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Forget "Best of Both World..."

Who_Trek

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Forget "The Best of the Both World".

Forget "In the Pale Moonlight."

I love those eps, but ... the hands-down best Trek story of all time has to be the Vulcan Trilogy from Ent. 4th seaon. I watched it again last night, and every time I see it, it just bowls me over. What a great story!
 
I enjoyed this trilogy, but my favorite was the Andorian/Romulan 3-parter.
The Vulcan arc is a close second though.
 
Forget "The Best of the Both World".

Forget "In the Pale Moonlight."

I love those eps, but ... the hands-down best Trek story of all time has to be the Vulcan Trilogy from Ent. 4th seaon. I watched it again last night, and every time I see it, it just bowls me over. What a great story!

Nah, ITPM and BOBW were far superior.

Nothing from ENT compares.
 
I loved the Vulcan trilogy with "The Forge" being a standout but it doesn't come even close to The Best of Both Worlds. BoBW was an event for all time. It was fatalistic, dark with its near-apocalyptic storyline. The performances were riveting especially with Stewart as Locutus in a chilling performance, the music was exceptional, the Borg were the ultimate adversary, the final shot of Locutus in Part I was jaw-dropping ushering in the cliffhanger which since then has become a tradition in season finales on television. It was a nail-biter.

The Vulcan saga was outstanding but wasn't quite on that level. It was a solid story that easily could have come from a novel or been a feature film with some tweaking. It made the Vulcans and their world truly alien, the on location shots were great, and it added in a very rich way to the Trek universe.
 
Those were all good episodes, but you can't put them in the same league as TATV! (Ducks!!)
 
I love those eps, but ... the hands-down best Trek story of all time has to be the Vulcan Trilogy from Ent. 4th seaon. I watched it again last night, and every time I see it, it just bowls me over. What a great story!

That's definitely my favorite set of eps from s4. :bolian:
 
Nah, ITPM and BOBW were far superior.

Nothing from ENT compares.
I disagree. IMO, Azati Prime/Damage and Similitude are all right up there.
Azati Prime's cliffhanger is easily as powerful and shocking as Best of Both Worlds Part I.

In Pale Moonlight, Sisko's role is largely to look the other way while others do the dirty work.
In Damage, Archer abandons his principles and personally commits piracy to achieve his goal. He'll do the same in Similitude when he insists that Sim be sacrificed to save Trip.
 
Forget "The Best of the Both World".

Forget "In the Pale Moonlight."

I love those eps, but ... the hands-down best Trek story of all time has to be the Vulcan Trilogy from Ent. 4th seaon. I watched it again last night, and every time I see it, it just bowls me over. What a great story!

Nah, ITPM and BOBW were far superior.

Nothing from ENT compares.


I gotta disagree. I thought that ENT had a lot of great standout episodes, with top-notch work in all four seasons. "The Forge" in the 4th season Vulcan trilogy is a real gem. They just hit that one out of the park. Not fair to say that nothing from ENT compares to the work in other series. They all had their share of great episodes, and clunkers too!
 
Forget "The Best of the Both World".

Forget "In the Pale Moonlight."

I love those eps, but ... the hands-down best Trek story of all time has to be the Vulcan Trilogy from Ent. 4th seaon. I watched it again last night, and every time I see it, it just bowls me over. What a great story!

It's pretty high up there in my opinion, but I'm not ready to place it above ITPM or The Visitor. I'd rank it above BOBW, though.
 
ENT season 4 was just great. My favorite episode of probably all Star Trek is Observer Effect and my favorite "Trilogy" was Babel One/United/The Aenar. Great stuff there. Say what you want about Enterprise but when it was good it was great and they really had the essence of Trek down in Season 4.
 
Nah, ITPM and BOBW were far superior.

Nothing from ENT compares.
I disagree. IMO, Azati Prime/Damage and Similitude are all right up there.
Azati Prime's cliffhanger is easily as powerful and shocking as Best of Both Worlds Part I.

Once again I agree with Jinx.
I have to agree that BOBW does rank up there with the very best of all Treks of all time, but the Xindi Arc was as powerful as the Borg.

THe battle sequence of Azati Prime and the opening sequence of Twilight chill me to this day.
 
Nah, ITPM and BOBW were far superior.

Nothing from ENT compares.
I disagree. IMO, Azati Prime/Damage and Similitude are all right up there.
Azati Prime's cliffhanger is easily as powerful and shocking as Best of Both Worlds Part I.

