomless pit’ on the enterprise either ran the length of the ship horizontally, or would have dropped the scene, at the very least for example. It’s not even worth mentioning how much better he would have handled making the character elements better and kept them in the film.)
It also had Piller, who had more focus on Trek than Logan, but the Piller was treated badly when making INS I think.
Eh I'm not gonna try to convince you otherwise because I agree with you. I loved Nemesis in theaters and still enjoy it a lot today. I find it to be much more enjoyable than Insurrection and don't find nearly the issues with the movie that a lot of fans do.
Stuart Baird may not have been a good fit for Star Trek, but Executive Decision and U.S. Marshals were both crackerjack action films, the former being very well received on release and had an incredibly high moment when Steven Seagal's character was suddenly killed off in the first act.
Stuart Baird may not have been a good fit for Star Trek, but Executive Decision and U.S. Marshals were both crackerjack action films, the former being very well received on release and had an incredibly high moment when Steven Seagal's character was suddenly killed off in the first act.
How so? The Son'a did it to themselves by using their technology to delay death and constant cosmetic surgery to stretch their skin. Other than being pissed they're no longer getting the effects of the rings, leaving the planet doesn't make a difference.
It is worth noting that TOS cast members who are noted for their dislike of Shatner have none-the-less praised him as a director. For example, Nichelle Nichols in her "Beyond Uhura" book talks about what a great director he was to work with. (Her theory is that he was always jockeying to be in control as an actor and that once he was actually given control and that was not questioned, he actually got more comfortable and became more a part of the team.) By contrast, I've heard none of the TNG cast compliment Baird as a director.
As I mentioned before, I think Baird is a talented individual. But the fact that he had no knowledge of Trek and no interest in learning is inexcusable. Robert Wise and Harve Bennett, for example, have both discussed how they "went to school" and watched a great deal of Trek before diving into their respective Trek projects. Also, it's certainly not a great approach to pick a director based on "well, we owe this guy a project" rather than choosing someone who actually wants the job and is interested in the material.
They left the planet a century before the events of Insurrection. And their disfigurements are completely self-inflicted.
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Insurrection also has that fascinating book "Fade In" to explain why it is the way it is. Nemesis has a stupid car chase and Deanna crashing the ship again.
Insurrection has Geordi seeing a sunset with his own eyes, instead of with a VISOR or optical implants.
Nemesis has Picard tell Troi to accept mind rape to find Shinzon, and neither Troi (the victim), Beverly (the CMO and the victim’s best friend), or Riker (first officer and the victim’s husband) push back on the idea.
Nemesis has Picard tell Troi to accept mind rape to find Shinzon, and neither Troi (the victim), Beverly (the CMO and the victim’s best friend), or Riker (first officer and the victim’s husband) push back on the idea.
For that reason I condemn rather than praise Janeway for the events of "Endgame".
IMO the soundtrack, the Scimitar, the doppleganger ideals, and the final battle make Nemesis far above Insurrection
Goldsmith's intro in Insurrection is amazing, so delightful. Meanwhile, his drudging, war-like, brass filled, textrural Nemesis soundtrack is that much better.
While the action was stupid strategically (and only used to put forth a crucial spot for Troi to effect the outcome)... the virtue signaling that it happened justifies completely crushing the movie is lame. There's a ton of good movies that have horrible actions worse than "mind rape" that are classics.
While it was stupidly used in Nemesis... it's not as if you're some elevated human who would be above watching a movie with it. We all watch movies with murder and horrible actions all the time and call them amazing.
No, what justifies crushing the movie is that it sucked from beginning to end.
While I applaud your enthusiasm, I must tell you that posting more than twice in succession is not looked upon well. Please use the editing feature, Mr. Friscus.
The final battle in Nemesis does nothing to me. It feels slow and plodding. DS9 did far better battle sequences on a comparatively minuscule TV budget.
And the Scimitar is absolutely ridiculous. A superweapon that has to deploy some ridiculous wing things and take 7 minutes to charge its weapon before it can fire?
I have to say Insurrection is better than Nemesis simply because we had Michael Pillar's touch, and he helped craft the Berman era Trek we all know and love, for the most part. As a feature film, it's largest criticism is that it felt like an episode of TNG, but this may not be the only criticism. It's really the only one I can think of, at the moment. Michael Pillar's original Heart of Darkness script/his "Fade to black" book published by his family(?) is definitely worth a look.
