"you broke your little ships"

[SeerSGB]

Haven't we seen drinking glasses and pitchers break in TNG? Why not make those out of transparent aluminium? There could be any number of reasons you can't use it for everything: maybe there's minimum size before it loses its transparent properties or become no different than glass?

 

[C.E. Evans]

It could also be that some stuff is replicated so precisely that they behave like the real thing.

 

[SeerSGB]

It could also be that some stuff is replicated so precisely that they behave like the real thing.

There's that too. It'd make sense there would be different application types of the stuff. Do you need something that can withstand space and warpfield stresses in a display case or do you just need something that's clear and easy to clean?

 

[Timo]

...Also, again it should be pointed out that we don't know how or whether transparent aluminum shatters. There's nothing to say that the display case isn't made of transparent aluminum.

In terms of physics, if it's transparent, then it's inherently brittle. Transparency is rigidity, down at the atomic level, and rigid structures shatter. If you make a display case or a drinking glass out of transparent aluminum, it might be very strong up till a certain point, at which it shatters - and 24th designers would rather make use of these qualities by manufacturing the display case and the glass so that they are at most as strong as their glass-made equivalents but much thinner and lighter. Perhaps there's no requirement for an unbreakable glass or display case, but it's always a good idea to have these things take up less of the "payload mass"...

That's how we make automobiles today, after all. Today's stainless steel is better than its 1950s equivalent, but today's cars rust out more quickly and are more vulnerable to getting dented because we have chosen to use the superior qualities of the material to make the cars lighter, not more durable or even equally durable.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anji]

Transparent aluminum could be toxic.

 

[Finn]

^huh?

 

[Tiberius]

...Also, again it should be pointed out that we don't know how or whether transparent aluminum shatters. There's nothing to say that the display case isn't made of transparent aluminum.

This is true, but something tells me that if transparent aluminium shatters so easily you can do it by swinging a phaser rifle, they probably WON'T be using it in their windows...

 

[Timo]

...Unless it's just one of the things used to make a starship window. From "In Theory", we know transparent aluminum is present in at least some windows - but then again, ordinary amorphous glass is present in many types of armored glass, and this doesn't mean that amorphous glass would be particularly bulletproof or that it wouldn't be used in tempered glass display cases.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Trekker4747]

Transparent aluminum could be toxic.

There is nothing... Well, anywhere, to support this.

 

[Search4]

And it could be delicious. Picard would be nibbling at the pieces, so they used traditional glass.

I agree the real question is why the ships broke. Perhaps that's a safety feature - rather than have whole models whizzing around during a hard stop without safeties?

 

[Timo]

Why should things be unbreakable? There would be value in them being fragile, rather. Much as with the HMS Victory model that LaForge built.

Although admittedly these aren't precious examples of handicraft, just trivial pieces of mass-production decoration. But one wonders why those would have to be unbreakable, either. It's still a question of whether unbreakability is something our heroes can do without any price tag and thus should do as default.

Perhaps we should rather be discussing the awesome destructive power of a standard Starfleet issue rifle butt? It would certainly be worthwhile to build those to be capable of shattering armored glass.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Satyrquaze]

^ Its kinda a moot point since Picard didn't use the butt... of the rifle.

Side note: I think I'll make an effort to use that phrase out of context in conversation today.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Why is Chocrane remembered as the father of warp drive whilst Lily is merely consigned to the appendix of the history books?

She was busy doing all the real work.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Why is Chocrane remembered as the father of warp drive whilst Lily is merely consigned to the appendix of the history books?

She was busy doing all the real work.

^ Don't forget about whoever invented Warp Drive for the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites... etc... none of whom apparently get any sort of lip-service at all in the Federation.

The question is always "Who invented Warp Drive?" not "Who invented Warp Drive for the human race, since all the other founding races already had Warp Drive?" in tests and the answer is always 'Zephram Cochrane'.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Why is Chocrane remembered as the father of warp drive whilst Lily is merely consigned to the appendix of the history books?

She was busy doing all the real work.

^ Don't forget about whoever invented Warp Drive for the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites... etc... none of whom apparently get any sort of lip-service at all in the Federation.

The question is always "Who invented Warp Drive?" not "Who invented Warp Drive for the human race, since all the other founding races already had Warp Drive?" in tests and the answer is always 'Zephram Cochrane'.