Once again I agree with Jinx.
I have to agree that BOBW does rank up there with the very best of all Treks of all time, but the Xindi Arc was as powerful as the Borg.

THe battle sequence of Azati Prime and the opening sequence of Twilight chill me to this day.

Yes! I am a well-known Xindi booster, and the whole third season resonated to powerfully with me. Azate Prime is just a monumentally good episode all around!
 
The fourth season of ENT is da bomb diggity! Seriously, though, I thought that the Vulcan trilogy was the best arc that ModTrek has done. I also liked that ENT showed the Vulcans not to be a monolothic race only dedicated to logic and such. It called back to how seemingly emotional they could be on TOS ("Amok Time" with T'Pring and Stonn, TSfS with Sarek and his "doubtful" logic when it come to Spock).

I also liked the idea of Vulcans having redacted Surak's teachings over time much like how the bible has been fiddled with over time depending on the current culture and society. The notion that the Kir'Shana was the Dead Sea Scrolls was a good plot point.
 
Forget "The Best of the Both World".

Forget "In the Pale Moonlight."

I love those eps, but ... the hands-down best Trek story of all time has to be the Vulcan Trilogy from Ent. 4th seaon. I watched it again last night, and every time I see it, it just bowls me over. What a great story!
Nah, ITPM and BOBW were far superior.

Nothing from ENT compares.
Hmm, surprisingly, I kind of agree with you from a certain standpoint. BoBW was one of the few TNG episodes that was truly compelling, IMO, thats why it is one of the few that maintains it's re-watchability. TNG's legacy to the Trek world is profundity, which often devolves into preachy banality over the passage of time. Thus the lack of re-watchbility of so many of the rest of the series.

ENT's legacy is the high number of compelling episodes, mostly concentrated in seasons 3 and 4. Azati Prime/Damage (as others have mentioned) easily matches and actually surpasses BoBW in the "compelling" department, while "The Forge" and the rest of the V trilogy and several others, follow closely.

ENT's "compellingness" will allow the series to maintain it's "shelf life" longer and better than any of the spinoffs save DS9.
 
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Azati Prime/Damage (as others have mentioned) easily matches and actually surpasses BoBW in the "compelling" department
AP/Damage are compelling, no doubt. They are some of my favorite Trek episodes of all time but personally they don't come close to BoBW.

BoBW is rightfully hailed as one of the best of Trek and I certainly wouldn’t dispute that. BoBW was like a religious experience for those that watched it that first time in 1990.

Michael Piller conceived a perfect episode including all the elements any fan would want out of a doomsday event. The AP cliffhanger while great can't beat the shock of Locutus and Riker ordering Worf to fire. We pretty much knew how AP would play out with the Xindi halting their attack. What impresses me is the fact Michael Piller wrote Part II months later with very little idea how he was going to wrap up Part I yet you couldn’t tell that.

The BoBW score was fantastic. The character drama was riveting. And to compare the crew's reaction to the loss of their respective captains you see how much more impressive BoBW was. Shelby’s initial look of horror or Worf’s “He is a Borg” or Beverly thinking of recovering him to Wesley holding his head down. Picard's assimilation had the weight of a loss of a national leader or head of the family. We all knew Archer would be saved because he is critical to the Federation and Daniels wouldn't allow him to die. He would have just whisked him away as we saw he did in Zero Hour. And you knew Daniels would never allow the weapon to destroy Earth. If it came down to it he would have sent a squad of temporal agents to stop the weapon. Not so with the Borg situation.

Archer's scene with Phlox before going on the mission doesn't compare to the riveting discussion between Picard and Guinan with all of their historical allusions and frank pragmatic assessment of the situation. And Trip's trying to get T'Pol to snap out of her funk is nowhere near as good as Guinan and Riker's conversation in Part II.

And while I loved the Xindi they can't compare to the Borg who are a far more compelling and interesting adversary. We were used to seeing adversaries who had a hierarchy, leaders, governments to negotiate with; individuals with understandable motives. But now the Federation was facing a force of nature devoid of any malice directed at their victims and without any sense of morality. The two-parter also really touched on a lot of things that were unnerving including the idea of a fate worse than death and to be denied death. Really Trek had never been so fatalistic.

