Missed opportunities in the (TOS) movies?

[Green]

It makes perfect sense for Meyer not to use Curtis -- Saavik was shown quite emotional as a "Half-Romulan" in TWOK. And while Catrall didn't play Valeris nearly as emotional as that -- she was far more emotive than the way Curtis played the character in TSFS. I think the Saavik/Valeris character in VI was a more under control but still with a lot of turmoil under the surface to have been part of such an extreme plan. I couldn't see a full Vulcan justifying murder, treason, conspiracy, war, betrayal -- but the conflicted half-Romulan whose adoptive family (Enterprise crew) had been thru so much -- the loss of her fellow cadets, Spock (temporarily), the Enterprise, David, etc.
Combine that with the way the crew was treated by Starfleet -- may have led her to rationalize her actions. Curtis' Saavik just didn't seem to have the energy for anything like that.

 

[Green]

McCoy -- "She change her face again?"
Kirk -- " I hadn't noticed."
McCoy -- "Wonderful stuff, that Suspension of disbelief."

I think it could have worked. Curtis hadn't played Saavik in 7 years at that point -- besides the two lines of dialogue in Voyage Home. The more important and rounded Saavik of TWOK was still probably what people thought of when they thought of the character.
"Who Mourns for Curtis?" -- I think not too many at that point would have cared.

Still wish someone had died in VI. I guess that was never going to happen in a celebratory 25th anniversary movie, but I sure wish there had been a sacrifice to save the peace/federation.
McCoy, Scotty or Chekov. A McCoy death would have been gut-wrenching.
He was the oldest (barely), the father figure, the frailest and most beloved actor in the cast. I daresay his death may have been more upsetting than Spock's. Damn, Farpoint!!

 

[Keycube]

I'm not sure if it's a missed opportunity as much as a commentary on filmmaking, but...

As someone getting re-acquainted with the TV series, I'm amazed at how typically invested I am - and how emotionally exhausted I feel afterwards - with the story and the character's plight. With twice the running time and huge budgets, I never got the feeling with the movies (maybe a little bit with II, and some of TMP if I'm in the right mood). The TV show could sweat the small stuff and draw you in with the most minute of details because the show itself felt "small"; settings and characters were limited, and even with typically more sub-plots in play, you always feel satisfied (assuming the subject matter itself grabbed you). You never feel like the TV show leaves anything on the table.

I just recently saw the episode "Assignment: Earth", and couldn't believe when I looked at the clock, there was still 15 minutes to go in the show. I felt like I had been watching for hours, and was on the edge of my seat the whole time. And that's with the show bouncing back and forth a seemingly unusual amount to different settings, which takes time and can be distracting in terms of continuity. But it felt perfect.

The movies rarely grabbed me like that. I wish I could put my finger on it, but in simple terms it seems that the TV show replicated and compressed reality better. Not sure if this is just a sign of the times with what I refer to as "snapshot filmmaking" - with scenes being shot for maximum visual effect and then pieced together - as opposed to the emphasis on simply telling a cohesive story.

 

[Green]

Actually I think a meaningful sacrifice was a missed opportunity.....

We lost David -- but he wasn't beloved
We lost Spock -- but he came back
We lost the ship -- be we got a clone
We lost Saavik/Valeris -- but she had changed so much it wasn't like losing a regular

Had they placed Azetbur speaking last and an actual non disguised human as the shooter and had McCoy stepped in front of the shot to save her -- it would have meant so much more.
The Klingons had already lost Gorkon and many men aboard the Kronos -- had their new chancellor also been assassinated there would have been all out war for sure. It's not for certain the Federation would have jumped into war had their president had been killed by human or Klingon as the Federation generally is less warlike than the Klingons.

So have the crew beam down as Azetbur is speaking and have Kirk say, "If she's killed -- there's no stopping the war!" Kirk gets tackled by her security as he approaches her and McCoy looks up sees the barrel and knows his duty -- protect lives. He couldn't save the father, but he can save the daughter and the peace. He gets shot and mortally wounded. Azetbur sees him and remembers him saying -- "I was desparate to save him! He was the last hope for peace in the galaxy." line from earlier (which if you recall they cut to her reaction when he said that line.) Now she knows he meant it.
Kirk and the crew gather round McCoy.
He sees Azetbur alive and the shooter fall. He looks at Spock and says, "Not bad for an old country doctor, eh Spock?" Can you imagine Spock's face and reaction since we know how he felt about McCoy. Kirk is speechless and McCoy says, "It's alright Jim, I would have hated retirement and there's nowhere else I'd rather be than -- with my family. Jim, one last piece of advice, take my example -- don't die alone...."
Combine that with some real stirring music and not a dry eye in the house -- again! LOL
And the fact that we know there's no Katra, no Genesis, no time travel gonna bring back Bones -- a real loss. Would that have been considered an outrage by the fans?

