Question about the Apollo 13 movie

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

First, this film is fantastic. I love it.

Mainly my question is one that I'm trying to find the answer within the film itself which may play fast and loose with a few of the facts but should still work on it's own, for the sake of movie logic, but I understand that the answer to the question may lie in facts that are not shown in the film.

So, in the film, Mattingly is called after the crisis has been going on for some time. His job: to go into the simulator to come up with a sequence to power up the command module without using more power than they have, and that if he can do it by only using the essential systems and executing it in the correct order, they will come in under 20 amps, which is all the power they have. They even have an amp gauge to show illustrate the problem for the audience.

Well before I ask my question about this, it should be noted that when he does devise a solution, he performs the simulation again and we watch the gauge for the scene. He powers up the module and the gauge is a hair below 20 amps, and they tell him that the sequence works.

First I realize that in real life Mattingly wasn't the only guy working this problem, and that, at this point in the movie, his character served as an amalgam of many people working on the power-up procedure.

Secondly, Ron Howard directed the hell out of the movie, and out of these scene in particular, and made it so watching a gauge is very involving. It's brilliant film-making. The crisis of the power-up is bracketed by the characters watching this gauge and making sure it stays under 20 amps, which, I guess, is all the power they have to work with.

So my question is that the solution that Mattingly devises doesn't seem to fit these bracketing scenes. They only have 20 amps. But his solution is to get more amps by pulling power from the LEM. Sure a lot will be lost in the transfer, but some power (they can't know how much) will be picked up and they can use it in the power-up. So if they are getting more than twenty amps to work with (some random amount from the LEM) why are they all watching the gauge to hope it doesn't go above 20. They will have the power, they don't need to stay below that power level. Also how does simulator simulate the power transfer.. it's a simulator with no LEM attached to it?

Thanks

 

[Trekker4747]

I think it was essentially a "this will work in theory, but we need to see if it'll work in practice" sort of thing, which is why they were so intent on making sure the gauge the didn't tick-over too high.

As for how they simulated the transfer? No clue, because if they had that much control over the simulators then they'd know whether or not the system could handle the power demands. Unless, again, things work out differently in practice than they do in theory/on paper.

I never understood why the order in which they clicked on the equipment needed to be fiddled with. Seems to me if you have, say, 10 things you need to turn on it doesn't matter what order you turn them on in they're going to draw the same amount of power.

It also seems to me that they could have cut back on power in other places, we see them click on the cabin lighting, for example, something I'm sure they could have saved on and just used whatever light was coming into the spacecraft from the sun and hand-held flashlights for lighting. Maybe not as bright or as covering as the interior lights, but when you need to save on power I'd think cutting some lights out here and there would have done it.

 

[sojourner]

The order of activation is important because a device may need to draw more power to be turned on than it does once it's running. If you have a couple devices that need 5 amps to activate but only 2 amps to run then activation order is going to be important.

 

[Trekker4747]

The order of activation is important because a device may need to draw more power to be turned on than it does once it's running. If you have a couple devices that need 5 amps to activate but only 2 amps to run then activation order is going to be important.

Ah, makes sense.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

The order of activation is important because a device may need to draw more power to be turned on than it does once it's running. If you have a couple devices that need 5 amps to activate but only 2 amps to run then activation order is going to be important.

I totally understood that. Indeed.


My only point is that the "movie solution" doesn't seem to fit their test simulation to see if it works.. despite making for a good scene dramatically and cinematically.

Mattingly came up with a wild, untested solutuion to draw the power they need from the LEM. Because we see them using the simulator after he said this idea, we can assume that is what they were testing. But the amount of power they would draw versus how much would be lost in the transfer would be random. And the simulators, while quite good, aren't actually connected to simulated LEMs, as far as I can tell. And if they are drawing a random amount of extra power (which would give them more to play with to help with the sequence of power-up) why would they need to watch the gauge to keep it below twenty amps?

 

[sojourner]

The order of activation is important because a device may need to draw more power to be turned on than it does once it's running. If you have a couple devices that need 5 amps to activate but only 2 amps to run then activation order is going to be important.

I totally understood that. Indeed.

Yeah, I was responding to Walkerbait.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I know, but I wanted to point out that it is an important point to consider. :-)


By the way, I truly love this film. I certainly didn't notice my little hang-up the first dozen times I watched it. I was into the drama.

