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Cloaking Technology Questions

CuttingEdge100

Commodore
Commodore
I got a bunch of questions regarding the cloaking device in Star Trek


1.) In "Balance of Terror" (I think that's the one where the BoP first appears), it would seem as if the ship could barely even see through it's own cloaking device... By "The Enterprise Incident", it would seem that they didn't have so much trouble "seeing" through their cloaking devices...

What changed?


2.) In "Balance of Terror" the Romulans (or Klingons) while cloaked would by necessity need to have a workable Navigational deflector as any collision with even a tiny object could result in massive damage or even destruction of the ship.

How come the nav-deflector couldn't be detected by the Enterprise


3.) Why couldn't the Romulans and Klingons fire while cloaked?

Even if just a torpedo -- which at least by Star Trek III was established to be a solid mass. You'd just be shooting it out of a tube... it's self propelled otherwise and if you can determine distance to target, the torpedo should be able to be locked onto target...


4.) In "The Enterprise Incident" the USS Enterprise after stealing the Cloaking Device (which in itself is kind of ludicrous) were able to race away at Warp 9 while cloaked. How come the Romulans couldn't detect their warp-fields?


CuttingEdge100
 
The cloak in BOT seems to have been an experimental unit, as the Romulan ship could still be tracked on sensors while cloaked. By "Enterprise Incident" the Romulans had found a way to improve the cloak significantly, which is why the Enterprise was sent to steal it.

In terms of weapons and shields, it's been implied that the cloak is somewhat power intensive because it has to disguise such a large mass. Therefore, you can't easily achieve the balance of power you need to stay cloaked and use the offensive and defenses at the same time. "Face of the Enemy" established that Romulan cloaks, which presumably are among the most advanced, require a very strict balance of power to completely hide the ship; any small variations can make the Romulans detectable to an enemy.
 
On that note I'd like to bring up another question:

Why was the BoP in TUC able to fire while cloaked while no others before or since have been able to? Of course the real explanation is that it was a plot device, but how can we explain this in the context of the show? We do know that this BoP was a prototype so that goes some distance in explaining why the technology wasn't seen again, but does anybody have any thoughts on how they were able to pull it off to begin with?
 
I got a bunch of questions regarding the cloaking device in Star Trek

1.) In "Balance of Terror" (I think that's the one where the BoP first appears), it would seem as if the ship could barely even see through it's own cloaking device... By "The Enterprise Incident", it would seem that they didn't have so much trouble "seeing" through their cloaking devices...

What changed?

Maybe those Klingon ships the Romulans came into had some nifty new sensors on them, or maybe the cloaking device was on a different and more intense setting in "Balance of Terror," or perhaps conditions in the different region of space made things easier to detect in the latter episode.

2.) In "Balance of Terror" the Romulans (or Klingons) while cloaked would by necessity need to have a workable Navigational deflector as any collision with even a tiny object could result in massive damage or even destruction of the ship.

How come the nav-deflector couldn't be detected by the Enterprise

Well, there isn't usually a whole lot to deflect in interstellar space, and pushing a spare bit of hydrogen around or something would not necessarily be the easiest thing to detect. But inside a solar system, I imagine they do go very slowly to avoid detection. However, the cloaking device is obviously diverting whatever encounters the field around the ship somehow, so I wonder if it doesn't handle this function itself in some equivalent fashion.

3.) Why couldn't the Romulans and Klingons fire while cloaked?

Even if just a torpedo -- which at least by Star Trek III was established to be a solid mass. You'd just be shooting it out of a tube... it's self propelled otherwise and if you can determine distance to target, the torpedo should be able to be locked onto target...

You could obviously always shove a torpedo out of the field, but you'd compromise the field and the enemy would know you were about to fire--or, worse, be able to target you and attack first, which would be a serious problem if full defenses could not be used under cloak. So, what the Klingons must have been working on was some improvement to cloaking technology that only allowed the launch to be detected as late as the torpedo was underway and eliminated any "open window" effects. The Enterprise demonstrated that new research equipment was so sensitive that they had to go back to the drawing board on however they were concealing emissions from impulse drive, and that was the end of that experimentally equipped BOP--and quite possibly the guys who designed it.

