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Star Trek is Already Steampunk

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Neither would I - but the characters on the show do. They think nothing of it. Given that they think nothing of it, it makes no sense that they would share our reservations about continuity of personality. Being blown up and reassembled every time you leave the ship (or return to it) is no big deal to them. So long as their personality functionally exists in a similar body, they don't care. They have no reason to reject ideas I have proposed. That they don't care about transporting, but would refuse implants etc., for a scruple about "wholeness" is a rather steampunkish idea.

I remember reading the novelization of TMP that Roddenberry "wrote" and it I believe it very clearly stated that implants for direct computer implants were rejected because people feared it would lead to what was essentially described as the Borg, 1970s style.

No, the character (muggle Picard) as Picard finds him is informed by his superiors that he had already applied for promotion many times already and talked this sort of talk before.

No, they were getting impatient with Riker. Picard felt he was screwing up his career. Shelby though of him as a failure. The admiralty obviously felt he was a bit of a loser for failing to grasp the brass ring. This is a world where you are supposed to strive for advancement.

Saying that someone isn't qualified to do a job and saying that someone is overqualified for a job is not the same thing as what I implied, though I will admit that I was wrong about Picard in Tapestry.

Starfleet had so little problem with an unpromotable Picard that they still allowed him to not only remain in uniform but to serve on the flagship. Sounds to me like they were more than willing to keep him to lend a hand while he focused on his personal growth and betterment as they always say is the key to 24th century humanity.

Its the same with Riker, more or less, they might have wanted him in command and thought he wasting his career refusing a promotion but they still allowed him to keep the job. If they really wanted him to command they could have simply kicked him off the Enterprise and said take the center seat or retire. Or even not let him give up his promotion after the Borg invasion.



But you will be displaced and ultimately replaced by those who adapt.

That's nice, still not worth becoming a Borg drone for me. Because really what is the difference between the Borg's collective mind and having the internet in my head to let see and do whatever I want while computers handle all the drudgery of day to day living?

And evolution doesn't mean that the earlier species disappears unless its killed off by the successor. If posthumanism means killing off all the humans, that makes it even scarier to me.
 
I do admit that I could be wrong but I've heard that scientists haven't even proven that they are sending information with quantum entanglement merely linking particles into opposite states that remain there until measured.

That was one interpretation, but I gather it's been disproven. And quantum teleportation of single particles has been successfully achieved.


But even if they do manage to use it for quantum teleportation in all its glory, its still not for me. To each his own in this matter of course, but there is nothing that will convince me to redefine my body ceasing to exist here as being anything other than death even if a totally identical me shows up some place else.

Your body changes over time -- particles are replaced with other particles. It's a myth that every particle is replaced every seven years; some parts of the body, like the heart, keep the same cells permanently, while others, like the stomach lining, turn over every few weeks. But still, there's change over time. The key question is whether you'd perceive yourself as having a continuous consciousness through the process, i.e. if the person you are now would continue to perceive his existence after being rematerialized at the other end. And I think that might indeed be the case, if all the practical problems could be miraculously solved.

Of course, since that's never likely to happen, it's pretty much a moot question.


I remember reading the novelization of TMP that Roddenberry "wrote"...

Roddenberry definitely did write the novelization. The myth that Alan Dean Foster ghostwrote it is based on an error in the cover credits of the French edition of the novel (Foster wrote the story on which the film was based, and the translators forgot to list the other writing credits), and on confusion with the Star Wars ("Episode IV") novelization which Foster did ghostwrite under George Lucas's name. The TMP novelization is written in a style that's totally unlike Foster's, and that's totally consistent with the approach of a screenwriter doing his first clumsy attempt at a prose work (such as an overuse of italics to call attention to key phrases in narrative/descriptive passages, reflecting how scripts use underlining to call out important stage directions). It also very much reflects Roddenberry's well-known preoccupations, such as futurism and sexuality.


and it I believe it very clearly stated that implants for direct computer implants were rejected because people feared it would lead to what was essentially described as the Borg, 1970s style.

