Forget "Best of Both World..."

[gblews]

Azati Prime/Damage (as others have mentioned) easily matches and actually surpasses BoBW in the "compelling" department

Michael Piller conceived a perfect episode including all the elements any fan would want out of a doomsday event. The AP cliffhanger while great can't beat the shock of Locutus and Riker ordering Worf to fire. We pretty much knew how AP would play out with the Xindi halting their attack. What impresses me is the fact Michael Piller wrote Part II months later with very little idea how he was going to wrap up Part I yet you couldn’t tell that.

I'll put the sight of Starfleet's flagship listing bow over nacelles (backward), smoke pouring out of her, gaping holes in the hull out of which fly doomed crewmembers, all while her captain is paralyzed in a personal battle with her own out of control emotions, up against the BoBW ending any day. BTW, you may be one of the few who liked this aspect of T'Pol's development, but you are certainly not alone.

And anyone who didn't know the 1701-D crew would eventually free Picard from the Borg had to have been a novice Trek watcher. Of course we all knew that eventually the crew would defeat the Xindi, but that knowledge didn't stop us from enjoying the ride.

Also, part II of BoBW was not nearly as good as part I, while ENT's part II (Damage) was even better than it's part I (AP).

And to compare the crew's reaction to the loss of their respective captains you see how much more impressive BoBW was.

Conceded. We ARE talking about Jean-Luc compared to Jonathan, and I can't, nor will I even try, to argue the impact of Patrick Stewart's masterful acting as compared with the "impact" of Scott Bakula's acting.

What I don't concede is that this aspect alone lifts BoBW above AP/Damage. BoBW part II was pretty much a slightly above average TNG episode.

 

[Kegek]

Forget "The Best of the Both World".

Forget "In the Pale Moonlight."

No thanks. I enjoyed both. I still vividly recall when "Moonlight" first aired here, actually.

The Vulcan Trilogy was pretty entertaining, though not on the level of the Spiner Trilogy or the "Mirror Darkly" two-parter, let alone the episodes you refer to.

 

[startrekwatcher]

^^you certainly present an informed and well rounded argument. I wish I was able to match it admirably. I don't agree with you on several points, but would never be able to state it so elegantly.

Thank you I appreciate the kind words.

I was simply making the point that Enterprise is NOT a poor imitation of Star Trek.

I know many feel it was a poor imitation I however am not one of those. ENT had its problems and it is far from my favorite series but it shouldn't be dismissed. It did produce quite a few entertaining and sometimes even great stories that are as good as the best of Trek. I just happen to personally feel that BoBW is on a plane of excellence that really can't be touched. I can;t ever remember so riveted to the screen and I watch a lot of tv, both sci-fi and non sci-fi. There were most certainly episodes of Trek especially from DS9 during the War or ENT during the Xindi crisis that are most certainly compelling and epic but for me they never engaged me as viscerally and intellectually as BoBW. That was really an instance of genuis by the late Michael Piller being able to hit all the right notes--depicting a near-apocalyptic scenario, balancing so expertly plot and character all on a tv budget to where a two-parter is so universally remembered, universally loved and held up after nearly two decades.

It really had impact in so many ways from the constant use of the phrase "Resistance is futile" in popular culture, the season-ending cliffhanger most tv shows employ, the Borg, letting TNG step out from the shadows of TOS once and for all.

There are plenty of episodes -- and IMO, a larger percentage of them -- that had equal, if not superior storytelling, performances and production values than the highly praised TNG.

Well of course TNG can't compete with ENT as far as production values. As for acting chops I have to say that Patrick Stewart, Brent Spiner and LeVar Burton just outshine the entire ENT cast. There really wasn't a breakout character like Data or Worf on ENT. And TNG was far more consistent IMO and their standalones were just so much better than a lot of ENT's standalones made so much more obvious when ENT used TNG stories but not nearly as effectively as TNG--Extinction=Identity Crisis+The Inner Light+Genesis; Dawn=The Enemy; Regeneration(I do like)-"Q Who"-lite+Identity Crisis; Vanishing Point=The Next Phase+Frame of Mind+Eye of the Beholder etc. Plus TNG had stories like The Survivors, The Defector, The Measure of a Man, Clues, Night Terrors, Cause and Effect, Parallels, Relics, Schisms, Silicon Avatar, Family, Brothers, Tin Man etc.

That's not to say ENT didn't put out some great stuff--First Flight, Shuttlepod One, The Catwalk, Dead Stop, Minefield, Anomaly, Twilight, Similitude, Azati Prime-Zero Hour minus E2.