4.) In "The Enterprise Incident" the USS Enterprise after stealing the Cloaking Device (which in itself is kind of ludicrous) were able to race away at Warp 9 while cloaked. How come the Romulans couldn't detect their warp-fields?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but...because they were cloaked? Well, another answer is, at warp factor 9 they were pretty much gone at that point anyway. I don't think any of their weapons could have overtaken the Enterprise at that point, and it isn't like the course the Enterprise would have followed to escape was much of a secret anyway. The point of the cloak was to stop the Enterprise from being blasted by all the Romulan ships before it could get clear to go to warp and flee.

Just some ideas.
 
I think the explaination given was that the BOP cloak was "Really advanced tech" to allow it to work that way. I believe it was a prototype. That way when they blew it up at the end they could consider such a heinous device gone...Cause it was the only one like that.:klingon:
 
On that note I'd like to bring up another question:

Why was the BoP in TUC able to fire while cloaked while no others before or since have been able to? Of course the real explanation is that it was a plot device, but how can we explain this in the context of the show? We do know that this BoP was a prototype so that goes some distance in explaining why the technology wasn't seen again, but does anybody have any thoughts on how they were able to pull it off to begin with?

The impression I got, based on comments like Uhura's suggestion of tracking the BOP's engines emissions, is that the Klingons sacrificed some of the cloak's stability to be able to fire while cloaked. So they accomplished that, but the ship was more vulnerable to detection than it would normally be. Much as the Romulan ship in BOT was. Hence why this particular advance wasn't pursued afterward, because the ability to fire under cloak negated its stealth value.
 
The problem of cloaking devices is this:
They eat up energy,and can't mask everything.And they're little good in a fight.

For example,you can mask a ship,but as the bad guys in Undiscovered Country found out an invisible ship is little good if it leaves a trail.

Now,to be an effective cloak you have to mask EVERYTHING!
Not just the phyisical ship,but the lifesigns ,radiation from the reactor(s) and propulsion radiation.

Picture hiding 3 Mile Island visibly and radiation wise and you're close to the challenge at hand.

AND you must not emit so little energy that an enemy can do a passive scan and shoot at the suspicously background radiation free area behind the ship.

Here's why they're not all that in battle;
Now,let's say you have a cloaked ship like the aforementioned BoP.

You have an enemy ship in your gunsight,but you can't just go blasting.

To shoot and remain unseen you must fire,then MOVE lest a sharp enemy tactical officer fire on the source of the energy weapon.

This means you can't use disruptors,as you have to be closer to the target to fire ,and exposes your BoP to random fire from the target.

So you'd be forced to shoot a torpedo,then juke to avoid return fire,the shoot again.

Keep in mind to win against a visible(but shielded) enemy all of your shots must do critical damage,or else the target can either run,or call for backup.

And if your target brings a friend you will now need to defeat two ships with this dance-and whichever ship isn't under attack can concentrate on finding and blowing you away .

Or you can just decloak ,raise shields and get it over with before help arrives,and use the cloack to cover a hasty retreat from the scene.:)
 
What changed?
The cloaking device changed. They developed a new one--which, if you remember, is exactly why Enterprise crossed the neutral zone in the first place.

How come the nav-deflector couldn't be detected by the Enterprise
It could. Apparently Spock was still able to track the ship somehow, but couldn't get a fix on its position. Presumably he was tracking the gravitational distortion from its warp field or the exhaust from its engines, but he might have been tracking the displacement of the interstellar medium as the nav-deflector swept it aside. Any of these things would give away the presence of the Romulan ship but wouldn't be enough to get a firing solution.

Why couldn't the Romulans and Klingons fire while cloaked?
In Balance of Terror, it was because their main weapon was a one-shot-kill that took all their power to fire it. The cloaking device also took all their power and so did their drive system. So the Romulan bird of prey could divert full warp power either to the cloaking device (thereby becoming invisible) or to the weapons (thereby crushing the enemy with a single shot) or to the engines (thereby becoming freakishly maneuverable).

After Balance of Terror, the "can't fire while cloaked" rule was basically grandfathered in once writers remembered the rule but had forgotten WHY the rule existed in the first place. In Star Trek-III it is assumed the Bird of Prey used by Kruge was basically a Romulan design with the same power management scheme; presumably it would have been able to fire its smaller disruptors while cloaked, but the Bird of Prey is an ambush predator, not the kind of thing that's meant to hang in a firefight, so those smaller disruptors would be analogous to the deck guns on a U-boat (you can use them to shoot up some small targets, but torpedoes are the main weapons anyway). Kruge's ship was probably armed with the same one-shot-kill super powered plasma torpedo as the one in Balance of Terror, consuming so much energy that the ship couldn't even CHARGE the weapon without giving itself away, let alone fire it.