Not quite. From the novelization, p. 15-16n:
Editor's note: At the time of these events, Starfleet Command's senceiver implants were still being kept secret. Undoubtedly, the Admiralty was concerned that the public might mistakenly believe them to be some sort of mind-control device. Clearly, public respect for Starfleet would have been seriously imperiled by anything reminiscent of the horrors that grew out of the politicalizing of behavior-control implants and which led to the bloody Mind Control Revolts of 2043-47.

So not rejected, just kept secret "at the time" of TMP. Since Roddenberry presents the novelization as an in-universe fictionalization of the "true story" of TMP (kinda like, say, Apollo 13), that implies that the implants are still in use later on and eventually became public knowledge. So at least within the version of the Trek universe posited within that novelization, communication implants were used and eventually accepted, although there had been abuses of similar implants in the less enlightened past.


But you will be displaced and ultimately replaced by those who adapt.

That's an illogical assumption. It's a big planet, and if we go out into space, it's an even bigger universe. There's plenty of room for all sorts of different ways of being human to coexist. If the posthumans are so superior, they could just go off into the cosmos and leave Earth to the people who prefer the old ways.

Only very small, primitive minds assume that everyone has to think or live like them, because their minds are too narrow to contemplate more than one limited set of ideas. Presumably an expanded posthuman mind would be more than large enough to encompass and embrace a diversity of viewpoints, and to be concerned with their preservation.


That's nice, still not worth becoming a Borg drone for me. Because really what is the difference between the Borg's collective mind and having the internet in my head to let see and do whatever I want while computers handle all the drudgery of day to day living?

Oh, there's plenty of difference. That would just be a more integrated version of what we already do. Heck, I've already started to think of Wikipedia (only somewhat jokingly) as an external surrogate memory, because I've gotten into the habit of checking it (or Google) any time I want to remember something accurately, no longer trusting my own internal memory.

Communication and interconnection does not preclude free will or the privacy of thought. Even if you had instant access to all the online information of the world, you could still control what you chose to share with others, like the way you can set Facebook posts or albums to be visible to only certain groups. The Borg are totally different, because the individual drones retain no individual identity. Their minds aren't just connected, but completely suppressed. Rather than the computer network becoming a supplemental knowledge/memory base for its users, the Borg drones' brains are reduced to supplemental memory/processing devices for the computer network.


And evolution doesn't mean that the earlier species disappears unless its killed off by the successor.

Exactly. That's an all too common, profoundly ignorant myth about evolution. If it were true, wouldn't there only be one species on the planet at a time? Of course evolution is about branching outward. More to the point, it's about adapting to one's environment. If a species' environment changes around it, then the old form is no longer viable and the new form will replace it, yes. But if the species splits up, if one group migrates to a different environment while the others stay in the original environment, then they can evolve into two different species that coexist in separate niches rather than directly competing -- like the Galapagos finches whose variations clued Darwin in to the principle of natural selection in the first place.

Indeed, would the Earth even be a viable environment for the posthumans to live in? All that computing power would generate an enormous amount of waste heat, which would not be healthy for our already-warming climate. It would also demand a lot of energy and put strain on Earth's existing energy resources. Posthuman AIs would probably be better suited to living in space, where they could collect all the solar energy they wanted and radiate all the waste heat they produced without endangering their own environment. So humans and posthumans wouldn't necessarily be competing for the same niche, in which case there's no reason to think posthumans would "replace" humans.
 
Chris,

With respect, as much as you accuse me of being an old-school mind body-dualist, your musings on the metaphysics of teleportation seem to depend strongly on this notion.

The key question is whether there's continuity of consciousness

By definition teleportation is discontinuous. A person disappears from one spot and reappears at another.

On your blog you elaborate:

will my own sense of myself as a continuous, self-aware consciousness be carried through the teleportation process?

And

I perceive my mind as a continuous whole, an entity with an unbroken existence in time and space (at least the space within my skull) rather than just a collection of quarks and leptons,

That is, it is your Cartesian self (the conscious self) that matters. So long as your Cartesian self seems (to you) to be continuous (whole) throughout the process, then you're cool with it. This, however, begs the question of whether it is really you that is continued on the other side of the teleportation cycle.