And the Vulcan trilogy as I've said is outstanding. After The Best of Both Worlds I/II/Family it is tied with DS9's Circle trilogy in my rankings.

I loved the political intrigue, conspiracies, the two-pronged tactic of having the crew investigate the bombing as Archer/T'Pol made their way through the desert. I know we saw the Vulcans several times over the years especially on TOS but they never were as interesting and well-fleshed as a rich culture than here as we got to see their homeworld with its blinding sun/intense heat/electromagnetic fields, their architecture, the inner workings of their government, the spiritual/mystical side via the Syrannites. In fact one thing ENT did quite well was world-building. We learned of their difficult journey, met Surak in two beautifully done visions, and saw the Romulans and Andorians be brought into the thick of things in a very smart way opening things up more by including more and more players.

Archer and T'Pol had some nice moments and T'Les' death was heart-wrenching. "The Forge" itself is my favorite ENT episode with "Twilight" coming in behind it.

As for BoBW, I agree. It was superb. In fact, IMO it would have made an excellent theatrical film (imagine seeing the fleet in ruins on the big screen!) -- certainly better than any of the TNG films we actually got, save "First Contact."

Oh it would have better than First Contact too! I have always found FC overrated. In every measurable way except production BoBW was superior to it. The Borg on the BoBW weren't portrayed as mindless henchmen being controlled by an emotional villianess who was scorned by Locutus' rebuke. I like Alice Krige but Stewart's chilling performance as Locutus was the epitome of the Borg ideal. No one before or after including Jeri Ryan as Seven was able to play a Borg like that.

I never cared for the Insta-Assimilation either introduced in FC nor did I like the way the extras playing the Borg acted like zombies coming after you. Compare that to the stand-ins seen in BoBW. They even looked androgynous or as close as you could realistically come.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Azati Prime/Damage (as others have mentioned) easily matches and actually surpasses BoBW in the "compelling" department

Michael Piller conceived a perfect episode including all the elements any fan would want out of a doomsday event. The AP cliffhanger while great can't beat the shock of Locutus and Riker ordering Worf to fire. We pretty much knew how AP would play out with the Xindi halting their attack. What impresses me is the fact Michael Piller wrote Part II months later with very little idea how he was going to wrap up Part I yet you couldn’t tell that.

I'll put the sight of Starfleet's flagship listing bow over nacelles (backward), smoke pouring out of her, gaping holes in the hull out of which fly doomed crewmembers, all while her captain is paralyzed in a personal battle with her own out of control emotions, up against the BoBW ending any day.

You might put it up against BoBW's classic ending but for me and I suspect a great many it would lose. By the time AP came along battle sequences and ship damage is a dime a dozen. Granted there is varying quality among them with AP ranking up there but I don't see how it could compete with the stunning reveal of Picard Borgified and Riker ordering the destruction of the cube with his captain onboard. In fact, that might be an interesting Poll you could do in General Trek to see what the concensus is among the Trek fans on the board.

And anyone who didn't know the 1701-D crew would eventually free Picard from the Borg had to have been a novice Trek watcher.

Really the way I remembered it was that there were indications Stewart might leave the show and Piller later confirmed had he have left Picard would have either died or went away with the Borg in some manner. So I would argue, novice or not, no one knew exactly how it was to play out. That was part of the fun and frustration of the cliffhanger and the maddeningly long summer of '90. Even the production crew tried to keep the script from getting out and had pages colored or number to assist in that.

Of course we all knew that eventually the crew would defeat the Xindi, but that knowledge didn't stop us from enjoying the ride.

I agree. In fact, I thought the writers did an outstanding job in making the arc surprisingly thrilling and imparted quite a bit of suspense despite knowing the outcome. But that still doesn't change the fact that BoBW was more of an unknown as far as how they would get out of this or at what cost a victory would come. Heck, even Piller admitted he didn't know how it would be resolved until he sat down to write it out. So saying we knew Picard would be freed is a little disingenuous.

In fact, up until the very end the possibility existed he could have died when the cube blew up.

Also, part II of BoBW was not nearly as good as part I

I disagree. But to each their own. They are both 4-star episodes in my eyes.

while ENT's part II (Damage) was even better than it's part I (AP).

I thought AP/Damage were about the same in terms of quality which was quite high. I'd give the two hours a 3.5/4 star rating while BoBW would get 4/4.

What I don't concede is that this aspect alone lifts BoBW above AP/Damage. BoBW part II was pretty much a slightly above average TNG episode.