My only thing is, that while I don't mind if a true story like this changes things from history to work in a movie, it still, for me, has to work in the film under it's own logic, because when I watch a film again and again, I want to be in the drama.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Is that whole business with the 20 amps meant to imply that the batteries will fry if the guage needle reaches that high? As I recall "John" just comes out and says it, "... if you see this gage go over 20" then it's over for the astronauts. He doesn't offer any reasoning behind it, other than just to give that as a warning. Whilst dramatic, it's also a headscratcher, because the drama is undermined by our ignorance of what the concern is. Anyway, it's my understanding that NASA always knew they were going to draw off the LEM, when they realised the mission was over. There was never any doubt that they would do this, or any concern about the process.

 

[JT Perfecthair]

One part you'll notice is different from Lovell's book to the movie: you will never become an astronaut if part of your response to fear and stress is to freak out and start punching the inside of the capsule. Never happened, but it is in the movie to help us 'relate' or something.

Its too bad, their calm and stoic readout of the numbers while the gas was still venting out around them was one of the coolest parts of the crisis.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Does anyone know who Max Groedenchik (Rom from DS9) plays in the film.. maybe with a screengrab or something?

 

[Trekker4747]

One part you'll notice is different from Lovell's book to the movie: you will never become an astronaut if part of your response to fear and stress is to freak out and start punching the inside of the capsule. Never happened, but it is in the movie to help us 'relate' or something.

Its too bad, their calm and stoic readout of the numbers while the gas was still venting out around them was one of the coolest parts of the crisis.

There's quite a bit that's different from the book and the real-world events. Lovell does a great job of pointing things like this out during his commentary with his wife on the DVD and BD of the movie. A great listen, one of few DVD commentaries I can listen to over and over again. He gives quite a bit of insight on what's happening in the movie from the technical standpoint and points out places where dramatic license won-over from real-world event; while, Marilyn gives nice insight onto the events she experienced on the ground.

Maybe the amps thing was another bit of dramatic license (it's been a while since I've watched the commentary so I don't recall if Lovell ever mentions this) along with things like the composite character version of Mattingly.

Only problem with that is, it'd require your audience, likely not knowledgeable on electrical terms, to understand things on some level beyond what we're told in "like blowing up a balloon!" speak. (Which isn't much, we don't have the benefit of a cabbage head character in the movie, everyone here is an expert and doesn't need things explained to them beyond "can't run a vacuum cleaner on that!" and "not enough power to run this coffee pot!")

My understanding was mostly that if they went over on amps they'd simply run out of power quicker than the time they had, they were looking to get into the "butter zone" of having everything they needed running, running but that it wasn't sucking away power so fast that they wouldn't make it to re-entry.

But, I dunno, maybe they were concerned about shorting something out or blowing something up (figuratively) by using too many amps.

But, to echo other posters, it probably is likely a little bit of dramatic license was taken when it came to making the power situation that much more tense or dramatic. It was certainly a concern but maybe not a "stare at the meter on the simulator with bated breath to see if the situation holds" level of concern.

ETA - This thread has prompted me to put in the BD of the movie and watch it again. Just a great, great movie.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

IT is a great Blue Ray, and a great commentary. Howard's commentary is just as insightful.

Again, I'm just trying to figure out what is happening even according to the film's own internal logic. If they are getting power from the LEM, why does it need to stay below 20? (if that wasn't the solution, then I could understand them knowing they only had 20 amps to work with in the simulations.) I also don't how they
d simulate (movie) Mattingly's solution.

 

[Mojochi]

Is that whole business with the 20 amps meant to imply that the batteries will fry if the guage needle reaches that high? As I recall "John" just comes out and says it, "... if you see this gage go over 20" then it's over for the astronauts. He doesn't offer any reasoning behind it, other than just to give that as a warning. Whilst dramatic, it's also a headscratcher, because the drama is undermined by our ignorance of what the concern is. Anyway, it's my understanding that NASA always knew they were going to draw off the LEM, when they realised the mission was over. There was never any doubt that they would do this, or any concern about the process.

Yeah, you're spot on there, I think. The needle was never really laid out specifically as to what the heck its peak level meant. That whole section of the film is largely dramatic license anyhow. Ken Mattingly was never in the simulator. 3 other guys did go in, but they did not, nor would they ever, solve any of the problems in there. They just did a dry run to iron out how they'd communicate the procedure.

In an interview I read, Mattingly talks about how the simulator scenes are a brilliant way to convey to the audience the technicals without being too heavy. In reality, all that stuff was pieced together.

Another interesting departure from the movie is that a lot of what the movie makes out to be invented procedures, they had actually run simulations on over the years, like drawing battery power from the LEM, and using the LEM as a lifeboat altogether, and even the CO2 scrubbers crisis, which in reality employed the on-board vacuum cleaner, and had been invented during sims for Apollo 8.

