The Kobayashi Maru
- Thread starter Kokomo
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Well, I hope we don't have to watch him take the test all three times. Because that's going to seriously cut into the time that should be spent on Archer and T'Pol's wedding.
At this point, I'll be happy if anybody involved with Star Trek gets a commendation for original thinking.
At this point, I'll be happy if anybody involved with Star Trek gets a commendation for original thinking.
I believe they will refer to the test as the Kobayashi Maru scenario. And that will make no sense at all.
If the scenario hinged on there being a SS Kobayashi Maru to rescue every time, cadets would soon learn the true nature of the test, and Kirk would not get commendation for cheating because everybody would cheat. The test should be anonymous, at most going by the moniker "no-win scenario", and even then only between seasoned officers who don't let the cadets learn that there is such a scenario.
Of course, it made no sense to begin with that Kirk would be allowed to take the test several times. If it truly was a gimmick for testing character, the judges would have gotten Kirk's measure the first time around, and would have gained no useful data from the second attempt.
Perhaps Kirk arranged for the second and third try by making a bet with one of the supervisors or something? That's the aspect of the story I'd really like to see.
Also, Kirk in the Academy has been described as a bookworm and a ramrod-straight stickler to rules, in "Where No Man" and "Court Martial". The no-win scenario story is at odds with that. So what gives?
If the scenario is to fit into the story in any manner at all, it might as well do something to clarify Kirk's character, perhaps representing a transition moment from Grade A nimrod to a likeable fellow or vice versa.
Timo Saloniemi
If the scenario hinged on there being a SS Kobayashi Maru to rescue every time, cadets would soon learn the true nature of the test, and Kirk would not get commendation for cheating because everybody would cheat. The test should be anonymous, at most going by the moniker "no-win scenario", and even then only between seasoned officers who don't let the cadets learn that there is such a scenario.
Of course, it made no sense to begin with that Kirk would be allowed to take the test several times. If it truly was a gimmick for testing character, the judges would have gotten Kirk's measure the first time around, and would have gained no useful data from the second attempt.
Perhaps Kirk arranged for the second and third try by making a bet with one of the supervisors or something? That's the aspect of the story I'd really like to see.
Also, Kirk in the Academy has been described as a bookworm and a ramrod-straight stickler to rules, in "Where No Man" and "Court Martial". The no-win scenario story is at odds with that. So what gives?
If the scenario is to fit into the story in any manner at all, it might as well do something to clarify Kirk's character, perhaps representing a transition moment from Grade A nimrod to a likeable fellow or vice versa.
Timo Saloniemi
I was watching a rather interesting show about the U.S. military academies a couple of days ago, and a senior officer at (I believe) the Naval Academy said contrary to common belief, the military actually prizes individuality and individual initiative in its leaders. Being a geek, I immediately thought of Kirk at the no-win scenario.
Perhaps we (myself included) take the test too seriously. Perhaps "cheating," the word David Marcus used after all, is too strong. The scenario is apparently for lieutenants and higher in command training (in other words, graduates who may have several months of service). It may be no more than a sophisticated form of simulation similar to those given airline pilots as part of their continuing training.
To that end, literally cheating on it is problematic. Or, at least it's an ethical issue that's shaded a little differently than cheating on a calculus test. It is a simulation in which the young officer learns something about his command ability, and Starfleet learns something about the character of its officer.
What Starfleet learned about Kirk is that he will not accept defeat. He will find a way to win. Bear in mind he said he rigged the simulation so there was a way to win, not so that he'd automatically win.
It could be that Kirk took it three times because it isn't so much a "one off" test as a training simulation. Amused with Kirk, who probably took the results harder than others who tested (who probably accepted the "lesson" -- that sometimes losing is inevitable), superiors may have been intrigued enough to let him try again to see what would happen. Frustrated the second time, they might have let him know there's no way to win. Finding that wholly unaccpetable (questioning the ethics of teaching leaders that sometimes you can't win), he was motivated to modify the simulation and ask for a third try.
I'll admit that originally I wondered why they'd give a commendation to someone for cheating. But as I've tried to explain above, this was not an Academy exam per se, but a simulation for field junior command officers. In that context, Kirk rigging it is more like a Cal-Tech prank than a cheating scandal. To that end, he showed individual initiative and unique individual problem solving skills. Which goes back to what even Stephen Ambrose said separated American officers from most officers in other services in World War II.