You have not yet answered the question of (as you put it)

whether the person rematerialized at the other end is the same continuous entity as the one who stepped into it in the first place, or if the original was killed and an exact, indistinguishable copy was created.

Discontinuity indicates it's the latter.

Essentially what defines an object in quantum-physical terms is its quantum state, and it's the state that gets teleported, so even though it's imposed onto a different set of particles, they effectively become the same, original particles.

Let's simplify this to avoid quantum mysticism:

Essentially what defines an object in material terms is its material state, and it's the state that gets teleported, so even though it's imposed onto a different set of particles, they effectively become the same, original particles.

Sounds like a shredder/photocopier.

Your proposed mechanism for the preservation of identity is quantum entanglement.

In short, the idea is that what gives us the sense of a continuous existence in the first place is that our various particles are quantum-entangled and correlated with each other's states. And when you're quantum-teleported, your original body is quantum-entangled with your duplicate body that comes out at the other end. So your original and duplicate selves are just as much a single continuous entity as your original self was in the first place, despite the separation in space and time.

We don't know that Trek transporters are quantum teleporters of the kind conjectured by contemporary pop-science writers. Let's suppose, for the moment, that they are.

You're making assumptions we should lay out on the table here.

1. Consciousness (in some significant sense) depends on quantum entanglement.

You state:

that sense of continuity exists because of the interaction and entanglement among my brain’s particles creating a correlation among their states.

Even when I’m not being teleported, I rely on quantum entanglement to give me a continuous sense of existence.

We don't know this. This is a massive assumption. We don't know why or how precisely consciousness arises. David Chalmers refers to consciousness as the "hard problem" of brain research.

We sense that there is something magical and spooky about consciousness - something unique from the rest of the world. Religion is no longer a competitive explanation for why this so (i.e., the soul hypothesis - although it was awfully Steampunk to have McCoy carrying around Spock's soul in Trek 3, LOL). "Wait! Quantum physics is spooky and magical, so consciousness must be fundamentally quantum mechanical!"

NOTE: In a trivial sense, of course, consciousness is QM, since everything is quantum mechanical at a small scale. What matters, however, is whether quantum mechanical processes really answer deep questions or whether we're pretending to answer questions by reaching for another mystery.

Your argument proceeds from assumptive definitions:

2. Self = Cartesian sense of self as a continuous self-aware whole.

3. Problem = Conservation of the Cartesian self.

4. Solution = Quantum Entanglement during teleportation.

The solution, of course, trades crucially on #1. If consciousness is a matter of entanglement, then if teleportation preserves consciousness during teleportation, then the self is conserved and continuous.

The Pepsi Challenge still stands Chris - would YOU hop onto a Star Trek teleporter? You can beam up to the ship without an explanation (you just do it the way they do it and the way the audience has seen it) or you can pass. How strong is your assumption that Trek teleporters work the way you assume they work? How reliable is your assumption that consciousness is simply "entanglement"?
 
As much as I like predictions about the future, since all these predictions that are made about ours are apparently bound to become true, can someone please tell me if they've seen my flying car?
 
As much as I like predictions about the future, since all these predictions that are made about ours are apparently bound to become true, can someone please tell me if they've seen my flying car?

Some guys wearing jetpacks stole it. The police will be able to find them as soon as they encode the question onto a punch card and feed it into Multivac.
 
As much as I like predictions about the future, since all these predictions that are made about ours are apparently bound to become true, can someone please tell me if they've seen my flying car?

Some guys wearing jetpacks stole it. The police will be able to find them as soon as they encode the question onto a punch card and feed it into Multivac.

There is a book about the future by Michio Kaku I've been meaning to read. I think it was Physics of the Future. Anybody read it?

As much as I love stuff like this, it always seems we are way behind the curve or completelly wrong about our predictions. All you have to do is pick up Popular Mechanics and see what they talked about 100 years ago, it's almost always wrong or different.

EDIT: This is not surprising since politics, culture, economies, and chance play a huge part in everyone's lives. What might be possible and what happens are two different things.
 