Of course, the situation was live and new, but they drew a lot of their solutions from vast amounts of knowledge & experience. It's still an amazing movie. There is NO way to capture to all

Check out the Mattingly interview transcript. It's pretty cool
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/oral_histories/MattinglyTK/MattinglyTK_11-6-01.htm

 

[diankra]

If I recall right - I think this comes from Henry Cooper's book Moonwreck/13: The Flight That Failed (different titles for hardback and paperback editions) - the problem was that the Command Module's re-entry batteries had been tapped to keep it working while they powered LM for lifeboat use.
So they had to recharge the CM's batteries using power from the LM for it to be able to make it through a longer-than-usual solo flight during re-entry, but the circuitry hadn't been designed to allow this; the circuits would only allow the CM to charge the LM, not the other way round (there were cut-outs to ensure that if there was a power surge in the LM batteries it couldn't be passed on to the CM systems and fry them too).
The solution was to start by bleeding a tiny amount of power from the CM batteries into the LM, and then reverse the flow, but without triggering the circuit breakers in the process.

 

[Trekker4747]

Makes sense.

As for "Rom", I believe he's the "FIDO" guy, the guy with the overly southern voice. During the launch sequence he's the one who sort-of smirk-replies about them losing the center engine with, "We'll be okay with don't lose another one."

Looking at more current pictures of Max and of the "FIDO" character in the movie I see similarities but present-day Max is, well.... Very weathered looking, we'll say.

But both are pretty tall, thin, men and have some facial similarities. It's hard to tell from the voice given in the movie he's doing a southern/Texas accent and in DS9 he was doing that dopey Ferengi/Rom voice. Not to mention the prosthetic makeup covering up most of his facial features and the couple-decades of space between this movie/DS9 and the present day pictures of the actor.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I can tell you one historical fact they got a little wrong...as I recall, one of the scenes has an astronaut's daughter crying about the Beatles breaking up while clutching a copy of the Let It Be album. While they got the timing of the breakup right (announced the day before the mission launched), that album wouldn't be released until the following month.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As for "Rom", I believe he's the "FIDO" guy, the guy with the overly southern voice. During the launch sequence he's the one who sort-of smirk-replies about them losing the center engine with, "We'll be okay with don't lose another one."

No, those are different characters.

The Southern guy is played by Ray McKinnon (most of you probably have seen The Stand - he's the soldier who escapes from the lab and spreads the disease in that film). Max's character shows up later in the film.

Both characters are 'FIDO' (Flight Dynamics Officers) but they have different shifts. The Southern guy is 'FIDO White' and Max is 'FIDO Gold'.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

As for "Rom", I believe he's the "FIDO" guy, the guy with the overly southern voice. During the launch sequence he's the one who sort-of smirk-replies about them losing the center engine with, "We'll be okay with don't lose another one."

No, those are different characters.

The Southern guy is played by Ray McKinnon (most of you probably have seen The Stand - he's the soldier who escapes from the lab and spreads the disease in that film). Max's character shows up later in the film.

Both characters are 'FIDO' (Flight Dynamics Officers) but they have different shifts. The Southern guy is 'FIDO White' and Max is 'FIDO Gold'.

So can someone point out FIDO gold? LOL?

 

[Trekker4747]

Both characters are 'FIDO' (Flight Dynamics Officers) but they have different shifts. The Southern guy is 'FIDO White' and Max is 'FIDO Gold'.

Yeah, as I've watched more of the movie someone stood out to me as looking much more like Max, he has the "early signs of [the] roughness" that present day pictures of the actor shows.

It happens shortly after the guys rip off their bio-med sensors and two men are talking to Kranz about the spacecraft shallowing in its trajectory. Max tells Kranz at the present rate the Odysssey will skip off Earth's atmosphere upon re-entry.

Very, very strong resemblance this guy. Pretty much jumped right out at me.

(Excuse the quality of the picture, I took it with my phone as I have no BD player on my computer for a proper screen grab and I don't feel like taking the time to find the clip on-line and certainly don't feel like taking the time to dig out the DVD, find the scene, and yadda yadda.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Max's *face* is recognizable when he appears onscreen (allowing for the lack of bad Ferengi teeth), but his voice is nothing like Rom's. He doesn't speak with a Southern accent, I know that much.

IIRC, Max is one of the people who's talking about the angle at which Apollo 13 is approaching Earth, and how if it's too shallow, the craft will bounce off the atmosphere, but if it's too steep, it'll burn up.

edit: ....Ninja'd by Trekker