I do not actually expect him to push his claim. I always felt Maester Aemon's talk of passing his claim to the throne would foreshadow Jon. Everything he does is basically for the good of the realm and not his own benefit.
Spoilers Game of Thrones - Season 7
- Thread starter dahj
- Start date
I do not actually expect him to push his claim. I always felt Maester Aemon's talk of passing his claim to the throne would foreshadow Jon. Everything he does is basically for the good of the realm and not his own benefit.
I did some research, and there's not actually a consensus on aunt/nephew or niece/uncle marriages among Westerosi society, so it would ultimately come down, I think, to Jon and Dany's own decisions and whether or not they were able to garner the full support of the people.
One of the things that bothered me about "The Dragon and the Wolf" is how the Sansa/Arya storyline clearly omitted information when going from Arya and Sansa fighting each other to them both turning on Littlefinger. While it's obvious the show was holding things back as an absurd means to surprise the audience about who was really the focus of the inquest, it turns out that there was a scene between Sansa and Bran that was cut out. From a Variety interview with Isaac Hempstead Wright:
While the inclusion of this scene wouldn't have fixed the overall problems, it certainly would've smoothed out some of the wrinkles. I guess this means Arya really intended to scare the shit out of Sansa.
It’s clear after Sansa turns the tables on Littlefinger that she has had some sort of conversation with Bran, but we don’t get to see it. When did it take place?
We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran’s door and says, “I need your help,” or something along those lines. So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she’s like, “Oh, s—.”
We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran’s door and says, “I need your help,” or something along those lines. So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she’s like, “Oh, s—.”
I think if they'd included that scene, it would've been too obvious that she'd copped on to LF. As it was, I was genuinely worried for Arya when she walked into the hall and I yelled in triumph when Sansa addressed the question to Lord Baelish. Had the deleted scene been included, it would've been obvious that she knew his game, via All-Seeing-Bran.
That's one of the few things I didn't like about the finale. It felt cheap and dishonest. Deceiving the audience to that degree did produce a shock moment, but it didn't feel legit to me at least. I think they were so focused on obtaining that shock that they didn't consider how they were achieving it. YMMV. Despite that, I still enjoyed the Littlefinger's final scene and it's great the Stark kids are together and in unison.
IMO jon only became King of the North because it would give him the ability to help defeat the white walkers. I think he is more comfortable leading battles than ruling.
Agreed.
When Arya entered the hall it looked like she was assessing the guards for combat. When Sansa turned her head and addressed Littlefinger it was a really WTF moment!
Unfortunately, he's not good at either job. The Battle of the Bastards proved him to be a terrible general. He would do better as a footsoldier or a noncom officer.
If the scene had been edited to just show the beginning of a scene, or even there had been a different cut in the scene that we got that focused on a glance between Sansa and Bran then it would have been more clear without overly telling too much.
EDIT: I'm going to take that last part back after watching the scene again. It is pretty obvious that Sansa has been speaking with Bran and I don't think we really need anything else for us to connect the dots.
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I think it could have been done effectively with just a little sleight of hand.
First you have a scene, much like the one we got with Littlefinger pouring poison in Sansa's ear, trying to stoke her fear of Arya. Somewhere in there you have him say something to the effect of "how can you trust someone you don't know anymore. Who really knows what she's been up to all these years..."
That leads you to a truncated version of the scene described above. Sansa goes to Bran in the Godswood, sits down with him and says "I can't risk assumptions about who I can trust, there's something I need to know for certain..." And the scene cuts on Bran nodding an affirmative. The idea being you make it seem like she's digging for dirt on Arya, but it's not till the trial it becomes obvious she was really looking into Littlefinger. The clue (and there must be a clue if one is to play fair with the audience) is in connecting the "assume the worst" game and the "who to trust line". The payoff for this is both Sansa and Bran using Peter's own words against him.
If you remove that piece with Bran (which they did) and the turnaround just seems arbitrary (which it did) because you've withheld a vital logical plot point. Sure, some people might figure it out, but that's the whole point of a "whodunnit!?" style mystery. Without the real clue hiding in plain sight then the red-herring clue becomes bereft of context and thus, meaningless.
I get the impression they want to avoid using Bran as the Deus Ex Machina solution of the week. He's become way too powerful a character, which is obviously needed to offset the NK, but it's not Bran's time to really engage in the ultimate badass smackdown that we all know is coming. So, he's been quietly sequestered away until being brought out for the occasional WTF moment or the final battle royale.
