Tuvok & Neelix

[jmidnight_99]

Time for me to marathon binge... but Ethan Phillips really sold the villainy of his Ferengi character in "Menage a Troi". So I don't think he's a bad actor, but I'm thinking you have a point about Neelix being abandoned. Heck, even his final episode was a massive stretch.
Also, what were the other actors in the top casting sessions like? Phillips did it the best...

Probably, he fit the suit. Have you ever seen the Voyager excerpts with the original captain? I've seen it once, and it still hurts. The original captain was hired for her name, not her performance, and don't let the propganda fool you, she was replaced once they saw her performance.

Yeah, I saw Phillips do a bit of stand-up at the NYC premiere for "What We Left Behind" and he was pretty entertaining. If the character failed, I don't think the blame can be laid solely or necessarily mostly at his feet. He seemed capable of doing a fine job in episodes like "Jetrel"...but most of the time the writers didn't seem to know what to do with him other than go for humor...with mixed results. I always found the Neelix-Tuvok interactions particularly awkward, and I wish the writers had dropped that particular trope. We all have annoying coworkers to be sure, but Neelix was on the level where I might have filed a complaint with HR.

I felt "Jetrel" was really awful, and rank it in my bottom 5 Voyager episodes. I don't "skip" much, but I have to skip this one. To be fair, James Ssssssslurrryan's voice annoys the living crap out of me, but Ethan Phillips is as much to blame. I know... you're entitiled to your opinion... but really. The character had no chemistry anywhere. Oh, he was in an amusing scene or two, I'm not denying that. But his scenes with Tuvok weren't funny, his scenes with Kes weren't believable, neither were his scenes with Tom, and no one cared when the episodes that revolved around him.

As a show progresses, characters sometimes become "breakout" characters, sometimes they fade. Sometimes a character is supposed to be temporary, but it clicks so well that the character becomes permanent. I firmly believe if the scenes with Neelix worked, he would have been a breakout character. He should have been, and needed to be. But he was played like a boring, hapless boob. If you read the scripts, the words aren't the words of a hapless boob, Phillips interpretation of those word makes it so. I can only assume he was trying to be amusing and funny.

And your last sentences suggests the point, though. His interplay with Tuvok should have been funny, not awkward. In scenes where Tuvok and Tom are teasing each other it works:

Tom Paris : These people have been traveling for 400 years. They've learned a thing or two about living comfortably!
Tuvok : Our systems are more than adequate.
Tom Paris : Ah! I give up!
Chakotay : After only two minutes? Tuvok, how do you do it?
Tuvok : I wait until his own illogic overwhelms him.

These lines are delivered flawlessly, and it is a fun, laugh out loud moment, especially with Tim Russ' deadpan delivery and Tuvok's chemistry with Paris. Now watch the scene in "Tuvix" where the ever "joyful" Neelix tries to get Tuvok to sing, but the song he picks is a Vulcan funeral dirge. The whole scene should have been funny, but is instead awkward and painful, and it isn't Tim Russ fault. There is no chemistry.

What I like about Neelix is often his advice was really good and he had such an interest in the food he was serving. I'll take him over Guinan for sure

Occasional advice late at night in the mess hall, and serving wierd food does not a sucessful ensemble make.

 

[jmidnight_99]

The character of Neelix was, like many aspects of VOY, something that started with a good idea was found wanting in the execution. I'm wary of blaming Ethan Phillips because ultimately an actor can only work with what they're given - yes different actors will bring different things etc but ultimately they're reading words from a page. I don't see that Ethan Phillips was any worse an actor than the majority of series regulars - I mean granted he isn't Patrick Stewart but you'll never fill your whole cast with actors of that calibre. Of the original VOY cast I'd put Phillips on par with Beltran, Lien and Wang. Mulgrew and Picardo are clearly a level above but what can you do?

What? Jeri Ryan was a superb actress. I can rattle off a dozen episodes where she had scenes where her acting skills were amazing, "Infinite Regress" and "Body and Soul" to name two. The second or so time I watched "Infinite Regress", for a second I forgot she was Seven after she became the mother looking for her Starfleet officers son. Ditto for the chemistry between her and Robert Picardo in "Body and Soul". It's the same Voyager, it's the same "words on the page", it's the same writing and editing staff, but it's an instance where superb actor(s) brought the scenes to life.