By TUC we have a klingon bird of prey firing photon torpedoes instead of the big one-shot kill: the ambush predator becomes a sniper. This should have been the end of the "can't fire while cloaked" business except that the Klingons apparently suck at guerilla warfare or otherwise don't have the stomach for it, so they beefed up their bird of prey designs to use them as highly nimble, heavily shielded gun platforms instead.

As for why the Romulans still can't fire while cloaked... well, one assumes that the both the Klingons and the Romulans both have a preference for using the disruptor-type weapons which are somehow incompatible with cloaking technology to begin with. In which case, by Nemesis, the new Preator figures out that if you just design a ship with a more Starfleet-like specifications you could shield it and fire torpedoes from it while still keeping it cloaked.

Of course, the lingering "fire while cloaked" issue requires alot of workarounds that I prefer to ignore anyway and just assume that, yes, you CAN fire while cloaked, just that firing while cloaked doesn't get you anywhere unless you kill the guy with the first shot or are clever enough to bob-and-weave in the dark. Considering cloaked ships were supposed to be the space-opera equivalent of a submarine, it makes no sense to make them unarmed while "submerged." Submarines, after all, don't have to surface before they can fire torpedoes, but they DO have to get the hell out of dodge in a hurry once they've fired since, let's face it, the moment you let those fish off the chain everyone with a pair of ears is gonna know where you are. Even worse, actually, if you're a modern submarine firing Exocets and your missiles suddenly jump out of the water and home in on a target; as soon as you fire, three or four ASROCs will be headed right back at you.

In "The Enterprise Incident" the USS Enterprise after stealing the Cloaking Device (which in itself is kind of ludicrous) were able to race away at Warp 9 while cloaked. How come the Romulans couldn't detect their warp-fields?
Same reason as your first question. The new cloaking device was designed to make it harder for enemy sensors to track them. Kirk basically asked Spock this very same question at the beginning of the episode (though without the technobabble reference to "warp fields" he instead asks why their "tracking sensors" didn't detect them).
 
But the "power-consuming cloak" theory doesn't seem to be much supported by the TOS episodes, let alone the 24th century instances where cloaks basically run on two AA batteries and can be stored in a suitably large pocket.

Sure, the prototype ship in "BoT" always seemed to be on the verge of running out of fuel. But this could be simply because she had small tanks. There is no explicit limitation to what systems she could run at the same time - warp, weapon, shielding, cloak, comms, running lights.

I'd thus still mainly concentrate on the issue that firing reveals the attacker's position, and the shot may take a bit of setting up or recovering from. It thus doesn't pay to fire unless you are sure you can do it safely, in which case there's no point in remaining cloaked and thus perhaps hampering your firing-related sensors.

No doubt different cloaks in the hands of different operators have different efficacies. Probably you risk detection if you pre-warm your weapons under cloak, or raise your shields under cloak, or fly at high speed under cloak, or scan carefully from under cloak - but doing so may sometimes give you a tactical advantage. It might not require special technology to fire when cloaked; it might only require special tactics, or special daring.

That our heroes in ST6 think that firing from under cloak is such an amazing thing is left poorly explained. After all, Chang's ship does become partially visible when firing, thereby risking failure of the plan wherein no recordings would show the presence of a third vessel at the assassination of Gorkon. But if we assume that this sort of partial cloaking while firing is enough to hide the presence of the second shooter on the grassy knoll, then our heroes have the full right to (incorrectly) refer to this technique as "firing when cloaked".

In the end, I'd suggest that the preparation for firing is usually too "energetic" to be fully hidden by even a high quality cloak, which is why most cloakship captains don't bother to stay cloaked after they heat up their guns. Chang just had a very "silent" gun and used it in a very careful yet daring manner in order to keep it hidden behind the best Klingon cloak of the era. It wasn't a single technological breakthrough, it was a combination of issues that worked at that particular time but probably wasn't doable at other times, with other devices and counterdevices, against more seasoned adversaries.

Timo Saloniemi
 
But the "power-consuming cloak" theory doesn't seem to be much supported by the TOS episodes, let alone the 24th century instances where cloaks basically run on two AA batteries and can be stored in a suitably large pocket.
By which time power is clearly no longer a variable since the Romulans "may have solved that problem" to quote a certain Vulcan scientist. Power is clearly not a factor as early as TSFS, so that leaves us with other reasons, namely that a less power-intensive cloak leaves room for a more power-intensive primary weapon.