 

[Kor]

Actually I think a meaningful sacrifice was a missed opportunity.....

We lost David -- but he wasn't beloved
We lost Spock -- but he came back
We lost the ship -- be we got a clone
We lost Saavik/Valeris -- but she had changed so much it wasn't like losing a regular

Had they placed Azetbur speaking last and an actual non disguised human as the shooter and had McCoy stepped in front of the shot to save her -- it would have meant so much more.
The Klingons had already lost Gorkon and many men aboard the Kronos -- had their new chancellor also been assassinated there would have been all out war for sure. It's not for certain the Federation would have jumped into war had their president had been killed by human or Klingon as the Federation generally is less warlike than the Klingons.

So have the crew beam down as Azetbur is speaking and have Kirk say, "If she's killed -- there's no stopping the war!" Kirk gets tackled by her security as he approaches her and McCoy looks up sees the barrel and knows his duty -- protect lives. He couldn't save the father, but he can save the daughter and the peace. He gets shot and mortally wounded. Azetbur sees him and remembers him saying -- "I was desparate to save him! He was the last hope for peace in the galaxy." line from earlier (which if you recall they cut to her reaction when he said that line.) Now she knows he meant it.
Kirk and the crew gather round McCoy.
He sees Azetbur alive and the shooter fall. He looks at Spock and says, "Not bad for an old country doctor, eh Spock?" Can you imagine Spock's face and reaction since we know how he felt about McCoy. Kirk is speechless and McCoy says, "It's alright Jim, I would have hated retirement and there's nowhere else I'd rather be than -- with my family. Jim, one last piece of advice, take my example -- don't die alone...."
Combine that with some real stirring music and not a dry eye in the house -- again! LOL
And the fact that we know there's no Katra, no Genesis, no time travel gonna bring back Bones -- a real loss. Would that have been considered an outrage by the fans?

That wouldn't be in continuity with "Encounter at Farpoint." That in itself is enough to cause a rabid, violent uproar.

Kor

 

[Phoenix219]

Saavik and David were the second attempt to expand the ageing cast. And they actually made it past their first movie.

Not disagreeing - your original post had just referenced it as the "original" and "next generation", which would be the TMP extended cast - they were original (planned for PII) and directly inspired TNG counterparts William Riker/Decker, sexual alien telepatc Troi/Ilia, and human-curious logical being Data/Xon.

 

[JRoss]

Actually I think a meaningful sacrifice was a missed opportunity.....

We lost David -- but he wasn't beloved
We lost Spock -- but he came back
We lost the ship -- be we got a clone
We lost Saavik/Valeris -- but she had changed so much it wasn't like losing a regular

Had they placed Azetbur speaking last and an actual non disguised human as the shooter and had McCoy stepped in front of the shot to save her -- it would have meant so much more.
The Klingons had already lost Gorkon and many men aboard the Kronos -- had their new chancellor also been assassinated there would have been all out war for sure. It's not for certain the Federation would have jumped into war had their president had been killed by human or Klingon as the Federation generally is less warlike than the Klingons.

So have the crew beam down as Azetbur is speaking and have Kirk say, "If she's killed -- there's no stopping the war!" Kirk gets tackled by her security as he approaches her and McCoy looks up sees the barrel and knows his duty -- protect lives. He couldn't save the father, but he can save the daughter and the peace. He gets shot and mortally wounded. Azetbur sees him and remembers him saying -- "I was desparate to save him! He was the last hope for peace in the galaxy." line from earlier (which if you recall they cut to her reaction when he said that line.) Now she knows he meant it.
Kirk and the crew gather round McCoy.
He sees Azetbur alive and the shooter fall. He looks at Spock and says, "Not bad for an old country doctor, eh Spock?" Can you imagine Spock's face and reaction since we know how he felt about McCoy. Kirk is speechless and McCoy says, "It's alright Jim, I would have hated retirement and there's nowhere else I'd rather be than -- with my family. Jim, one last piece of advice, take my example -- don't die alone...."
Combine that with some real stirring music and not a dry eye in the house -- again! LOL
And the fact that we know there's no Katra, no Genesis, no time travel gonna bring back Bones -- a real loss. Would that have been considered an outrage by the fans?