Phillips was bad, I admit I'm making a stretch that he and he alone ruined Neelix, but from what I observe, i stand by it. Maybe he is a good actor and was just bad for the part. But I've seen him in other TV shows and he's just as bad. As someone else pointed out, his scenes with Tuvok weren't funny, they were awkward. His scenes with Kes weren't believeable, they were awkward. His scenes with Tom... you get it. And he was always played as a boob. This is the interpretation of the character and the interpretation of the words on the page, and the chemistry he has with the rest of the cast, which is under the actor's control most of the time.

"Patrick Stewart" isn't a great actor because he gets all the great lines. With this logic, every performance of "Hamlet' should be a masterpiece solely because of the words. That isn't the case, so it's wrong.

I always got the impression they were trying to do a Spock/Bones sort of thing, where they were always bickering, but it just never seemed to pan out like that.

I think the interaction between Neelix and Tuvok was supposed to be comical an amusing, but there was no chemistry between the characters (or between Neelix and anybody really). Tuvok was the straight man, and had similar comical repartee with Paris and sometimes Kim, but his intereraction with Neelix was always just awkward instead of fun or funny. I don't think it was written to be awkward.

 

[Angry Fanboy]

What? Jeri Ryan was a superb actress. I can rattle off a dozen episodes where she had scenes where her acting skills were amazing, "Infinite Regress" and "Body and Soul" to name two.

I didn't say she wasn't a superb actress...

It's the same Voyager, it's the same "words on the page", it's the same writing and editing staff, but it's an instance where superb actor(s) brought the scenes to life.

Absolutely. But Picardo and Ryan were being written for in a way that certain members of the cast weren't. The writing staff's efforts from Season 4 were clearly directed at Mulgrew, Picardo and Ryan. The others had bits and pieces here and there, but they were the poor relations. There is only so much any actor can do with limited material.

"Patrick Stewart" isn't a great actor because he gets all the great lines.

No need for the quotation marks, that is his actual name...

 

[jmidnight_99]

I didn't say she wasn't a superb actress... Absolutely. But Picardo and Ryan were being written for in a way that certain members of the cast weren't. The writing staff's efforts from Season 4 were clearly directed at Mulgrew, Picardo and Ryan. The others had bits and pieces here and there, but they were the poor relations. There is only so much any actor can do with limited material.
No need for the quotation marks, that is his actual name...

I know you didn't say she wasn't a superb actress, that's not the point. I used her as an example, and my point is, she made that character through her interpretation of the words on the page. I don't buy that all the good lines went to Seven and the Doctor. There are plenty of Neelix-centric stories and scenes and episodes where he plays a prominent role, and you can't say that he didn't have the good lines in his own episodes, There just wasn't any chemistry, because he wasn't any good. Every awkward scene he played with Tuvok is funny when you read the script.

"Patrick Stewart" isn't a great actor because he gets all the great lines.

Obviously using "Patrick Stewart" as a metaphor for "any good actor". Let me rephrase:

No actor is a great actor because he gets all the great lines.

BTW: Have a look at this: https://i.redd.it/1ppfukml2ncz.png

 

[Angry Fanboy]

I still don't get putting the actor's actual name in quotation marks. Anyway...

Patrick Stewart (sans quotation marks) is considered a great actor, but this requires a combination of his own skills and good scripts - no matter how good of an actor Stewart is, if he was just filming McDonalds commercials he wouldn't be held in the same regard.

Daniel Day-Lewis is another example - phenomal actor, but very selective about scripts and roles. Obviously a combination of both is required.

Now I've already said Phillips isn't at that level, no one would argue otherwise, but what he had to work with, particularly as the series went on, was very small beer. The writers' attention became almost entirely focussed on Janeway, Seven and the Doctor.

 

[MrPointy]

They're the odd couple.

 

[Makarov]

Daniel Day-Lewis would be an amazing star trek actor imagine a series led by that guy

 

[TopperHenly]

They mix like oil and water, and yet it seems they are always thrown together in away missions, or other scenarios where the Capt, has them working together, or along with others. Seems to me that Janeway isn't being very considerate to Tuvok, or is it because she knows that Tuvok being a Vulcan is only person who can put up with Neelix and his annoying ways?
Not that Neelix is so horrible, but lets face it, he can be annoying and inconsiderate if not down right rude and obnoxious at times. I like his (Neelix) character though, and he does know a bit about the Delta quadrant so I understand why he is allowed to stay aboard Voyager. It just seems like he goes out of his way to be a thorn in Tuvok's butt at times , and on purpose.