Sure, the prototype ship in "BoT" always seemed to be on the verge of running out of fuel. But this could be simply because she had small tanks. There is no explicit limitation to what systems she could run at the same time - warp, weapon, shielding, cloak, comms, running lights.
And perhaps Uhura's tampons are powered by antimatter... I'm not much for speculation unless there's a REASON for it. What is the REASON to assume the technical limitations of the Romulan ship were any different from what they seemed to be?

OTOH, we're forced to speculate as to how the Romulan plasma torpedo was able to follow the Enterprise even while at warp. I would assume that disruptor weapons in general involve balls of high energy plasma discharged from a weapon emitter and launched at a target on a deflector beam or something to that effect; Klingon and Romulan ships would be able to guide the discharge by adjusting the deflector beam, sort of like a helicopter or a tank firing a TOW missile or a submarine firing a wire-guided torpedo. That alone would explain the power deficit since this type of weapon would probably require channeling full warp power to the weapon systems to move a plasma projectile that distance at that speed (and with enough destructive power to pulverize a small moon.

I'd thus still mainly concentrate on the issue that firing reveals the attacker's position, and the shot may take a bit of setting up or recovering from. It thus doesn't pay to fire unless you are sure you can do it safely, in which case there's no point in remaining cloaked and thus perhaps hampering your firing-related sensors.
If you can get within a few hundred kilometers of a starship in low orbit of a planet somewhere, sensors are the least of your problems: you're not going to miss at that range. The thing is, if your first shot is going to hit, then you'd better be sure it's going to COUNT, and that a) precludes using smaller weapons like the wingtip disruptors while cloaked and b) precludes using an unreasonably huge weapon that almost shuts down your entire ship every time you use it. I would assume that photon torpedoes can't get that powerful and neither can phasers, so that only leaves disruptors, which seem to be incredibly energy intensive super-large highly specialized weapons (unlike Starfleet weapons which are more generalist).

If power is no longer a variable (for Klingons and Romulans it still may be) then the fact that heavier disruptors require that guiding deflector beam would render disruptors unusable--or at least un-guidable--while the ship is still cloaked.

It might not require special technology to fire when cloaked; it might only require special tactics, or special daring.
I don't think it requires special tactics, just an operational doctrine that encourages it. I reference again the difference between, say, an infantry rifleman and a special forces sniper. The rifleman wears camouflage to avoid detection, but he's also carrying an assault rifle, a sidearm, some grenades, field knife and body armor. The sniper sneaks around in this ridiculous looking ghillie suit and travels light; he carries one hell of a powerful rifle, a field knife, and a pair of binoculars.

Even infantry snipers will have equipment more consistent with the fact that they are infantry; a guerilla or an assassin or an insurgent will be traveling much lighter and probably carrying either a smaller more concealable weapon or a bigger one with more stopping power.

Chang's bird of prey can be interpreted in this light as a guy in a ghillie suit with a Colt .45. With an RPG he probably could have punched through Enterprise' shield and destroyed it completely, but that RPG is big and noisy and hard to conceal even with a ghillie suit and Enterprise would have shot him right back.

In the end, I'd suggest that the preparation for firing is usually too "energetic" to be fully hidden by even a high quality cloak, which is why most cloakship captains don't bother to stay cloaked after they heat up their guns. Chang just had a very "silent" gun and used it in a very careful yet daring manner in order to keep it hidden behind the best Klingon cloak of the era.
Nah. Chang had standard photon torpedoes courtesy of his counterparts in Starfleet, a substitute for the Bird or Prey's NORMAL weapon system. I imagine both he and some of his crew were starting to get kind of annoyed near the end that they keep shooting torpedoes into the Enterprise and the ship seemed to shrug them off and keep jinking around. If Chang had been using the standard Uber-disruptor/plasma torpedo he could have destroyed Enterprise with one, possibly two shots, but charging up that weapon in and of itself would have given away his position and he might have met the same fate as Kruge did: two torpedoes right down the throat.

So Klingons don't do sniper missions anymore, because Starfleet is just a little too quick on the draw. Instead they just beef their ships up with crazy levels of armor and pound their enemies to death, face to face. The Vorcha class can be seen as the ultimate expression of this with its big forward Macross Cannon disruptor thing.
 
