Anybody Ever Notice...?

[QuasarVM]

In Star Trek V when the Enterprise fires a photon torpedo at the "God thing" it doesn't make a photon torpedo sound but the sound of the weapons station phaser button being pushed from TOS?

I thought that was stoopid.

Anyone else?

The entire Associates & (Bran) Ferren effects fiasco on TFF just stinks. I'm sure he did the best he could...but dudes who run small effects houses and normally do little more than TV commercial work should not be doing f/x for multimillion-dollar franchise films. Especially in the era before CGI hit big. Effects like the aforementioned torpedo sound and look are all the more reason why TFF needs a CGI Remastering.

I hope the JJs film is a huge success. Maybe then, Paramount will finally allow Shatner to go back and remaster his film with new effects and a finale befitting his original vision.

It really must be done.

 

[Amaris]

Funny thing is, TFF has got a really good sound fx mix, especially the organic breathing stuff, very expressive. I remembered a muffled sound for the torp launch, but didn't realize how off it was till reading this. Maybe the local 'weather' at the center of the galaxy drowned out the usual noise fx.

If you look past the much-maligned (and deservedly so) visual effects, TFF actually has excellent production values. Perhaps the best of any of the TOS films.

The cinematography by Andrew Laszlo is excellent and one of the few Trek entries that's shot like a film instead of a TV show. The production design by Herman Zimmerman, particularly the bridge and the observation deck, is beautiful. The sound mix is quite good and adds a depth many of the Trek films lack. And the music by Jerry Goldsmith is, of course, masterful.

Methinks that perhaps the overall production value of TFF gets unfairly judged solely on the basis of its inept visual effects when, in fact, everything else production-wise is quite good.

I wholeheartedly agree. The visual effects doom the movie to stereotyping because of the poor job done by Ferran. Everything about the movie, I believe, is very well done. It's one of my favorite movies.

J.

 

[cardinal biggles]

But yeah, both films had a poor representation of Engineering...but, since they didn't have the TMP Engineering set...I guess they were trying to keep costs down and Scotty only had small bits of dialog in both those scenes.

I really didn't like them using TNG-looking stuff in sickbay and elsewhere...

I'm curious as to why the TFF production team didn't have the freedom to make little cosmetic changes to the TNG sets — simple ones like painting the doors a different color, or putting movie-era signage on the walls — but the TUC production team did. It makes a world of difference. Yeah, you know they're the same sets, but you can at least trick your mind into thinking they're different. (The only truly glaring anachronism being the TNG warp reactor on both the Enterprise-A and Excelsior; a shame they couldn't do anything about that...)

 

[trevanian]

The entire Associates & (Bran) Ferren effects fiasco on TFF just stinks. I'm sure he did the best he could...but dudes who run small effects houses and normally do little more than TV commercial work should not be doing f/x for multimillion-dollar franchise films. .

He had just spent a long time trying for and losing the vfx contract for THE ABYSS, so he was trying to get bigger jobs than TREK (presumably with the idea of doing a lot of subcontracting out for parts, like he did for the model work with Peter Wallach on TFF.)

 

[trevanian]

But yeah, both films had a poor representation of Engineering...but, since they didn't have the TMP Engineering set...I guess they were trying to keep costs down and Scotty only had small bits of dialog in both those scenes.

I really didn't like them using TNG-looking stuff in sickbay and elsewhere...

I'm curious as to why the TFF production team didn't have the freedom to make little cosmetic changes to the TNG sets — simple ones like painting the doors a different color, or putting movie-era signage on the walls — but the TUC production team did. It makes a world of difference. Yeah, you know they're the same sets, but you can at least trick your mind into thinking they're different.

I agree that it seems like that could have been an easy fix, and the only thing that comes to mind is that the TFF bridge was already somewhat in the TNG palette, so they figured painting would distract or not mix with what they had going.

Whereas in TUC, they have the bridge tons darker, so you go darker throughout the ship, which also goes with the film's tone and helps hide some of the TNGedness of the designs.

I think signage is the real issue, that TFF could have just put some covers over the most distractingly obvious 24th century stuff and kept the rooms as they were, or simply turned off a ton of lights to leave the rooms in shadow (maybe the illumination team hadn't finished working on the ship, or the fuses wouldn't be arriving till Tuesday, both of which would've worked with TFF's lame-duck E.)

 

[QuasarVM]

The entire Associates & (Bran) Ferren effects fiasco on TFF just stinks. I'm sure he did the best he could...but dudes who run small effects houses and normally do little more than TV commercial work should not be doing f/x for multimillion-dollar franchise films. .

