TOS-R in Widescreen?

[Therin of Andor]

Doug Otte said:
Remember when TOS-R first started? We were assured that TOS would be available in HD w/ the original effects. Now that promise has been broken...

How has the promise "been broken"? Has CBS/Paramount Home Video issued a media release to say that it will never come?

If the law of supply and demand is still being used, and enough people demand such a release, it will still come. Eventually. But it may well be that by the time HDTV is commonplace, and even the diehard TOS purists have come to expect HD quality in everything else they watch on HD TV, the demand for a HD version of "TOS w/Untouched SPFX" may not continue to be sufficient to support such a product's release.

In any case, if you're a "TOS w/Untouched SPFX" fan, you should be content to watch your old VHS recordings on a 60s style (and sized) TV monitor. And if you're in Australia, make that a b/w monitor screen.

(And I say VHS because your U-matic and reel-to-reel video machines are probably broken beyond repair.)

 

[Doug Otte]

Therin of Andor said:

Doug Otte said:
Remember when TOS-R first started? We were assured that TOS would be available in HD w/ the original effects. Now that promise has been broken...

How has the promise "been broken"? Has CBS/Paramount Home Video issued a media release to say that it will never come?

If the law of supply and demand is still being used, and enough people demand such a release, it will still come. Eventually. But it may well be that by the time HDTV is commonplace, and even the diehard TOS purists have come to expect HD quality in everything else they watch on HD TV, the demand for a HD version of "TOS w/Untouched SPFX" may not continue to be sufficient to support such a product's release.

In any case, if you're a "TOS w/Untouched SPFX" fan, you should be content to watch your old VHS recordings on a 60s style (and sized) TV monitor. And if you're in Australia, make that a b/w monitor screen.

(And I say VHS because your U-matic and reel-to-reel video machines are probably broken beyond repair.)

Therin, this board has gone over and over this argument for months. I don't feel like addressing the bulk of your asinine response, except to ask: when do you reckon they'll release the HD versions w/ original effects? I'd like to mark it on my calendar.

Mark my words: If they're not releasing it now, as an alternative to the new versions, they never will. In a few years, the original DVDs will be discontinued, the originals will not be syndicated, and the originals will never be seen by new fans. I'm hoping my DVDs will last many years...

Thanks,
Doug

 

[Therin of Andor]

Doug Otte said:
I don't feel like addressing the bulk of your asinine response

Thank you so much. I put a lot of thought into that "asinine response". Please do feel free to set your preferences to "Ignore".

Has CBS/Paramount Home Video issued a media release to say that it will never come? Can you blame them for being reluctant to release a set if the demand is no longer there?

 

[Mr Awe]

Outpost4 said:
RAMA, you tell just half the story. Yes, the TOS-R footage looks good. How about the cropped footage from the series? That I'm not too wild about.

This is inevitable but unfortunate.

That cropped footage looks horrible. Yeah, I'm sure the shots that aren't based on live action at all (e.g. space shots with all new SFx) will look fine. But once you're cropping the live footage it gets bad. Normally, I wouldn't mind so much for a TV show. However, the cinematography for TOS was so perfect. In most TV shows the "cinematography" is pretty bland, unnoticeable, but in TOS they really went the extra mile and did it amazingly. They did it better than any of the subsequent Trek series. It's a work of art that stands out, and this cropping ruins it.

I do think it's inevitable. I just hope you have the option to show the uncropped version. At least I've got my standard DVDs!

Mr Awe

 

[Doug Otte]

Therin of Andor said:

Doug Otte said:
I don't feel like addressing the bulk of your asinine response

Thank you so much. I put a lot of thought into that "asinine response". Please do feel free to set your preferences to "Ignore".

Done.
Doug

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Side note:

In ENT's final episode, footage from TNG ("Menage a Troi") is reused, but in widescreen. I have seen screencaps which seem to indicate that it was NOT cropped. How did they do that - since TNG was filmed in 4:3?

 

[Michael]

Babaganoosh said:
Side note:

In ENT's final episode, footage from TNG ("Menage a Troi") is reused, but in widescreen. I have seen screencaps which seem to indicate that it was NOT cropped. How did they do that - since TNG was filmed in 4:3?

To my knowledge it was not. Actually it was filmed in 16:9 but cropped. Hence the "Ménage A Troi" widescreen footage from "These Are The Voyages ...".

 

[windwood]

Were DS9 and Voyager also filmed in widescreen? I would buy all of these series if they were remastered in widescreen with updated effects.

And for TOS images where someone's head is cut off in a widescreen matting, I think it'd be possible to expand the image to 16:9 with cgi reconstructions. It'd be costly to do that for all the scenes, but for a few scenes where the chopping is really annoying.

 

[Outpost4]

windwood said:
Were DS9 and Voyager also filmed in widescreen?

No. Only ENT was filmed in 16:9.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Belar said:

Babaganoosh said:
Side note:

In ENT's final episode, footage from TNG ("Menage a Troi") is reused, but in widescreen. I have seen screencaps which seem to indicate that it was NOT cropped. How did they do that - since TNG was filmed in 4:3?

To my knowledge it was not. Actually it was filmed in 16:9 but cropped. Hence the "Ménage A Troi" widescreen footage from "These Are The Voyages ...".

I think you mean "filmed in 4:3 but cropped"...