Our mileage varies then. And I wasn't holding up that aspect alone as lifting BoBW above AP/Damage. I think I explained in rather detailed terms the numerous elements I felt elevated BoBW over AP/Damage and tried to contrast the two two-parters.

I think AP/Damage won't hold the place, not only within the Trek fanbase, but pop culture the way BoBW has.

 

[JiNX-01]

^^you certainly present an informed and well rounded argument. I wish I was able to match it admirably. I don't agree with you on several points, but would never be able to state it so elegantly.

Thank you I appreciate the kind words.

I was simply making the point that Enterprise is NOT a poor imitation of Star Trek.

I know many feel it was a poor imitation I however am not one of those. ENT had its problems and it is far from my favorite series but it shouldn't be dismissed. It did produce quite a few entertaining and sometimes even great stories that are as good as the best of Trek. I just happen to personally feel that BoBW is on a plane of excellence that really can't be touched. I can;t ever remember so riveted to the screen and I watch a lot of tv, both sci-fi and non sci-fi. There were most certainly episodes of Trek especially from DS9 during the War or ENT during the Xindi crisis that are most certainly compelling and epic but for me they never engaged me as viscerally and intellectually as BoBW. That was really an instance of genuis by the late Michael Piller being able to hit all the right notes--depicting a near-apocalyptic scenario, balancing so expertly plot and character all on a tv budget to where a two-parter is so universally remembered, universally loved and held up after nearly two decades.

It really had impact in so many ways from the constant use of the phrase "Resistance is futile" in popular culture, the season-ending cliffhanger most tv shows employ, the Borg, letting TNG step out from the shadows of TOS once and for all.

There are plenty of episodes -- and IMO, a larger percentage of them -- that had equal, if not superior storytelling, performances and production values than the highly praised TNG.

Well of course TNG can't compete with ENT as far as production values. As for acting chops I have to say that Patrick Stewart, Brent Spiner and LeVar Burton just outshine the entire ENT cast. There really wasn't a breakout character like Data or Worf on ENT.

Actually, as much as I liked Data and Worf, looking back, I have to say they were largely one-note characters.

As for BoBW, I agree. It was superb. In fact, IMO it would have made an excellent theatrical film (imagine seeing the fleet in ruins on the big screen!) -- certainly better than any of the TNG films we actually got, save "First Contact."

Oh it would have better than First Contact too!

No disagreement here. My point was that it was the only TNG movie I consider to be worth watching.

 

[gblews]

Really the way I remembered it was that there were indications Stewart might leave the show and Piller later confirmed had he have left Picard would have either died or went away with the Borg in some manner. So I would argue, novice or not, no one knew exactly how it was to play out. That was part of the fun and frustration of the cliffhanger and the maddeningly long summer of '90. Even the production crew tried to keep the script from getting out and had pages colored or number to assist in that.

At the time I saw the episode, first run syndication, I had no knowledge of Stewart's contract questions, so to me the ending, though shocking and compelling, just left me wondering just how the crew would get the captain out of danger this time, as opposed to thinking that Jean-Luc might actually "buy it" this time. The situation really was another captain-gets-kidnapped-and-is-in-peril, type situation -- one we'd seen many times in Trek and would see many more.

I think AP/Damage won't hold the place, not only within the Trek fanbase, but pop culture the way BoBW has.

My "shelf life" comment was in reference to the entire series and not just to BoBW. We shall see.

 

[startrekwatcher]

At the time I saw the episode, first run syndication, I had no knowledge of Stewart's contract questions, so to me the ending, though shocking and compelling, just left me wondering just how the crew would get the captain out of danger this time.

I saw the episode too in first run syndication back in June 1990 and while at the time I watched the episode I hadn't been aware of his contract disputes, which I learned of later in the summer, I truly bought into the possibility that Picard's fate was up in the air. Maybe I was just more naive in buying into the jeopardy of the situation than you but I wasn't sure if he would die on the cube or if he was rescued that he could even be restored giving how at that time assimilation seemed permanent.

I think AP/Damage won't hold the place, not only within the Trek fanbase, but pop culture the way BoBW has.

My "shelf life" comment was in reference to the entire series and not just to BoBW. We shall see.

[/quote]
Oh well it sounded in one of your responses that you felt BoBW II was only slightly better than an average TNG episode. I was pointing out that most don't feel that way about Part II.

As for the "shelf life" I think ENT will hold up better than its detractors would like. The Xindi-relevant episodes of season three especially the final six episodes minus E2 were epic enough that I think they'll hold up well in the longterm as well as most of the season four episodes if for no other reason than the way they tie into the larger Trek universe and adds so much rich background to the Trek saga with the Vulcan trilogy, the Andorian arc, the MU two-parter, Affliction. Afterall even if you didn't like the ENT crew you could still enjoy these episodes because they were more about the story and Trek elements that fans find compelling or interesting.