On the other hand, for Nemesis, you had some misfires and missed opportunities. You had John Logan taking script notes from Patrick Steward and Brent Spiner to the point that it was a film about Picard, Data, and the gang instead of the TNG crew. They utilized the Romulans without leaning on TNG connections (Sela, Tomalak, etc) You also had a director who was a great film editor but completely foreign to directing Trek, thinking Geordi LaForge is an alien, and treating him as such. Some of the cast felt a little alienated during filming, (maybe alienated isnt the right word choice, I'm pulling from memories formed 20+ years ago) and he just didn't seem to understand what makes Star Trek "Star Trek". If you listen to Stuart Baird's audio commentary, you can see where he was coming from making the film.
As a feature film, Nemesis has many criticisms - it was billed as "A Generation's final journey beginning" implying it was the beginning of the end, when it actuality, scenes were left on the cutting room floor and it was edited into an action hero movie with car chases, explosions, and another physical showdown between Picard the movie's Villain. (with third act special guest star Data). Ultimately, it was the end of the TNG films instead of setting us up for "The Search for Data" movie that we never had. That is, until Star Trek: Picard came along...
It's funny, when I was younger, I preferred Nemesis over Insurrection because it gave me all the things I liked in a kid in Star Trek and then some. (Space battles, pew pew, bridge viewscreen exploding, Picard's evil clone, etc.) Now that I am older and have seen TNG from beginning to end and all the other series and movies, my tastes flipped. But I can also safely say I never truly disliked either film.
On the other hand, for Nemesis, you had some misfires and missed opportunities. You had John Logan taking script notes from Patrick Steward and Brent Spiner to the point that it was a film about Picard, Data, and the gang instead of the TNG crew. They utilized the Romulans without leaning on TNG connections (Sela, Tomalak, etc) You also had a director who was a great film editor but completely foreign to directing Trek, thinking Geordi LaForge is an alien, and treating him as such. Some of the cast felt a little alienated during filming, (maybe alienated isnt the right word choice, I'm pulling from memories formed 20+ years ago) and he just didn't seem to understand what makes Star Trek "Star Trek". If you listen to Stuart Baird's audio commentary, you can see where he was coming from making the film.
As a feature film, Nemesis has many criticisms - it was billed as "A Generation's final journey beginning" implying it was the beginning of the end, when it actuality, scenes were left on the cutting room floor and it was edited into an action hero movie with car chases, explosions, and another physical showdown between Picard the movie's Villain. (with third act special guest star Data). Ultimately, it was the end of the TNG films instead of setting us up for "The Search for Data" movie that we never had. That is, until Star Trek: Picard came along...
It's funny, when I was younger, I preferred Nemesis over Insurrection because it gave me all the things I liked in a kid in Star Trek and then some. (Space battles, pew pew, bridge viewscreen exploding, Picard's evil clone, etc.) Now that I am older and have seen TNG from beginning to end and all the other series and movies, my tastes flipped. But I can also safely say I never truly disliked either film.
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It could have stopped after V to be honest. VI is overrated, partially because it *looked* better than V. But V had the better story and performances, and the open ending of everyone back on the Enterprise and a potential peace with the Klingon Empire.
Well, if we're gonna go there, I would have stopped at TVH (much as a wanted them to keep going). The loose trilogy was wrapped up, Spock was back, the Enterprise restored and there was the nice feeling of the crew going on to other adventures. Also we wouldn't have two more films that, while ambitious in story, were filled with goofiness, gags and self parody which diluted their impact.
However, while I do agree that TUC is a little overrated, the theatrical version is still an excellent finale for the OG cast (the DE is pointless with scenes that actually make it feel sillier - Meyers Trek's were cut to their theatrical lengths for good reason), and better in that regard than TFF or TVH. It is a great way to tie up some lingering concepts (Klingon relations, Kirk's emotional closure, etc) and end TOS without endless callbacks and fanwank.
I still enjoyed the TNG movies, though. Generations holds a special place in my heart for various reasons (the wonderful score by Dennis McCarthy plays a huge part), First Contact is lean, confident and fun, Insurrection has some really funny moments and gives us the closest to TV Picard as we got in theaters (and Jerry Goldsmith delivers his most lyrical score) and Nemesis....what can I say? I still really enjoy this film. I love the lighting and sound design, Baird is still a great action director and the cast did great. None of the TNG films are as enjoyable for me as the TOS films mostly because, as an OG fan who watched TOS reruns endlessly throughout the 70's, those movies were legit special and fed a decade long hunger and were the only Trek game in town for awhile. TNG movies were just continuations right after the series ended while new Trek in the same era was on TV.
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