We have seen though that starships have to balance their power, at least in a potentially hostile situation. That's why if a ship like the Defiant or the Enterprise suffers damage to its warp core, a range of systems are affected because the core is what pumps the power to those systems. It's also why you can get around that sometimes by dumping power from one system to another.

So it seems likely from those cases, as well as logical, that a capital ship's systems would be interdependent to some degree. And it would make sense from that perspective that a system like a full cloak would be more energy intensive than the other common systems. Otherwise, what's to stop the Romulans or Klingons from developing a perfect cloak that gives them a huge edge tactically?
 
Ah but a cloak is not the be/end all of tactical tech.

Using Nemesis as an example,you have the Schimitar which can fire,manouver,and remain sheilded while under cloak.

And his ship still gets badly damaged.Why?

Despite the cloak any disruptor fire or shield impact disrupts the field and gives away the ships position,negating the purpose of being cloaked while shooting.

Its like being a sniper with a gatling gun.

Your camo will conceal you until you squeeze the trigger,in which case your target can simply look where a giant muzzle flash is and shoot back in that direction.

Notice in Undiscovered Country the gas-enhanced torpedo didn't destroy the BoP.

The combined barrage from Excelsior and Enterprise on the location of the enhanced torpedos impact is what did that ship in.
 
not to detract from your point, which is a good one, but that gas-homing torpedo looked pretty lethal to me...the subsequent torpedoes from the Enterprise and the Excelsior seem like over zealous over kill
 
not to detract from your point, which is a good one, but that gas-homing torpedo looked pretty lethal to me...the subsequent torpedoes from the Enterprise and the Excelsior seem like over zealous over kill

Only because that first shot apparently destroyed the bridge, and Chang was a little too surprised to avoid it anyway. If that torpedo had bounced off the hull like, say, Enterprise's second shot (after the ship became visible) the Bird of Prey probably would have decloaked and raised shields for a prolonged but inevitable fight to the death.
 
Ah but a cloak is not the be/end all of tactical tech.

Using Nemesis as an example,you have the Schimitar which can fire,manouver,and remain sheilded while under cloak.

And his ship still gets badly damaged.Why?

Despite the cloak any disruptor fire or shield impact disrupts the field and gives away the ships position,negating the purpose of being cloaked while shooting.
Actually, the ship got badly damaged because a pissed-off betazed counselor telepathically tracked down the Reman viceroy who telepathically raped her earlier in the flick and shot off a spread of quantum torpedoes directly at his head. These disabled the cloak, but the shields remained up for the duration of the fight (if Geordi's sensors are correct). Scimitar was damaged more by being rammed than by any of Enterprise' weapons.
 
Could use of warp at sublight levels be used while cloaked to avoid the noticeably detectable exhaust trail that impulse engines produce?'


BTW: Is there any way to cloak the warp field or at least produce another warp-field such so that from a certain distance from the ship, the two phase each other out (at a set of distances which might need to be varied.)? -- it couldn't be completely phased-out at all distances otherwise the device couldn't push the ship but could maintain a cloak of the propulsive field from quite a short distance (damn near on top of the ship to close range depending on speed and field strength).
 
We don't really know that an impulse engine would leave a "trail". It creates intermittent emissions, but not necessarily constant ones - and indeed "intermittent" is how Spock describes his observations of the impulse maneuvers of the Romulans in "Balance of Terror" or Khan in ST2:TWoK.

OTOH, we hear several times in dialogue that warp travel does leave a "trail". Sometimes it is very obvious, as with the titular adversaries in TAS "Pirates of Orion", but even perfectly ordinary ships, or ships of high military standard, seem to leave trails in TNG and DS9.

Do we ever hear of a cloaked ship leaving a warp trail? Perhaps a cloak is capable of "scooping up" the tailings of the ship, no matter what travel mode, but it doesn't do that with 100% efficiency - perhaps it needs to belch out the garbage every now and then. At warp speed, across dozens of lighthours, the belches would be of little concern. At impulse, at close quarters, they would doom the target ship if the heroes fired a homing torpedo...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Timo...

The Warp Trail thing was largely added in TNG. In TOS warp wasn't clearly explained.

During the development of TMP however a lot of research was put into it and they came up with an explanation which was very similar to Alcubierre's concept which technically would work if the energy levels could be met.

According to Alcubierre's theory any messing up of the fabric of space is undone behind the ship. The space is compressed in front, and stretched in the back. What is done in the front is undone in the back of the ship.


CuttingEdge100
 
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