As for TNG's "shelf life" I think it has held up remarkably well twenty years after its premiere. No doubt there were some weak episodes that might not have aged as well but I think there are enough of the good ones that still can be fun for new viewers and fun for old viewers who would like to see them again. I think TNG did quite well in terms of ratings when it was on Spike and they constantly ran three episodes a day as opposed to DS9 once a day and usually in the wee hours of the morning.

 

[gblews]

I saw the episode too in first run syndication back in June 1990 and while at the time I watched the episode I hadn't been aware of his contract disputes, which I learned of later in the summer, I truly bought into the possibility that Picard's fate was up in the air. Maybe I was just more naive in buying into the jeopardy of the situation than you but I wasn't sure if he would die on the cube or if he was rescued that he could even be restored giving how at that time assimilation seemed permanent.
Oh well it sounded in one of your responses that you felt BoBW II was only slightly better than an average TNG episode. I was pointing out that most don't feel that way about Part II.

I did write that about BoBW II. We'll have to agree to disagree about our perceptions of how fans feel about pt II.

As for the "shelf life" I think ENT will hold up better than its detractors would like. The Xindi-relevant episodes of season three especially the final six episodes minus E2 were epic enough that I think they'll hold up well in the longterm as well as most of the season four episodes if for no other reason than the way they tie into the larger Trek universe and adds so much rich background to the Trek saga with the Vulcan trilogy, the Andorian arc, the MU two-parter, Affliction. Afterall even if you didn't like the ENT crew you could still enjoy these episodes because they were more about the story and Trek elements that fans find compelling or interesting.

To me, TNG seemed to always go for profundity which sometimes worked well, especially back in the over the top 80's. But this is the reason I find the episodes so difficult to watch now; they seem so preachy. It seemed that for the TNG producers, IDIC wasn't enough of a concession to PC, so they came up with the Prime Directive, which was pushed into the ground.

I think TNG did quite well in terms of ratings when it was on Spike and they constantly ran three episodes a day as opposed to DS9 once a day and usually in the wee hours of the morning.

That TNG was a ratings hog is not in question, its how the spinoffs will be perceived by the fans as the years pass that I believe is in question. I could turn out to be wrong, but I think the respect and caring for ENT by fans will increase, while TNG's flaws will become more and more prominent.

I think that ENT has already received much more respectful treatment on Sci-Fi than all the series have on Spike. So maybe we're seeing the beginnings of a changing of the guard already.

 

[startrekwatcher]

To me, TNG seemed to always go for profundity which sometimes worked well, especially back in the over the top 80's. But this is the reason I find the episodes so difficult to watch now; they seem so preachy.

I'll just come out and say it--TNG is my favorite Trek series so of course I don't see it the way you do.

I know many feel a series can't be good without arcs--I happen to disagree. I love serialized storylines and I always have from certain daytime soap operas to nighttime dramas to current shows that take serialization to a whole another level like Lost and Heroes. But TNG is nice to watch because you get an entertaining hour that is self-contained.

Yes TNG did try to be reflective and have some depth but that was the show it was. I suppose it could put some people off but for those that watched TNG that was what they were looking for. And I respect that it had Something to say or at least make the attempt to do so. But I would also point out it wasn't a steady diet of that sort of thing.

I thought it was a solid series that came up with a nice mix of different types of stories. You had the high concept sci-fi mysteries, the character dramas, the political intrigue stories like The Enemy/The Defector etc, the allegories, a few fluff pieces and some action adventure here and there and the occasional Event[TM] episodes like The Best of Both Worlds, Unification.

So it wasn't all cerebral. There were plenty of just plain fun, turn your brain off stuff like Cause and Effect, Parallels, Genesis, Power Play, Disaster, The Game, Clues, Night Terrors, Future Imperfect, Remember Me, Conundrum, Schisms, Contagion, Where No One Has Gone Before, Rascals, Ship in a Bottle, The Next Phase, Times Arrow, Peak Performance to name a few. I would certainly argue these will fare better than Canamar, Dawn, Vanishing Point, The Crossing, Extinction, Oasis, Acquisition, Terra Nova etc.

It seemed that for the TNG producers, IDIC wasn't enough of a concession to PC, so they came up with the Prime Directive, which was pushed into the ground.

I thought TOS came up with the Prime Directive. TNG really didn't use the PD all that much. Out of 178 or 179 episodes IIRC only a handful even touched on it.