I would have really liked that. D never returned to the character, so we wouldn't have missed anything further. That scene alone would have atoned for all the missteps in TUC.

 

[Commander Kielbasa]

I would have really liked that. D never returned to the character, so we wouldn't have missed anything further. That scene alone would have atoned for all the missteps in TUC.

It would've conflicted with what was shown in the pilot of TNG...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Alley wasn't coming back and Curtis was a bore. Just pretend Valeris is Saavik played by a third actress.
There are only two lines of dialogue that would need to be changed if it was Saavik -- when Spock introduces her to the crew.

I've read one of the late scripts with Saavik. Except for the scene in Spock's quarters about the "expulsion from paradise," which is shorter, I don't think any of the dialogue has changed. Spock even has the "The lieutenant was the first Vulcan to graduate at the top of her class" line, referencing Saavik in the script.

 

[mos6507]

Definitely true. Curtis was interviewed a few years later and expressed her utter disappointment that Nick Meyer had not even tried to contact her about reprising Saavik. She even walked away from acting for some time.

I don't know much about Robin Curtis her other than her screen appearances and one convention appearance long ago but she comes across as someone a little too nice to suffer through the rough and tumble world of Hollywood. Part of that natural warmth and naivete is why I feel she was miscast as Saavik. Kirstie Alley's smokey voice and permanent look of contempt suits the role better. Kim Cattral is more in the Kirstie Alley mode than Curtis.

Saavik was shown quite emotional as a "Half-Romulan" in TWOK. And while Catrall didn't play Valeris nearly as emotional as that -- she was far more emotive than the way Curtis played the character in TSFS.

I kind of feel the opposite. Curtis attempted to play Saavik straight, but she wasn't every effective at it, because her natural personality and overall screen presence seems more bubbly and perky. Kirstie Alley's natural personality is cold and arrogant and confrontational which is not that different from Spock's expressions of annoyance with McCoy, etc... Passive-aggressive, maybe.

Probably the most emotionless rendition of a Vulcan was Tim Russ as Tuvok and I found that characterization to be quite boring and one-note. You can't play a Vulcan completely straight. You have to allow them to express emotion in a subtle way. It's still emotional, but within a very narrow band, sort of under-acted.

A good example of that would be the Galileo 7, where Spock is under constant stress/assault. If he played it like Tim Russ it would have been completely boring. You have to show signs of the character brushing up against the limits and occasionally stepping over the boundaries of his emotional restraints, just not too far afield.

Once you get to Quinto, of course, that's the opposite end of the spectrum as far as being too wide of an emotional range.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The traitor in TUC SHOULD have been Saavik. I don't care what Gene said, having a beloved character be the conspirator would have provided dramatic oomph that Trek often lacks. Nimoy plays the aftermath of the "mind rape" scene so well- Spock's practically in tears after forcibly extracting the info from Valeris. Imagine how much harder the scene would have been if it had been Saavik.

Agreed. I used to hate the idea of Saavik being a traitor to the Federation, but now I kind of love it. It gives the character a closure she never got in the movie series, and it would have been a LOT more surprising. And it's pretty obvious that the character was written as Saavik even in the final cut of the film, with her and Spock's "A lie?" "An omission/An error/A choice" refrain being reminiscent of TWOK's famous "You lied / I exaggerated" exchange.

Spock even has the "The lieutenant was the first Vulcan to graduate at the top of her class" line, referencing Saavik in the script.

Which never made much sense. Vulcans are supposed to be the intellectual giants of the Federation, but Valeris was the first to graduate at the top of her class? C'mon... Does anybody here really believe that Spock didn't finish first in his class at the Academy?

Maybe Spock was talking about Valeris graduating Command School. That I could believe.

Curtis attempted to play Saavik straight, but she wasn't every effective at it, because her natural personality and overall screen presence seems more bubbly and perky. Kirstie Alley's natural personality is cold and arrogant and confrontational which is not that different from Spock's expressions of annoyance with McCoy, etc...

You've met and spent time with both actresses, I assume? I mean, you're speaking with such authority as to what they're both really like...

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Answering the original question, here's my list:

-Continuing to show other areas of Enterprise, the way TMP did with the Rec Room, the Officer's Lounge, the Airlock, the Shuttlebay, and the color-coded other hallway level. The Enterprise never felt quite as expansive again.

-Hiring Kirstie Alley back as Saavik for STIII. The character was a home run in TWOK, and I wish she could have continued to be developed along the original lines.