I once started a thread in the Trek Tech forum asking about what made Cochrane's engine so special? Prior to ENT, it might have been argued that other civilizations had different kinds of faster-than-light drive and Cochrane's engine created a new standard for everyone else to follow, including ultimately the Vulcans.

But that idea went out the window when ENT established that Cochrane's engine was only special to Humans.

I think, though, in TOS the original idea was that nobody in our little corner of the Galaxy had a FTL drive before Cochrane's invention and that it's importance was on an interstellar scale maybe.

 

[Timo]

We're a bit into the urban myth territory here. How often do we really hear Zephram Cochrane praised for inventing warp drive? And how many of those occasions involve somebody else besides patriotic Earth humans?

Admittedly, the very first time the issue arises, it's Spock commenting on Cochrane's fame. But he has the right to comment on the praise Cochrane receives from humans, even if he as a semi-Vulcan shares none of the sentiment, and no full Vulcan or other UFP citizen feels particularly proud about Zephram, either.

Personally, I prefer not giving Cochrane galactic significance. Humans and the entire Federation in TOS are bit players compared with the cultures Kirk faces weekly. And the (few) peoples we saw flocking together with Earth didn't strike me as technologically backward underdogs, even if it was an Earth warpship taking them to the interstellar conference...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

We're a bit into the urban myth territory here. How often do we really hear Zephram Cochrane praised for inventing warp drive? And how many of those occasions involve somebody else besides patriotic Earth humans?

The same questions can really be put to any inventor in the Star Trek universe.

Admittedly, the very first time the issue arises, it's Spock commenting on Cochrane's fame. But he has the right to comment on the praise Cochrane receives from humans, even if he as a semi-Vulcan shares none of the sentiment, and no full Vulcan or other UFP citizen feels particularly proud about Zephram, either.

The only thing is that Spock also says that Cochrane was revered throughout the known galaxy. I think the original intent in TOS' "Metamorphosis" was that Cochrane was the inventor of the very first warp engine ever in our part of the Galaxy and that prior to that, everyone--including Vulcans and other non-Humans--either were confined to sublight drives or used a cruder form of FTL drive perhaps.

But...by the time of First Contact, I do think we start to see Cochrane's invention become much more of a localized thing, something that was made important solely because it enabled Humans to join a larger galactic community with other starfaring races that already had warp technology. It was definitely the case by the time we got to ENT.

 

[Timo]

The only thing is that Spock also says that Cochrane was revered throughout the known galaxy.

..In an episode where Kirk tells Cochrane that mankind has spread out through this known galaxy. (Indeed, the definition of "known galaxy" is probably from the human viewpoint in both cases.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

The only thing is that Spock also says that Cochrane was revered throughout the known galaxy.

..In an episode where Kirk tells Cochrane that mankind has spread out through this known galaxy.

That can be taken that Cochrane's invention was spread out through this part of the Galaxy as well.

(Indeed, the definition of "known galaxy" is probably from the human viewpoint in both cases.)

Or it can be taken from the Federation's viewpoint since most of the Galaxy hasn't been explored yet.

 

[Satyrquaze]

We're a bit into the urban myth territory here. How often do we really hear Zephram Cochrane praised for inventing warp drive?

I look at it from this perspective: Barclay was practically a tweener girl coming face-to-face with Justin Beiber when he met Cochrane in ST:FC. Laforge managed to restrain himself a little better.

The character has had an entire episode, a movie devoted to him, and was mentioned in seemingly every other episode of ENT.

According to Memory Alpha:

• Cochrane is the measure of subspace distortion, but I wonder what the Vulcans call it.
• Cochrane has had at least two shuttlecraft named after him. I say 'at least' because I'm pretty sure that the USS Enterprise and USS Voyager are then only two ships that have shuttlecraft by that name.
• Cochrane has a battle tactic named for him. I am left wondering why.
• Cochrane has the distortion created by warp engines named after him.
• Cochrane has two Starfleet medals named for him.
• Cochrane has a starship named after him.

I think all these examples as some level of praise. Meanwhile we've never even heard of who invented Warp Drive for any of the other founding races of the Federation.

And how many of those occasions involve somebody else besides patriotic Earth humans?

You speak of 'patriotic humans' as though they are in the minority. Roughly 75% of the main characters in all of Trek have been patriotic humans.

Couldn't Spock, T'Pol, or Tuvok have once mentioned what Vulcan invented Warp Drive in antiquity?