And the way BoBW continuously topped itself. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse it did. Borg entering Federation space, Starfleet hadn't developed new technology to combat the Borg, Picard is kidnapped,
the Borg are now on a direct course to Sector 0-0-1—Earth, Picard is then assimilated, now the Collective knows of the crew's tactics culminating with the arrival of the Enterprise at Wolf 359 where we see the graveyard of ships. Nothing comes close to the dramatic impact of this scene until years later with DS9 and the Dominion War. Shelby begins naming off the destroyed ships and the crew takes a moment to absorb this and think of the lives lost in a solemn sobering moment mentioning the Melbourne as being one of the ships destroyed. That carries an extra tragic irony since it was the ship Riker was offered in Part I. It was those kinds of touches that just make BoBW just that much better.

ENT had higher quality CGI visuals. But both had powerfully effective images that were as effective as any dialog. The ominous sight of the Xindi weapon in its cradle. The dreaded moment of visual contact between the Borg and the Enterprise with the sight of the Borg vessel barely visible soon filling the screen revealing the chilling sight of the cube in all its intimidating glory. Wow, what a powerfully effecting image. At that moment it conveyed to me perfectly the sensation one would experience confronting evil incarnate. The presentation of Picard’s reveal of having been assimilated was highly effective providing the most impact with the profile before turning to show half of his face and head were implanted with technology as the laser attachment filled the screen.

While I'm one of the few who actually loved T'Pol's struggle with emotionas and trellium in AP/Damage it could never come close to the wringer Picard went through. Much like in “Chain of Command”, his trauma was wrenching as his humanity is systematically stripped from him piece by piece all the while he remains helpess. Then to be complicit in the destruction of a fleet of ships and 11000 lives. Whoa that is heavy stuff. Picard can only shed a single tear that falls from his cheek. This scene is so powerful because it doesn’t use graphic violence or conventional torture. Now compare that to the silliness of Archer's insults and beating in AP. It comes across as cartoonish and drains a lot of AP's drama and gravity it generated.

For all Archer knows the Weapon is on its way to Earth and he trades insults.

Both had great battle sequences. And while TNG didn't have CGI I thought the choreographed assault on the cube with the Enterprise separating off into the saucer and drive sections unleashing the anti-matter spread was quite a stunning sight to behold.

And there were just so many more wonderful scenes that outnumbered AP/Damage. Locutus’ exchange with Worf in sickbay was excellent giving insight into the Borg mindset, Admiral Hanson recalling how he met Picard, the Shelby/Riker conflict, Riker having to make the call that would kill his friend and captain etc.

Picard had to live with all the deaths he felt responsible for while Archer had to live with stranding a ship where for all we know they survived or help came.

The Best of Both Worlds was compelling drama through and through whereas as much as I loved AP/Damage they did stray in a few instances into cartoonishness.

while "The Forge" and the rest of the V trilogy and several others, follow closely.

ENT's "compellingness" will allow the series to maintain it's "shelf life" longer and better than any of the spinoffs save DS9.
True ENT did do more epic storylines in its last two seasons while TNG chose to be more low-key but I see nothing wrong with being low-key. One isn't necessarily better than the other.
 
^^you certainly present an informed and well rounded argument. I wish I was able to match it admirably. I don't agree with you on several points, but would never be able to state it so elegantly.
 
^^you certainly present an informed and well rounded argument. I wish I was able to match it admirably. I don't agree with you on several points, but would never be able to state it so elegantly.
I agree, there were many excellent points made here.

I was simply making the point that Enterprise is NOT a poor imitation of Star Trek. There are plenty of episodes -- and IMO, a larger percentage of them -- that had equal, if not superior storytelling, performances and production values than the highly praised TNG.

As for BoBW, I agree. It was superb. In fact, IMO it would have made an excellent theatrical film (imagine seeing the fleet in ruins on the big screen!) -- certainly better than any of the TNG films we actually got, save "First Contact."
 
Forget "The Best of the Both World".

Forget "In the Pale Moonlight."

I love those eps, but ... the hands-down best Trek story of all time has to be the Vulcan Trilogy from Ent. 4th seaon. I watched it again last night, and every time I see it, it just bowls me over. What a great story!

The "Super!Archer! Brings Enlightenment to the Noble Savages" arc better that BoBW or In the Pale Moonlight? No. Fucking. Way. Insane Archer running around the desert with a katra in his head playing at Indiana Jones doesn't in any way compare with humanity and the Federation coming within an inch of being wiped out, or Sisko coming to the realization that he can live with having been part of an assasination and a cover-up to bring the Romulan Empire into the Dominion War.
 
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