ETA: For what it's worth, Kirstie Alley was 30 or 31 when TWOK was filmed. It's likely she was playing Saavik at that age, too. Certainly not at an age where you'd think she's still in the Academy in any form (post-grad or whatever). So, again, the K-M must not be a test for cadets, but a training exercise for junior officers.
When you go through testing in a military situation, you're never told what the test is in advance.
I'm sure that the day that Saavik was taking the test, she was simply told to "report to the Bridge Simulator at oh-eight-hundred for operational simulations."
And it would be an "honor code violation" to discuss this test with anyone who'd never taken it who was going to have to someday. This would include ANY underclassman, or any student in the Command Division Advanced Course (where Saavik was as a lieutenant and where Kirk would have been as well).
Why might Spock have been familiar with it, having never taken it? Well, Lieutenant Spock would likely have been at the Science Branch Advanced Course at the same time that Kirk was there. Since he was not Command Branch, he would not have been in line to take this evaluation. Perhaps he was serving as an instructor, or as an academic advisor.
Or maybe he just heard about it because of the sheer fury on campus as a result of Kirk being caught "cheating" and not being punished for it (something which, I'd assume, would really rankle a relatively by-the-book Vulcan).
I agree with everything you say above, but you're underestimating one bit.
A naval lieutenant is the third rank in the officer rank structure.
Navy_____________________________Army/Air Force/Marines
Ensign___________________________Second Lieutenant
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)________First Lieutenant
Lieutenant_______________________Captain
Lieutenant Commander_____________Major
Commander________________________Lieutenant Colonel
Captain__________________________Colonel
Above this you get into the Flag Ranks (Generals/Admirals, etc) which I won't address here.
Just wanted to clarify that for non-miltary types. So you know that an Army Captain is several grades below a Navy Captain, for instance.
Now, realize, that as an O-1 (Ensign/Second Lieutenant) you serve in that grade for a minimum 2 years. Then you serve as an O-2 (Lieutenant JG/First Lieutenant) for another minimum of two years. Typically, officers see promotion to O-3 (Lieutenant/Captain) at the six-year point in their career.
So Kirk, and Saavik, weren't "a few months out of the academy" but rather roughly SIX YEARS out of the Academy when they returned for their Command Branch advanced courses.
Otherwise, you're pretty much on the mark, though.
Absolutely correct. In my case, I was an Army officer, not a naval one (final rank of O-3, same as Kirk would have been when he took the Kobayashi Maru). I went through the Army version of this sort of testing... wargaming various combat scenarios.
Most officers just go "by the book" and come out being recognized as competent officers but not as "stand-outs." Some fail miserably, and end up on a career-ending slide from that point out. A few come up with some creative solution nobody's ever thought of before... and that gets them attention that boosts their career from that point forward.
As a tactician, I was one of those "competent but not stand-out" guys. But then again, my role was an an intel analyst, not as a field commander, so this was never a problem for me. I recognized my strength and focused on that... and ended up working in a slot intended for an O-5 when I was a newly-promoted O-3. (Then I got injured and, in the Army, well.. if you can't march with a full load anymore, your career is pretty much over... oh well.)
My point? The guys who came up with the most creative solutions were the ones that got "fast-tracked" into command positions, albeit junior-level ones. Company commanders and so forth. They wouldn't be given battalion commands immediately, though... but they'd be in a position to prove that the special skills they'd shown in testing didn't represent a "FLUKE."
In the case of Jim Kirk, I'd expect him to be put into a second-in-command post on a smaller ship right out of Command School (remember, at the age of 27 or so, not as a callow kid straight out of the Academy!) This would still be a PLUM assignment, since most of his peers would be serving as helmsmen and navigators, not as first-officers.
I've always assumed that SOMETHING happened during Kirk's time in this role that got him a field promotion to command of the small ship (but not yet a GRADE promotion to the rank of Captain). So he was in command of this little ship, did some cool stuff, and by doing so earned his promotion to Captain of the Enterprise.