He had just spent a long time trying for and losing the vfx contract for THE ABYSS, so he was trying to get bigger jobs than TREK (presumably with the idea of doing a lot of subcontracting out for parts, like he did for the model work with Peter Wallach on TFF.)

I've never heard that Ferren was trying to get The Abyss gig. Thank GOD that didn't happen...they'd have ruined it for sure.

 

[trevanian]

The entire Associates & (Bran) Ferren effects fiasco on TFF just stinks. I'm sure he did the best he could...but dudes who run small effects houses and normally do little more than TV commercial work should not be doing f/x for multimillion-dollar franchise films. .

He had just spent a long time trying for and losing the vfx contract for THE ABYSS, so he was trying to get bigger jobs than TREK (presumably with the idea of doing a lot of subcontracting out for parts, like he did for the model work with Peter Wallach on TFF.)

I've never heard that Ferren was trying to get The Abyss gig. Thank GOD that didn't happen...they'd have ruined it for sure.

I think the CINEFEX article on TFF mentions this (either that or their issue on ABYSS, which is one of their best, both photographically and coveragewise.) Their TFF article is ... well, there are some goofs in it, and a surprisingly arch attitude toward Trek given the mag's usual 'just the facts' approach.

 

[QuasarVM]

He had just spent a long time trying for and losing the vfx contract for THE ABYSS, so he was trying to get bigger jobs than TREK (presumably with the idea of doing a lot of subcontracting out for parts, like he did for the model work with Peter Wallach on TFF.)

I've never heard that Ferren was trying to get The Abyss gig. Thank GOD that didn't happen...they'd have ruined it for sure.

I think the CINEFEX article on TFF mentions this (either that or their issue on ABYSS, which is one of their best, both photographically and coveragewise.) Their TFF article is ... well, there are some goofs in it, and a surprisingly arch attitude toward Trek given the mag's usual 'just the facts' approach.

I have em both, but it's been years since I've read them. The factoid about Ferren and Abyss must have gotten deleted somewhere along the line.

I'm curious to see what Ferren has worked on since TFF...I'll have to check IMDB...

 

[cooleddie74]

The entire Associates & (Bran) Ferren effects fiasco on TFF just stinks. I'm sure he did the best he could...but dudes who run small effects houses and normally do little more than TV commercial work should not be doing f/x for multimillion-dollar franchise films. .

He had just spent a long time trying for and losing the vfx contract for THE ABYSS, so he was trying to get bigger jobs than TREK (presumably with the idea of doing a lot of subcontracting out for parts, like he did for the model work with Peter Wallach on TFF.)

I've never heard that Ferren was trying to get The Abyss gig. Thank GOD that didn't happen...they'd have ruined it for sure.

Could you imagine how shitty the CGI alien heads and water effects would look had Ferren used his less sophisticated methods to create those scenes? Ugh. THE ABYSS has enough issues and flaws in its current incarnation without having been tanked(no pun intended)by Ferren.

 

[cardinal biggles]

I'm curious to see what Ferren has worked on since TFF...I'll have to check IMDB...

Not much in the visual effects business. I know that at some point he became president of Walt Disney Imagineering; he's mentioned in James B. Stewart's exposé DisneyWar as being one of those behind Michael Eisner's controversial (and ultimately abortive) plans for an American history-centered theme park in Virginia in the mid-90s.

 

[QuasarVM]

He had just spent a long time trying for and losing the vfx contract for THE ABYSS, so he was trying to get bigger jobs than TREK (presumably with the idea of doing a lot of subcontracting out for parts, like he did for the model work with Peter Wallach on TFF.)

I've never heard that Ferren was trying to get The Abyss gig. Thank GOD that didn't happen...they'd have ruined it for sure.

Could you imagine how shitty the CGI alien heads and water effects would look had Ferren used his less sophisticated methods to create those scenes? Ugh. THE ABYSS has enough issues and flaws in its current incarnation without having been tanked(no pun intended)by Ferren.

Say WHAT??!!!

I love the Abyss! What did you not like about it?

But, yeah...Ferren would have "sunk" the film for sure! There's telling what "depths" the effects would have sunk to!

 

[QuasarVM]

I'm curious to see what Ferren has worked on since TFF...I'll have to check IMDB...

Not much in the visual effects business. I know that at some point he became president of Walt Disney Imagineering; he's mentioned in James B. Stewart's exposé DisneyWar as being one of those behind Michael Eisner's controversial (and ultimately abortive) plans for an American history-centered theme park in Virginia in the mid-90s.