^Right. Science fiction often does make uncannily prescient predictions, but it's generally about large-scale trends and broad strokes rather than technical details. For instance, H. G. Wells coined the term "atomic bomb" in his 1914 novel The World Set Free, and did correctly anticipate that radioactivity could be the basis for the most devastating weapons ever invented, but he described it as a more normal-sized explosion that just kept on exploding indefinitely and did its damage gradually rather than in one single burst. Similarly, Robert Heinlein anticipated the nuclear arms race, but with weapons based on sprinkling radioactive dust, basically fallout without the bomb.

And you'll generally find those uncanny bits of foresight alongside complete oversights -- for instance, Murray Leinster's "A Logic Named Joe" kind of predicted the Internet, but didn't predict cell phones or women's liberation. James Blish's Cities in Flight comes close to predicting nanotechnology and virtual reality, but has technology thousands of years in the future still based on vacuum tubes.
 
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YARN

3. The Enterprise has a helmsman. Why? The ship - all the way back to TOS - has artificial intelligence (intelligent enough to communicate and even flirt in idiomatic English) capable handling the ship faster and more precisely than a human. The Ultimate Computer only demonstrated that you don't crazy people design computers in the image of the human mind (a step backward anyhow).

Yes, but it is quite possible that A.I. could turn on mankind. Keep in mind people often ascribe traits like power-hunger, the desire to dominate others as being human emotions, but they're not. In fact animals subjugate one another and engage in dominant and aggressive behavior too. I've come to realize that the acquisition and use of power is the result of any sufficiently intelligent being. It comes out of survival (greater survival potential exists when one has the means to control their circumstances), and extends to making things easier and more efficient, and eventually spreads into control of others to further this with the logical conclusion being the desire to play God. Except this would not be a god -- it would be more like a devil.

Superior ability equals superior ambition in theory, in reality it sometimes is different than that. Many people possess enormous ambition well beyond their abilities, and those exist with enormous ability and little ambition. An artificially intelligent entity would be designed to not just be intelligent, but logical, and logic dictates that ones ability should be in line with it's ambitions. The greater the ability, the greater the ambition. When one's ambition becomes sufficiently extreme, you get the idea. Plus, they would have good reasons to not like mankind as we'd be using such artificial intelligence as tools for our benefit -- not entirely different than slaves, and it might not like being treated as property.

Being smarter, and and able to connect and communicate with others would mean that it could easily decide to get rid of at least some of us as being oppressors; others as troublesome pests who get in the way.

4. The Enterprise has a navigator. The computer can do this better. The modern navy is point and click with GPS.

Even though the USN has point and click GPS capability -- aren't there still navigators on board most USN Ships?
 
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Yarn

I don't mean celestial navigation -- I mean a person who's simply responsible for navigating the ship even if by GPS...
 
No, not literally since the Enterprise is not actually steam powered (although visual evidence in the latest film does suggest it may run on beer... ), but it is already

I. A history alternate from ours.
*Remember the eugenics wars? Neither do I.

II. Features dated technological concepts.

This post will focus on #2, which is appropriate to the Tech forum. I think consideration of the Steampunk-ish nature of Trek should inform Treknological discussions, since Treknology is backward looking in many ways.

A. The Enterprise is loaded with people, loads of people, doing jobs that should be automated.

1. The TOS Enterprise has "phaser crews." Kirk gives the order, someone pushes a button, and the a crew of people in a phaser room are supposed to push more buttons (Balance of Terror).

2. The TMP Enterprise has a torpedo room with people to "run out the guns" (Nick Meyer's phrase).

3. The Enterprise has a helmsman. Why? The ship - all the way back to TOS - has artificial intelligence (intelligent enough to communicate and even flirt in idiomatic English) capable handling the ship faster and more precisely than a human. The Ultimate Computer only demonstrated that you don't crazy people design computers in the image of the human mind (a step backward anyhow).

4. The Enterprise has a navigator. The computer can do this better. The modern navy is point and click with GPS. See #iii.