The annoying thing about Bran is that clearly that omitted scene suggests that he only told Sansa because she asked him. At what point, if any, would he have intervened if Sansa had tried to take down Arya? He's about as annoying as Doctor Manhattan!
I loved the scene at the end, but we definitely needed something to join the dots between Sansa and Arya are at each other's throats to Sansa and Arya are on the same page.
I suppose the interesting side effect of Jon's heritage if it is revealed is that Sansa really is the legitimate Lady of Winterfell (well if we take Bran out of the picture)
I loved the scene at the end, but we definitely needed something to join the dots between Sansa and Arya are at each other's throats to Sansa and Arya are on the same page.
I suppose the interesting side effect of Jon's heritage if it is revealed is that Sansa really is the legitimate Lady of Winterfell (well if we take Bran out of the picture)
Good episode, but it left me wondering a few points.
How did Cersi and Euron know to set up his "departure" to the Iron Islands in advance? Even if they knew they'll be presented with a wight, they couldn't have known about the swimming part, which was Euron's catalyst\excuse to leave.
Regarding John's real father. I wonder how the line of succession would have worked if Rhaegar's children from his previous marriage weren't killed. It seem odd that the heir to the throne could be from a cast aside queen.
How did Cersi and Euron know to set up his "departure" to the Iron Islands in advance? Even if they knew they'll be presented with a wight, they couldn't have known about the swimming part, which was Euron's catalyst\excuse to leave.
Regarding John's real father. I wonder how the line of succession would have worked if Rhaegar's children from his previous marriage weren't killed. It seem odd that the heir to the throne could be from a cast aside queen.
He didn't know about his Aunt's wedding until he actually went looking for it. So the the implication of the scene with Sam is that Bran doesn't actually know *everything* that's happened (at least not consciously), so much that he *can*.
He's also not omnipresent. Right now his focus is mostly on the wall and the Night King. He's not really checking up on what his sisters are up to all that much.
She's the oldest living trueborn child of Ned Stark that is even remotely interested in the job, so yes.
He should really also start checking on what Cersei's up to...
Sipping wine and glowering mostly, I imagine. It won't be much of a shock
They don't need to set up his excuse in advance. Euron is smart enough to pick the right moment to make it look natural.
Thos wily pirates, don'cha know?
Haha. Just kidding.
If Jon's siblings hadn't been killed, they would've been in front of him in the line of succession. Take a look at this family/marriage tree.
Daenerys is the 3rd child of King Aerys II. However, her eldest brother Rhaegar was the crown prince. Meaning he was next in line to become king. Which also means that all of Rhaegar's sires (Rhaneys II, Aegon VI and Aegon VII/Jon) come before Viserys and Dany.
The Lion King had an exchange like this.
1:25 - 1:44
Of Rhaegar's children, Rhaneys II was the oldest. Being a royal princess, I imagine she would've ended up marrying a high lord, but he would not be the king. Sort of like the Queen of England, Elizabeth II. Her husband is Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, but he is not the king. Their eldest son, Prince Charles, will be king though.
As for Aegon VI and Aegon VII/Jon, they would've likely remained princes forever. With no real responsibilities or expectations. Viserys and Daenerys would've likely been in the same boat. Prince and princess forever.
^ But if Rhaegar's first marriage was annulled, that would have ended the entitlement of the children from that marriage to the throne. Jon/Aegon minor becomes heir.
Also, while the Targaryen family went back on forth on princesses being entitled to inherit the throne (as oppose to becoming queen when they married a male relative), IIRC at the time of the Mad King there was male primogeniture, meaning that even if Rhaneys survived and her parents' marriage wasn't annulled, her brother's claim would overtake hers. Just like how if Prince Charles had died as a child, Prince Andrew would've been next in line, rather than his big sister Princess Anne.
Also, while the Targaryen family went back on forth on princesses being entitled to inherit the throne (as oppose to becoming queen when they married a male relative), IIRC at the time of the Mad King there was male primogeniture, meaning that even if Rhaneys survived and her parents' marriage wasn't annulled, her brother's claim would overtake hers. Just like how if Prince Charles had died as a child, Prince Andrew would've been next in line, rather than his big sister Princess Anne.
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