IMDb makes it look like Star Trek V was his magnum opus. He may have done other things afterward, but that appears to be his biggest FX gig.

What a way to go out...

 

[trevanian]

I've never heard that Ferren was trying to get The Abyss gig. Thank GOD that didn't happen...they'd have ruined it for sure.

Could you imagine how shitty the CGI alien heads and water effects would look had Ferren used his less sophisticated methods to create those scenes? Ugh. THE ABYSS has enough issues and flaws in its current incarnation without having been tanked(no pun intended)by Ferren.

Say WHAT??!!!

I love the Abyss! What did you not like about it?

But, yeah...Ferren would have "sunk" the film for sure! There's telling what "depths" the effects would have sunk to!

Well, there are a ton of storytelling problems in it, the part where they search the sub goes on forever in the theatrical cut, and forever and ever and ever in the extended cut ... the movie looks wonderful, and the middle has some good stuff, but then it stops dead for Lindsay's drowning and eventual revival. Emotionally, the movie doesn't ever work for me in any way outside of, 'good fight scene' and 'great shot' so it is pretty much the antithesis of ALIENS, which to me was just good solid entertainment in both its cuts.

I might eventually change my mind ... it took me over a quarter-century to finally like the first ALIEN movie, though I always loved its character approach (my biggest problem with those pics is that I'd rather see a movie in that universe that didn't have aliens in it, that just dealt with the human aspect.)
But all that is for another thread ...

I'd actually figure all that blue white UV centrifuge stuff Ferren generated for TMP would have worked well for ABYSS's creatures. But god knows how he'd've matted the suckers. The way Cameron fires people, I'm sure Ferren's group would have been ousted as soon as they missed a delivery date anyway.

 

[QuasarVM]

Could you imagine how shitty the CGI alien heads and water effects would look had Ferren used his less sophisticated methods to create those scenes? Ugh. THE ABYSS has enough issues and flaws in its current incarnation without having been tanked(no pun intended)by Ferren.

Say WHAT??!!!

I love the Abyss! What did you not like about it?

But, yeah...Ferren would have "sunk" the film for sure! There's telling what "depths" the effects would have sunk to!

Well, there are a ton of storytelling problems in it, the part where they search the sub goes on forever in the theatrical cut, and forever and ever and ever in the extended cut ... the movie looks wonderful, and the middle has some good stuff, but then it stops dead for Lindsay's drowning and eventual revival. Emotionally, the movie doesn't ever work for me in any way outside of, 'good fight scene' and 'great shot' so it is pretty much the antithesis of ALIENS, which to me was just good solid entertainment in both its cuts.

I might eventually change my mind ... it took me over a quarter-century to finally like the first ALIEN movie, though I always loved its character approach (my biggest problem with those pics is that I'd rather see a movie in that universe that didn't have aliens in it, that just dealt with the human aspect.)
But all that is for another thread ...

I'd actually figure all that blue white UV centrifuge stuff Ferren generated for TMP would have worked well for ABYSS's creatures. But god knows how he'd've matted the suckers. The way Cameron fires people, I'm sure Ferren's group would have been ousted as soon as they missed a delivery date anyway.

Cameron fires people because he's a perfectionist...and knows what he wants to see and he expects everyone to work as hard as he does.

 

[trevanian]

Say WHAT??!!!

I love the Abyss! What did you not like about it?

But, yeah...Ferren would have "sunk" the film for sure! There's telling what "depths" the effects would have sunk to!

Well, there are a ton of storytelling problems in it, the part where they search the sub goes on forever in the theatrical cut, and forever and ever and ever in the extended cut ... the movie looks wonderful, and the middle has some good stuff, but then it stops dead for Lindsay's drowning and eventual revival. Emotionally, the movie doesn't ever work for me in any way outside of, 'good fight scene' and 'great shot' so it is pretty much the antithesis of ALIENS, which to me was just good solid entertainment in both its cuts.

I might eventually change my mind ... it took me over a quarter-century to finally like the first ALIEN movie, though I always loved its character approach (my biggest problem with those pics is that I'd rather see a movie in that universe that didn't have aliens in it, that just dealt with the human aspect.)
But all that is for another thread ...

I'd actually figure all that blue white UV centrifuge stuff Ferren generated for TMP would have worked well for ABYSS's creatures. But god knows how he'd've matted the suckers. The way Cameron fires people, I'm sure Ferren's group would have been ousted as soon as they missed a delivery date anyway.