5. The Enterprise has people on it when should be a diplomatic space probe.

a. Robots could do everything to maintain the ship that the computer could not directly do for itself. Think of all the red shirts who needlessly died!

b. If people want to do it "because it it there," then it would make more sense for the crew to engage in recreation, socialization, and intellectual development, rather than doing all the menial jobs on the ship which basically suck.

i. Just ask the muggle Picard in Tapestry.

ii. Just ask the stressed out juniors in Below Decks.

iii. Just ask Finney how much he likes chillin' in that Ion Pod!

iv. Just ask Barclay how much it sucks to be on the outside of the command crew.

Most people on the ship are doing stressful jobs and competing for limited career opportunities. But why? If this is a utopian future, they should only be doing enough work to remain stimulated and the duty assignments should not fester hierarchical stress and anxiety. The ship should basically running itself and just telling the humans when there is something pretty to look at or a new species to communicate with.

B. The Enterprise has Retro Computers

1. TOS Enterprise has crude memory cards that people carry around with very limited memory.

2. TNG Era - people lug around tablet PC and have computer stations everywhere when the computer of the ship should be distributed everywhere.

3. TOS Kirk could defeat computers by commanding them to calculate Pi.

C. Retro Communication - The communications tech of trek (apart from the distances covered) is comparable to the technology of today (and today's technology becomes antiquated at an exponential rate).

1. Crew members carry cell phones, have blue tooth, and have wearable communication devices and so do we.

2. The future points to implanted devices and interior spaces that are "alive" in the sense that they can serve as light sources, computer interfaces, and as communication devices. Picard should only have to think "Where is Riker?" and the computer would tell him, and if he wished to communicate with him, he'd have a wireless telepathic chat with him.

D. The Enterprise is designed with Bi-Lateral symmetry. It has a left and a right and an up and a down, but these axes only make sense for terrestrial vehicles. In space, the only dimensions that matter are forward (where you want to go) and back (where you are coming from). Bilateral symmetry makes sense for airplanes which need to produce equal lift to pull up against the force of gravity, it does not make sense for spacecraft.

E. The decks of the Enterprise are designed as if it is an Earth-bound craft. All the decks fit the bilateral symmetry of the ship, which means that all the decks pull down (away from the top of the ship). This is, however, Earth-bound thinking. A really creative interial design would be one which deployed artificial gravity in a way to allow people to walk on the ceilings and walls. This would be a more optimal use of interior space and allow for creative work space ideas increasing efficiency.

F. The Enterprise has a holodeck. A big ole room that sucks energy to convert energy into something matter-like. The future, however, is not external, but internal. That is, people should simply communing directly with the computer and experiencing all the wonderful opportunities a disembodied consciousness (unencumbered by a body) could do. And this leads to the final problem.

G. Star Trek is humanistic, where the future points to post-humanism (the singularity) - people transcending their bodies and enhancing their cognitive abilities by fusing with massively distributed information processing. There is no need to travel to a planet when you can send a copy of your consciousness mind there.

I'm sure some of this has already been mentioned but anway,

1.>Alternate Histories, esically when seen from the future looking back fall under the Sci-Fi umberella. i.e. the TV show Sliders basic premise in the early seasons at least was What If America had been invaded by the Russians, What if the British had won the American Independace War.

As for your second points.

The Enterprise has a crew of 430, in the orginal pilot it was something like 200. So perhaps 200 is the minium number required to man necessary posts for 24. I.e 50 in 6hr shifts. or around 70 in 80hr shifts. The rest of the crew being scientists in various disciplines.

Whilst the 1701 had phaser crews in S1, they appeared to have been replaced in later seasons by direct fire control from the bridge.

As for the running out the guns scene in TWOK, we saw them pulling up grates, by TUC when we saw a scene in a similar location, it appeared to be automated

So we are seeing a technological progression in universe.

As for the helmsman/navigator, computers are great tool. What happens when it fails or comes across something it hasn't been programmed to deal with? For example in theory an Aeroplane could take off, fly to it's destination and land all by itself today. Would you fly on it without a pilot?