I found the Tuvok/Neelix relationship as enjoyable as that of Janeway/Seven of Nine.

As much as I enjoyed Voyager, I had skipped a lot of the earlier seasons. What was the best episodes that they were in?

 

[jmidnight_99]

I still don't get putting the actor's actual name in quotation marks. Anyway...

Patrick Stewart (sans quotation marks) is considered a great actor, but this requires a combination of his own skills and good scripts - no matter how good of an actor Stewart is, if he was just filming McDonalds commercials he wouldn't be held in the same regard.

Daniel Day-Lewis is another example - phenomal actor, but very selective about scripts and roles. Obviously a combination of both is required.

Now I've already said Phillips isn't at that level, no one would argue otherwise, but what he had to work with, particularly as the series went on, was very small beer. The writers' attention became almost entirely focussed on Janeway, Seven and the Doctor.

By the middle of the show they had marginalized the character. At the beginning of the show, he had nothing but potential but he dropped the part. He had no chemistry with any of this cast mates. His parts with Tuvok were awkward and unbelieveable as were his parts with Kes and Tom. He played the character as a hapless boob, and it was uninteresting. So, by the end of the show, the character had been marginalized.

You're trying to make a point with all your talk about Patrick Stewart and Daniel Day Lewis and good scripts, but what I 'm trying to say is that the reverse is equally as true. Good actors get good roles. Bad ones get marginalized halfway through their series. Who the hell would waste thier best lines on Neelix? No matter what lines he was saying, they sounded like the words of a dull, hapless boob. At his best, he was just... bad. His goading of "Mr Vulcan" wasn't fun and lighthearted, it was awkward and irritating.

Now, for those reading this I'm just trying to be objective and make a point that while I love Voyager, it wasn't perfect. None of the series was perfect. In this case, I think Ethan Phillips ruined what could have been a really deep and interesting character with a rich background. Phillips never would have been able to pull that off. It just wasn't worth the investment.

 

[DonIago]

If he played the character as a hapless boob, I think it's because he was written to be a hapless boob. Reasonably good actor in a generally thankless role.

 

[Coffeenebula333]

Neelix and Tuvok should have provided a little comic relief on the series. But If you look, most of Neelix's scenes don't work with Tuvok because he lacks chemistry. If fact, it seems to me that he had no chemistry withy any character on that show including Kes. Neelix should have been a complex character with a rich background, fun and interesting but Phillips couldn't carry that, and I think the writers abandoned the character. He comes off as stupid, annoying and obnoxious all the time because that's the way the actor played him. The strange thing is, every time I've seen that actor in other shows he played the exact same character. No one likes Neelix. We like the potential the Neelix character had, and we ignore the fact that Phillips never, ever came close to realizing it.

To me the one-dimensional aspect people often perceive of Neelix's character was less of a fault on the actor's part and more a result of writers stereotyping his character. He started off as this abrasive space trash trader, then became the caring (and sometimes viciously jealous) partner of Kes, and then he evolved from the under-appreciated cook into a valuable diplomat in the crew and godfather of Naomi Wildman.

I think he was just unfairly pigeon-holed as an annoying character simply because he made no enemies among the crew and showed an eagerness to learn and be helpful, albeit sometimes in tactless ways. I liked that he relieved some the seriousness and tension in the show and there were moments when he brought out positive qualities in the characters around him. For me he's one of the underrated and underdeveloped characters in Voyager.

 

[jmidnight_99]

To me the one-dimensional aspect people often perceive of Neelix's character was less of a fault on the actor's part and more a result of writers stereotyping his character. He started off as this abrasive space trash trader, then became the caring (and sometimes viciously jealous) partner of Kes, and then he evolved from the under-appreciated cook into a valuable diplomat in the crew and godfather of Naomi Wildman.

I think he was just unfairly pigeon-holed as an annoying character simply because he made no enemies among the crew and showed an eagerness to learn and be helpful, albeit sometimes in tactless ways. I liked that he relieved some the seriousness and tension in the show and there were moments when he brought out positive qualities in the characters around him. For me he's one of the underrated and underdeveloped characters in Voyager.

And how well did he perform as the abrasive space trash trader? Did he develop that role at all? Or did he recite the lines in a boring and unconvincing way? How well did he interpret the part of the caring (and sometimes viciously jealous) partner of Kes? Was it believeable, or were the scenes awkward and hapless? Describe the chemistry between him and Tuvok in the scenes they shared. The scripts were fine... how was his interpretation of those lines? Was it funny and interesting, or was it uncomfortable, awkward and poorly played? I know it's hard to imagine how another actor might interpret a character and play a scene differently. Go research it yourself.