I could turn out to be wrong, but I think the respect and caring for ENT by fans will increase, while TNG's flaws will become more and more prominent.

Maybe so. I just think TNG's faults are nowhere near as bad as ENT's.

I think that ENT has already received much more respectful treatment on Sci-Fi than all the series have on Spike.

Really? I think showing TNG three times a day five days a week is preferable to four episodes once a week. And when TNG first premiered they held an all week marathon from morning until late at night with tons of promos and they had Friday night two hour blocks as well. And this was a series that had been in heavy rotation in syndication for years before Spike.

But I don't want it to sound like I think ENT is garbage. As I said I enjoyed it quite a bit just not as much as TNG or DS9 or TOS.

 

[Anna Yolei]

I always thought BOBW was pretty overhyped. Then again, I wasn't in the fandom at the time, and I'm sure a lot of the hype came the the fact that no one was certain that Patrick Stewart would re-sign for the following year. Or so I've gathered.

I'd say the Vulcan arc is on par with BOBW simply because I don't think the latter ZOMG wonderful. It has it good parts, but there are so many better episodes.

 

[Flibble]

I'm a huge Enterprise fan, but Best of Both Worlds is still one of the great Star Trek two parters ever.

 

[Trekwatcher]

I'm a huge Enterprise fan, but Best of Both Worlds is still one of the great Star Trek two parters ever.

Absolutely. BOBW was great, and probably the best trek cliffhanger ever. I just like to point out now and again that ENT had more than it's fair share of great moments, despite what it's detractors will tell you.

 

[MrPointy]

The Vulcan arc in ENT S4 was probably the best thing about that season. But it doesn't hold a candle to BOBW, ITPM or even the final part of the Xindi arc.

Seriously, Archer finds the Kir'Shara in 2 fucking minutes and the ending is wrapped up far too neatly to be believable for my tastes. Everything else about it was gold. The eps built up Vulcan as a living, breathing world with an interesting culture, something I had seen in Trek for a while. Actually, I'd say that the Vulcan arc reminds me a lot of the Maquis 3-parter in S2 of DS9.

 

[Who_Trek]

I wasn't as impressed with Mirror Darkly and the Spinner stuff - I mean they were good, but they weren't ... epic in the way the Vulcan trilogy was. Maybe its just me?

 

[startrekwatcher]

The Vulcan Trilogy was pretty entertaining, though not on the level of the Spiner Trilogy or the "Mirror Darkly" two-parter, let alone the episodes you refer to.

I wasn't as impressed with Mirror Darkly and the Spinner stuff - I mean they were good, but they weren't ... epic in the way the Vulcan trilogy was. Maybe its just me?

Yeah I really don't think IaMD was as substantive or solid as the Vulcan trilogy. IaMD was fun and inventive but it wasn't as filling.

 

[Smiley]

I have yet to make my list of how the episodes from the entire franchise stack up against each other. I will say that both BoBW and the Vulcan trilogy are in the Excellent category (the highest), and I consider the Vulcan trilogy the best story told by Enterprise.

 

[Trekwatcher]

You know, I just finished re-watching this trilogy this morning, and it really is ENT at the top of it's game. T'Pol is just fantastic in the last episode, and Soval, Trip, and Archer all get some great moments. The finale with Koss is well done and very satisfying. I still prefer IAMD as the best thing in S4, but this trilogy is really some of their best work overall.

As with much of ENT, I really enjoyed it more on subsequent viewings than I did originally.

 

[JiNX-01]

You know, I just finished re-watching this trilogy this morning, and it really is ENT at the top of it's game. T'Pol is just fantastic in the last episode, and Soval, Trip, and Archer all get some great moments. The finale with Koss is well done and very satisfying. I still prefer IAMD as the best thing in S4, but this trilogy is really some of their best work overall.

As with much of ENT, I really enjoyed it more on subsequent viewings than I did originally.

Which supports the contention of many ENT fans -- including me -- that this show will have a long shelf life.

 

[commodore64]

The Forge was the best of the best. The rest of the Vulcan trilogy was very good. I was a bit disappointed with Kir'Shara, but it's always hard wrapping up the end.

 

[Triskelion]

You know, I just finished re-watching this trilogy this morning, and it really is ENT at the top of it's game. T'Pol is just fantastic in the last episode, and Soval, Trip, and Archer all get some great moments. The finale with Koss is well done and very satisfying. I still prefer IAMD as the best thing in S4, but this trilogy is really some of their best work overall.

As with much of ENT, I really enjoyed it more on subsequent viewings than I did originally.

What he said.