-Not continuing with the practice of introducing younger protégé characters for the TOS cast to mentor. That would have been smart, long-term thinking.

-John Winston getting another cameo as Commander Kyle after TWOK. Or at least a decent close up instead of just profile shots.

-Bibi Besch not returning as Carol Marcus. She had a nice chemistry with Shatner, and I could believe the characters reconciling by the time of STVI, as was the original plan.

-As I noted above, having Kirstie Alley return as Saavik in STVI instead of casting Kim Cattrall as "Saavik-With-The-Serial-Numbers-Filed-Off" Valeris. Not that Cattrall wasn't great in the role, but Saavik would've been much better from a story standpoint.

-Developing alien antagonists beyond the Klingons. It might've been cool to see some Romulans or Orions on the big screen. By the time of STV, the Klingons were getting pretty played out.

-Speaking of STV, there was the germ of a decent story idea there. I wish they'd emphasized the suspense more and the Sha Ka Ree stuff less. An action movie with a tense hostage situation, along the lines of Die Hard on the Enterprise. I think Shatner would've been a great director for that, but he unfortunately got caught up wanting to make an "important" yet ultimately trite statement about the nature of God.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Which never made much sense. Vulcans are supposed to be the intellectual giants of the Federation, but Valeris was the first to graduate at the top of her class? C'mon... Does anybody here really believe that Spock didn't finish first in his class at the Academy?

Maybe Spock was talking about Valeris graduating Command School. That I could believe.

That makes sense. It's also possible that Spock may have not done so good in courses that had emotion-related aspects to them, which brought down his average somewhat, or one or more of Spock's Academy profs graded him harder than his mostly Human classmates.

 

[Pauln6]

Yes silly me for forgetting - Saavik as the traitor would have been amazing. Sometimes doing bad stuff to characters we love is good storytelling.

While I love Janice Rand and lamented her absence from TOS, how awesomely shocking would it have been if she'd stayed around until season two and been crushed to death instead of the security guard in By Any Other Name?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That makes sense. It's also possible that Spock may have not done so good in courses that had emotion-related aspects to them, which brought down his average somewhat, or one or more of Spock's Academy profs graded him harder than his mostly Human classmates.

Hmm. Maybe. Interesting theory. There could be a story or two there.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

While I love Janice Rand and lamented her absence from TOS, how awesomely shocking would it have been if she'd stayed around until season two and been crushed to death instead of the security guard in By Any Other Name?

Damn. That is ice cold.

I thought Tasha Yar getting killed by the oil slick was bad, but you may have just topped it.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Yes silly me for forgetting - Saavik as the traitor would have been amazing. Sometimes doing bad stuff to characters we love is good storytelling.

While I love Janice Rand and lamented her absence from TOS, how awesomely shocking would it have been if she'd stayed around until season two and been crushed to death instead of the security guard in By Any Other Name?

I wonder if Thompson had been serving in that capacity for a little bit already? That would explain his upsetness.

 

[Green]

It would've conflicted with what was shown in the pilot of TNG...

Yeah, but who cares. They did the same with Scotty and the world didn't end. He came out of the transporter and thought Kirk was alive. Then two years later Generation comes along and we realize before he went in the transporter he sees Kirk die.
Sure you can make an explanation to solve that and you could have made up one for McCoy. People worry too much about that stuff. It was tip of the hat cameo. It shouldn't dictate the future of the character in the movies.

I've read one of the late scripts with Saavik. Except for the scene in Spock's quarters about the "expulsion from paradise," which is shorter, I don't think any of the dialogue has changed. Spock even has the "The lieutenant was the first Vulcan to graduate at the top of her class" line, referencing Saavik in the script.

I had that script too. Got it in October 1991, two months before the movie came out! Boy was I disappointed at all the cut stuff. When you read then script first you kind of fall in love with that version.

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

While I understand the need for a lighthearted film after WoK and SFS, part of me always wanted a more dramatic picture of Kirk dealing with the grief of losing David and the Enterprise alongside Spock's slow reclamation of his identity after his resurrection. The final conclusion (crew helping to save the Federation/Earth/etc and thus getting the charges cleared) could have been the same as TVH too; just more epic journey than wacky 20th century comedy.

I guess the overall concept, along with the crew more or less being fugitives from Starfleet would be tricky to appeal to a mass audience, but damn it would have been interesting.

 

[DonIago]

TPTB may have felt that after two pretty serious installments it was time for something a bit less heavy.