There is certainly a problem... first it was the scripts, now it's stereotyping. The actor sucked, and the creative staff had nowhere to go with the character.

I want someone to tell me Ethan Phillips could have played the Seven character as well as Jeri Ryan, with the same lines adjusted for gender. I want to hear that the Seven character would have still been a breakout character with Phillips in the role. I need a good laugh.

If he had, seven would have been as marginalized as Neelix.

 

[Orphalesion]

Yeah it's not completely Ethan Philipps' fault how Neelix turned out. There has never been a main character in Trek who was quite as ill-conceived as Neelix. He was supposed to be a "teddy bear like", "huggable" kid-appeal character and at the same time he was supposed to be a shifty, crafty rogue trader (and Voyager's version of Quark as well )and he was in a relationship with a woman who, while physically and psychologically mature was still just one year old, made up like a pixie-child and who's naiveté and innocence he completely exploited to control her until she tild him to get lost (and then there was that weird Paris-Kes-Neelix love triangle thing). And his makeup made him look like a irradiated hedgehog.
How was anybody supposed to make that character work? The writing pretty much fated him to be an asshat.

I'm not saying that with better writing Phillips would have been able to give Neelix Seven or Data levels of complexity and popularity, but definitely Quark's level of complexity.

 

[DonIago]

Ethan Phillips wouldn't have been cast to play a male version of Seven in the same way Jeri Ryan would never have been cast to play a female version of Neelix.

 

[Orphalesion]

I think he better comparison would be to imagine Ethan Phillips and Robert Picardo swapping roles.
Phillips' Doctor would have been different, but the character had the necessary pathos to make him work. I'm not saying it would have been quite the same, and the character would have had to be developed in a significantly different way, but I think he would have been a good, enjoyable character.

Neelix however was such a lost cause from the get-go that I doubt even Picardo could have salvaged him, let alone make him the breakout character his Doctor turned out to be.
Then again considering that Picardo apparently wrote quite a bit of his dialogue himself, he might have been able to improve the role :-P

 

[DonIago]

I'd love to see footage of Picardo and Phillips playing each others' roles. I could see it working, though I agree that there's a good chance Neelix is unsalvageable regardless of actor.

 

[Gaith]

A fun "Tuvix" review:

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[STEPhon IT]

They mix like oil and water, and yet it seems they are always thrown together in away missions, or other scenarios where the Capt, has them working together, or along with others. Seems to me that Janeway isn't being very considerate to Tuvok, or is it because she knows that Tuvok being a Vulcan is only person who can put up with Neelix and his annoying ways?
Not that Neelix is so horrible, but lets face it, he can be annoying and inconsiderate if not down right rude and obnoxious at times. I like his (Neelix) character though, and he does know a bit about the Delta quadrant so I understand why he is allowed to stay aboard Voyager. It just seems like he goes out of his way to be a thorn in Tuvok's butt at times , and on purpose.

Tuvok and Neelix just didn't fit in TNG archetypes, so the writers had to do a little more work to make their pairing something interesting. I thought they finally nailed it with the episode "Riddles" although Tuvok is not really Tuvok in that episode but it showed Tuvok having some connection with Neelix and they do share something in common which was suppressed or finally explored and that was cooking. I don't think there's an element as impactful seeing families group together for a meal, and having Tuvok share his baked goods of genius to the crew were moments I really enjoyed. I thought more thoughtful episodes like that one would've made their pairing better.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The writers just liked to go for the easy contrast quite often instead of working for their stories.

It came off like Neelix was intolerant toward Tuvok’s lack of emotional expression.

 

[at Quark's]

I still think the Neelix character was explored insufficiently. Yes, he was often annoying, almost desperately trying to please others or "earn" his place on the ship. But if you take his backstory in account (him feeling guilt over abandoning his family, the Metreon cascade, his years of eking out a meager living by scrounging and cheating just to survive) it does make some sense. It's a pity there weren't more episodes like "Fair Trade", or "Mortal Coil" or "Jetrel", as it could have led to a much more interesting Neelix character.

Come to think of it, Seven and Neelix could perhaps have helped each other grow. Both probably have seen horrible things in their past and still may have to come to terms with that, more so than any of their shipmates.