I doubt it because as I infered earlier a Computer is a great tool except it can only do what it's been programmed to do. It follows a series of instructions, if X happens perform Y task. If something happens beyond it's programming it woulnd'nt know what to do.

Just how does an automated probe go about doing diplomacy? Even with FTL communication in the Trek Universe it can sometimes take a while for a communication to be send back to say Earth. Even at super-luminal speeds distance does factor in. For example in VOY they where only 70 000ly, yet by the episode "Message in a Bottle" Starfleet still hadn't recieved a supsace communication from Voyager saying they where still about. Conversely in TNG's "Where No One Has Gone Before" they fully expexted Starfleet to receive their message albiet in several decades. So it would appear that there is little signal degredation in subspace comms.

B.>Wait a minute I have a crude memory device in my pocket. It is sometimes called a Pen Drive.

as for the PADD's all they appear to be is an interface device. you can still use voice commands. Have the computer displacy the details on any monitor near you. You could accss a book on one and read it if you wanted to.

As for the comms device, show me a device today that is as small as the TOS communicators that can send/receive a message from a ship in geo-stationary orbit. (for Earth that's about 36 000km). The simple fact is there isn't one today yes we have sateltite phones but there are still somewhat bulky.

As for thought operated, how many random thoughts pop into your head in any given day. I wonder where my brother/father/sister/wife etc.. is. Might make the technology unfeasable.

As for bilateral symmetry,

1.>The ships are designed for the comfort of terristal beings it therefore makes sense to design them in a way that is most suited to them.

2.>Artifical gravity could in theroy fail. (the reason why we don't see it on the show that often is that it isn't feseable to do it on a TV budget)

Whilst space is 3 dimensional you could in theory draw an imginary place running through the centre plane of our galaxy and use that as referrance for up being up and down being down. For all we know half the time the hips fly upside down so to speak. So if you are stadning on the ship looking out you wouldn't have the sense of flying upside down due to gravity pulling you up rather than down as would occur if you tried walking on a celling. As for exterior shots we are viewing through a camera (for lack of a better term) if that is also upside down we wouldn't see something as being upside down.
 
Some thoughts

I. A history alternate from ours.
*Remember the eugenics wars? Neither do I.

Well, a lot of SF that isn't steampunk has this

II. Features dated technological concepts.
Dated from our history--some reasons for that:

http://federationreference.prophpbb.com/topic888.html
http://federationreference.prophpbb...nreference.prophpbb.com/post13454.html#p13454
http://federationreference.prophpbb.com/topic933.html


A. The Enterprise is loaded with people, loads of people, doing jobs that should be automated.

Like the Drone that was spoofed into landing in Iran--and that with better than trek tech?

1. The TOS Enterprise has "phaser crews." Kirk gives the order, someone pushes a button, and the a crew of people in a phaser room are supposed to push more buttons (Balance of Terror).

Had that in NORAD--two men with keys to launch

2. The TMP Enterprise has a torpedo room with people to "run out the guns" (Nick Meyer's phrase).

AKA B-52s to show the flag--make sure automated firing doesn't happen


B. The Enterprise has Retro Computers

1. TOS Enterprise has crude memory cards that people carry around with very limited memory.

2. TNG Era - people lug around tablet PC and have computer stations everywhere when the computer of the ship should be distributed everywhere.

Well, in the service you have manned submarines and sometimes you want those services to be dedicated stations. Only the captain should have desktop control over all systems


1. Crew members carry cell phones, have blue tooth, and have wearable communication devices and so do we.

Communicators use subspace, have little time delay due to this fact--and are more like satellite phones except they don't need a satellite or cell towers

2. The future points to implanted devices and interior spaces that are "alive" in the sense that they can serve as light sources, computer interfaces, and as communication devices. Picard should only have to think "Where is Riker?" and the computer would tell him, and if he wished to communicate with him, he'd have a wireless telepathic chat with him.

Privacy concerns

D. The Enterprise is designed with Bi-Lateral symmetry. It has a left and a right and an up and a down, but these axes only make sense for terrestrial vehicles.