Very good point. I remember some story trying to tell this at one point, very poorly... where the Klingons (or was it Romulans in that novel?) recognized him as being "THE James T. Kirk????" and immediately backing down.
I reject that solution absolutely. THAT was a cheat, and if he'd done THAT it should have gotten him booted out.
On the other hand, maybe he programmed one of the three attacking ships to have a reactor failure and to become disabled, bringing the odds down to just two-to-one, and allowing him to save the Maru?
THAT seems much more like something Kirk would do...
I think you've pretty much nailed it, yeah... other than the initial "a few months out" bit, I mean...
What I'd like more is that he simply programmed a random element into the simulation that at least created a hope (if Spock were around, maybe he'd put it at a 2.457 percent chance) of success if he didn't screw up.
When he finished, I'm sure the brass were not initially amused. There would've been an investigation of the scenario's programming.
Kirk admits to rigging the program, but what amazes the brass is they find out that he didn't rig in a way where he could've known exactly what to do to win. The reprogramming only created a way to win, not a blueprint for it. Nothing Kirk could anticipate or script to assure victory. But, just the chance. Now that would be an impressive and remarkable display of character. And, it would mark Kirk's career.
Cary L. Brown, that's a great post, but although based on the Navy, Starfleet is not the Navy.
Their rules on Time in Grade for promotions is most certainly different.
We already know that it doesn't adhere to High Year Tenure either, as most of the Enterprise command crew haven't been promoted in 20 years.
Their rules on Time in Grade for promotions is most certainly different.
We already know that it doesn't adhere to High Year Tenure either, as most of the Enterprise command crew haven't been promoted in 20 years.
Why do you assume that? The TV series Star Trek was made using the US Navy as it's pattern for Starfleet. This is incontrovertible. You may argue that this can be "retconned" out of existence, but the simple fact is that the folks who made the show were almost all military veterans (it used to be that nearly everyone had served, remember, unlike the ~18% that we have today). They based this show upon what they knew.
The real question is... why would you assume that things are DIFFERENT? If they are different... what's the reason for them being so? You change things because they don't work, not because you want an 18-year-old guy to be a Captain. No matter what random changes you make to rank structures, the underlying rationale for not letting inexperienced, untrained personnel hold certain positions will NEVER change.
The Star Trek universe uses ranks which are based upon the US Navy. It uses ship classifications based upon the US Navy. Hell, it uses Boson's whistles to "pipe" people aboard!
There is absolutely NOTHING that we've ever seen, on-screen, in the TOS or TMP eras, and only one GLARING example in the TNG era ("Acting Ensign Wesley") that in any fashion contradict the maintaining of contemporary US Navy practices in this regard.
(And the "Acting Ensign" bit was really just the fantasy of a mentally-failing Roddenberry... and one of the more horrific elements of TNG in most people's eyes.)
So, ignoring "Acting Ensign Wesley," can you find any argument for the supposition that Starfleet's rank and promotion structures do, or MIGHT, deviate from contemporary US Navy standards and practices?
Actually, the "Acting" rank is taken from British naval parlance. During the Napoleonic Era, the Royal Navy often gave a midshipman an "Acting Lieutenant" rank wherin they hadn't yet passed their test for Lieutenant; this gave them the responsiblities of that rank but not the pay nor the commission. This was used in the Hornblower TV movies (not in the books, iirc) and in Master and Commander: Far Side of the World (towards the end of the movie before the final battle, you can see the midshipman altering his collar to reflect his new "acting" rank).
Also, another Acting rank was created in 1955 by the RN called "Acting Sub-Lieutenant." Same concept. See : Acting Sub-Lieutenant (wiki).
So, Wesley had the responsibilities of an ensign without the commission; although, I thought it would've been better had he started out as a midshipman assigned to the Enterprise and then mid-season one gotten the rank of "acting ensign" rather than just an academy candidate.
Even though TOS from WNMHGB on was based on the US Navy, "The Cage" seemed more patterned after the Napoleonic Era British Navy with several grades of Lieutnants (Number One and Spock come to mind) with very little ornamentation to show differnces in rank (although the RN by the late 18th century to 19th century already had subtle ornamentation-- buttons, epalutes and piping -- that showed rank and position).