Cameron fires people because he's a perfectionist...and knows what he wants to see and he expects everyone to work as hard as he does.

All true. Several people I've spoken to have said working OT and goldentime on ABYSS and T2 is what paid for their homes ... but some of them still wouldn't work for him again. I'm a little more sensitive to the crew POV lately because I've been writing for ICG, and so the matter of crews getting hurt or killed during overwork situations is big.

 

[QuasarVM]

Well, there are a ton of storytelling problems in it, the part where they search the sub goes on forever in the theatrical cut, and forever and ever and ever in the extended cut ... the movie looks wonderful, and the middle has some good stuff, but then it stops dead for Lindsay's drowning and eventual revival. Emotionally, the movie doesn't ever work for me in any way outside of, 'good fight scene' and 'great shot' so it is pretty much the antithesis of ALIENS, which to me was just good solid entertainment in both its cuts.

I might eventually change my mind ... it took me over a quarter-century to finally like the first ALIEN movie, though I always loved its character approach (my biggest problem with those pics is that I'd rather see a movie in that universe that didn't have aliens in it, that just dealt with the human aspect.)
But all that is for another thread ...

I'd actually figure all that blue white UV centrifuge stuff Ferren generated for TMP would have worked well for ABYSS's creatures. But god knows how he'd've matted the suckers. The way Cameron fires people, I'm sure Ferren's group would have been ousted as soon as they missed a delivery date anyway.

Cameron fires people because he's a perfectionist...and knows what he wants to see and he expects everyone to work as hard as he does.

All true. Several people I've spoken to have said working OT and goldentime on ABYSS and T2 is what paid for their homes ... but some of them still wouldn't work for him again. I'm a little more sensitive to the crew POV lately because I've been writing for ICG, and so the matter of crews getting hurt or killed during overwork situations is big.

From all accounts, he'd be a tough SOB to work for...no doubt. But, I love his films and am a huge fan. I think he's one of the great directors.

We'll know for sure when Avatar comes out.

 

[Genesis Does]

Anyone ever notice these two things:

SFS: There is a burn mark on the warp nacelle?

Generations: THE EXACT SAME BIRD OF PREY DESTRUCTION SCENE AS IN TUC! I said something about that when I saw it in the theatres. They got away with it on me from the Drydock scenes until yesterday when I viewed TWOK with both commentaries on. I can understand that they did that there, but its so blatant for me in Generations.

 

[QuasarVM]

Anyone ever notice these two things:

SFS: There is a burn mark on the warp nacelle?

Generations: THE EXACT SAME BIRD OF PREY DESTRUCTION SCENE AS IN TUC! I said something about that when I saw it in the theatres. They got away with it on me from the Drydock scenes until yesterday when I viewed TWOK with both commentaries on. I can understand that they did that there, but its so blatant for me in Generations.

That use of stock footage was lame.

 

[cooleddie74]

I've never heard that Ferren was trying to get The Abyss gig. Thank GOD that didn't happen...they'd have ruined it for sure.

Could you imagine how shitty the CGI alien heads and water effects would look had Ferren used his less sophisticated methods to create those scenes? Ugh. THE ABYSS has enough issues and flaws in its current incarnation without having been tanked(no pun intended)by Ferren.

Say WHAT??!!!

I love the Abyss! What did you not like about it?

But, yeah...Ferren would have "sunk" the film for sure! There's telling what "depths" the effects would have sunk to!

The legendary, anticlimactic ending was so awful it taints the rest of the film...at least for me. It's not a bad movie. It's a good film with one of the most disappointing endings in all of recent movie history.

 

[QuasarVM]

Could you imagine how shitty the CGI alien heads and water effects would look had Ferren used his less sophisticated methods to create those scenes? Ugh. THE ABYSS has enough issues and flaws in its current incarnation without having been tanked(no pun intended)by Ferren.

Say WHAT??!!!

I love the Abyss! What did you not like about it?

But, yeah...Ferren would have "sunk" the film for sure! There's telling what "depths" the effects would have sunk to!

The legendary, anticlimactic ending was so awful it taints the rest of the film...at least for me. It's not a bad movie. It's a good film with one of the most disappointing endings in all of recent movie history.

Meh...I liked the aliens. The more aliens the better.

I totally did not agree with Roger Ebert's review on "At The Movies" where he said "It would have been a great film without the aliens"...or some such nonsense.

I was like......

I didn't go to see it to see some dramatic 2 hour version of "The Undersea World of Jaques Cousteau"!

The NTBs were the draw for me...