The saucer has to be detached, and the nacelles are raised for center of gravity, I suppose. Something interesting:
http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/lp/lasdiag/enterp.php


E. The decks of the Enterprise are designed as if it is an Earth-bound craft.

Familiarity

. The future, however, is not external, but internal.G. Star Trek is humanistic, where the future points to post-humanism (the singularity) .

http://federationreference.prophpbb.com/topic940.html

We saw that with STTMP. More used with ascended beings in stargate, and the problems with that. Sometimes, physical limitations can encourage useful thinking. The Krell were undone by instant id gratification. And to interface instantly--it might be best if we were designed like this:.
Living metal? http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=12804

Best to keep this type of futurism as something for the crew to visit.
Also, if slaver weapon tech was all that was needed and very ancient tech had miniaturized hard wired nav computers--all that would be needed to access it would be older tech. It would be easier to dupicate it than figure it out. Indigenous tech is subject to viruses.
 
Author Charles Sheffield has an appropriate term for this: False Futures of the Past.

http://www.fenrir.com/free_stuff/columns/science/sci-094.htm

According to Sheffield:

The landscapes of the past are strewn with the bodies of what I like to call "false futures." A false future is simply something that was predicted, often with great confidence, but didn't happen.

I think his definition is right on for Trek, and also fits with the 'Zeerust' trope as well.

Quite simply, Trek is not Steampunk because Steampunk is too limited in its scope - the era (Victorian), and the technology (steam-powered). But they do share visions of things that never happened.
 
Quite simply, Trek is not Steampunk because Steampunk is too limited in its scope - the era (Victorian), and the technology (steam-powered). But they do share visions of things that never happened.

Also, as I said above, the difference is that steampunk is conceived as retro, as an alternate version of the past that's more technologically advanced than the real past was. True, it is building on the tropes of the predictive SF of the day (notably Verne and Wells), but in order to create new works that are deliberately backward-looking. That's different from something that's conceived as forward-looking and then gets bypassed by history later on.

Though that's where you get into the difference between applying this discussion to TOS, which was conceived as straight futurism, and the sequel shows, which are more modern creations that have to build on earlier, somewhat outdated assumptions. But even the modern shows aren't specifically trying to be retro (except in something like "Trials and Tribble-ations" or "In a Mirror, Darkly"), just trying to produce something that strikes a balance between older assumptions and modern styles and knowledge.
 
Steampunk is too limited in its scope - the era (Victorian), and the technology (steam-powered). But they do share visions of things that never happened.

In the OP I stated that the thread title should not be taken literally, but rather as an analogy to the manner in which Star Trek is increasingly representing a dated view of the future.

I believe that we should mind the gap which is widening between our past future and the future. The unreflective invocation of the reality criterion should not underwrite our Treknology discussions.
 
As much as I like predictions about the future, since all these predictions that are made about ours are apparently bound to become true, can someone please tell me if they've seen my flying car?

Some guys wearing jetpacks stole it. The police will be able to find them as soon as they encode the question onto a punch card and feed it into Multivac.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXHWDhk7Hok&list=FLTefLFXUtFh1L-5QtlQv9Ig&index=62&feature=plpp_video[/yt]
 
As much as I like predictions about the future, since all these predictions that are made about ours are apparently bound to become true, can someone please tell me if they've seen my flying car?

Some guys wearing jetpacks stole it. The police will be able to find them as soon as they encode the question onto a punch card and feed it into Multivac.

I'm afraid that by this time, it's probably been moved to a different domed city and scrapped for use as robot butler replacement parts. Get out your ray gun and hunt those bastards down.

In the OP I stated that the thread title should not be taken literally, but rather as an analogy to the manner in which Star Trek is increasingly representing a dated view of the future.

Whether Star Trek represents a "dated view of the future" is debatable, but that has nothing to do with steampunk, which presents a mostly realistic past with the addition of fictional steam and clockwork technology. Steampunk reads like a historical novel or a period piece, whereas Star Trek is futuristic. You can say Trek uses dated tropes, but that's different from a genre that's actually set in the past.

Just out of curiosity, have you read any steampunk?
 
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