 

[jayrath]

This has got to end somewhere, They're already going in and creating all-new effects. Now we're talking about cropping original scenes? Deleting material that was carefully composed, shot by shot?

What if the contemporary aspect ratio changes yet again?

Why is wider better? Really, why? Does it help make our living rooms disappear? I still can look left and right, up and down, and tell that I am not on a starship.

What if a narrower, vertical screen is tomorrow's fashion?

If you can't get over the boundaries of the screen, here's a 1950s strategy: turn off all the lights.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

HDTV is widescreen. That's why.

 

[Therin of Andor]

jayrath said:
Why is wider better? Really, why?

When people buy a widescreen TV, they can see widescreen movies just like they saw them in a cinema: no more old fashioned "pan & scan" necessary, and no complaining about "wasted" black tops and bottoms of letterboxed movies on traditional square TV screens.

But, when people have spent all that money on their widescreen TVs, and try to play old 60s TV shows on them, they get really upset that not all of their hard-earned widescreen is being utilized.

When I started buying CDs, I found myself forgetting to play my old LPs. (We also stopped playing b/w Charlie Chaplin shorts when the belt snapped on the Super 8 projector.) Out of sight, out of mind. If TOS doesn't attempt to go widescreen and HD, people will eventually get out of practice watching it in syndication, or on VHS on their old square TV in the back room. Because the expensive widescreen HD TV has pride of place in the main room.

Hey, when 3D interactive holographic TV is invented, don't you want to be able to play TOS episodes in that format, too? It'll be wild!

 

[Keith1701]

Outpost4 said:
RAMA, you tell just half the story. Yes, the TOS-R footage looks good. How about the cropped footage from the series? That I'm not too wild about.

This is inevitable but unfortunate.

Looks Good, and much better....

 

[CoveTom]

Actually, it is correct that these shows were "filmed in widescreen and then cropped," at least in a sense.

TNG, Voyager, DS9 and most of Enterprise were all shot on 35 mm film. TOS was also shot on film, but I'm not sure if it was 16 mm or 35 mm. As a result, all of those shows captured the same widescreen image on the film that a movie would.

But when the director is choosing where to place the camera and how to compose his shots, he knows that it will be shown in 4:3 on TV, so there are lines marked on his monitor that indicate how much of the image will be viewable on the TV, and he composes the shots that way.

Therefore, while you could go back to the original film elements and pull an actual widescreen version, rather than just cropping the version we got, you'd get shots that were composed very differently than what the director intended. In some cases, you might even get things in the shot like lights and crewmembers, which the director let into that portion of the shot because he knew it wouldn't be shown on TV.

Personally, I'm a purist. I'm in favor of retaining whatever shot composition was originally created by the director for the film or TV show in question. On new productions being filmed today, I prefer to see everything done in widescreen. Actually, my personal preference is the really wide 2.35:1 aspect ration and not the 16:9 one. But I don't like changing things from the way they were originally intended.

For movies that were shot and composed in widescreen, I want to see them widescreen, even if that means seeing black bars on my TV. For TV shows that were composed for 4:3 screens, I want to see them in 4:3, even if that means seeing black bars on a new widescreen TV. And for things that were shot in relatively unusual ratios, like CinemaScope and VistaVision productions, I want to see those ratios retained.

 

[Mr Awe]

jayrath said:Why is wider better? Really, why? Does it help make our living rooms disappear? I still can look left and right, up and down, and tell that I am not on a starship.

Wider is better if you're taking a 4:3 image and adding the sides to make it wider--more picture. However, if you're making a 4:3 image into a 16:9 by cropping then all you're doing is losing image. Totally depends on the technique.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

Babaganoosh said:
HDTV is widescreen. That's why.

No, there is an HD standard for 4:3 images. So, HDTV is widescreen, but it's also fullscreen.

Mr Awe

 

[Outpost4]

Technically, Babaganoosh is right. HDTV by definition uses a 16:9 screen. You are right, Mr Awe, that there is a digital television standard for a 4:3 screen. Actually there are many of them but the most common one is SDTV (Standard Definition TeleVision), which is a 4:3 screeen broadcasting in 480p. When your local station broadcasts something on the same frequency as their HDTV programming, like the local news or commercials, it is almost certainly in SDTV. The initials HDTV are reserved for 16:9 broadcasts in 720p or 1080i.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Mr Awe said:

Babaganoosh said:
HDTV is widescreen. That's why.

No, there is an HD standard for 4:3 images. So, HDTV is widescreen, but it's also fullscreen.

Negative. All HDTV broadcasts must be, by definition, 16:9.

Now some *digital* TV might be 4:3. But not all digital is HD.

All HD is digital, but not all digital is HD.

 

[Doug Otte]

Therin of Andor said:

jayrath said:
Why is wider better? Really, why?

When people buy a widescreen TV, they can see widescreen movies just like they saw them in a cinema: no more old fashioned "pan & scan" necessary, and no complaining about "wasted" black tops and bottoms of letterboxed movies on traditional square TV screens...

Very informative post, Therin, but I have to nitpick the lines quoted above. Some people on the AVS forums are already whining about seeing black bars on their HDTVs for 2.35:1 material. I don't know how vocal they'll get, or if the content manufacturers will listen, but it's possible that we'll still endure cropped material...chopping off the sides of a 2.35:1 film to "fit" a 16:9 TV.

Doug