No Vulcan main characters in TNG and DS9

[Nerys Myk]

And the first dozen times I heard it (well before "Encounter at Farpoint" aired, and before I saw it in print), I thought it was "O/A Team," which left me puzzling over what "O/A" stood for.


Actually, no; ultimately, it's a lift from the Talosians, and Gary Mitchell, and Elizabeth Dehner, and maybe also Charlie Evans.

Guest stars not regulars.

Though I’m sure they influenced Gene’s (or whomever) decision to make Spock an “esper”. Gene seemed quite taken with psychic powers. And given Spock’s popularity I’m not surprised an esper shows up in Phase II, TMP and TNG, combined with another of Gene’s “things” the sexually overpowering woman.

 

[Christopher]

Until one week after the two-hour pilot aired.

They gave themselves one episode that was a reflection of a TOS story, but unlike the modern shows, referencing past Trek was the exception rather than the rule. And "The Naked ____" was a good choice, because the premise is all about peeling back the characters' inhibitions so we can get to know their personalities and goals -- along the lines of the old saying that you don't really know someone until you've seen them drunk. "The Naked Time" laid so much groundwork for the characters -- Kirk's inner yearning to set aside responsibility and find love, Spock's suppressed emotions and outsider angst, Sulu's swashbuckling side, Chapel's crush on Spock. "The Naked Now" was an attempt to explore the TNG characters in the same way, which made sense in principle -- although in practice it tended to focus mostly on who wanted to have sex with whom, since Roddenberry wanted to take advantage of the more relaxed censorship of the '80s.

You give a Trek character telepathy (including empathy) type powers it’s a lift from Spock.

Actually, no; ultimately, it's a lift from the Talosians, and Gary Mitchell, and Elizabeth Dehner, and maybe also Charlie Evans.

It's a lift from decades' worth of prose science fiction in which telepathy was a frequent story device, thanks to influential editor John W. Campbell's strong interest and belief in psychic powers. Alfred Bester's The Demolished Man (1952) is one of the most influential novels about telepathy, which is why J. Michael Straczynski named Walter Koenig's Babylon 5 Psi-Cop character after Bester and drew on a lot of his ideas. Other influential works include A.E. Van Vogt's Slan (1940) and Theodore Sturgeon's More than Human (1953).

It's shortsighted to assume that the only possible precedents for ideas from TV are other ideas from TV. Everything in film/TV science fiction is ultimately derived from prose, usually lagging a decade or two behind the prose at least, and usually quite superficial and entry-level compared to what the prose is doing. Star Trek was so influenced by prose SF that Roddenberry actively sought out prose authors like Sturgeon, Norman Spinrad, Harlan Ellison, and the like to contribute to the show. (I think he tried to get Van Vogt too, but nothing came of it.) And David Gerrold had become a major prose SF novelist by the time he co-created TNG.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

We tend to assume that a similar thing in the same space inspired something, rather than casting our sights far afield at other seemingly unrelated earlier works.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They gave themselves one episode that was a reflection of a TOS story, but unlike the modern shows, referencing past Trek was the exception rather than the rule. And "The Naked ____" was a good choice, because the premise is all about peeling back the characters' inhibitions so we can get to know their personalities and goals -- along the lines of the old saying that you don't really know someone until you've seen them drunk. "The Naked Time" laid so much groundwork for the characters -- Kirk's inner yearning to set aside responsibility and find love, Spock's suppressed emotions and outsider angst, Sulu's swashbuckling side, Chapel's crush on Spock. "The Naked Now" was an attempt to explore the TNG characters in the same way, which made sense in principle -- although in practice it tended to focus mostly on who wanted to have sex with whom, since Roddenberry wanted to take advantage of the more relaxed censorship of the '80s.







It's a lift from decades' worth of prose science fiction in which telepathy was a frequent story device, thanks to influential editor John W. Campbell's strong interest and belief in psychic powers. Alfred Bester's The Demolished Man (1952) is one of the most influential novels about telepathy, which is why J. Michael Straczynski named Walter Koenig's Babylon 5 Psi-Cop character after Bester and drew on a lot of his ideas. Other influential works include A.E. Van Vogt's Slan (1940) and Theodore Sturgeon's More than Human (1953).

It's shortsighted to assume that the only possible precedents for ideas from TV are other ideas from TV. Everything in film/TV science fiction is ultimately derived from prose, usually lagging a decade or two behind the prose at least, and usually quite superficial and entry-level compared to what the prose is doing. Star Trek was so influenced by prose SF that Roddenberry actively sought out prose authors like Sturgeon, Norman Spinrad, Harlan Ellison, and the like to contribute to the show. (I think he tried to get Van Vogt too, but nothing came of it.) And David Gerrold had become a major prose SF novelist by the time he co-created TNG.

I'm sure we're all aware of this. Yes, Star Trek did not spring fully formed from the head of Gene. It often wears it's influences and ascendants on it's sleeve.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There was a whole episode about how Young Picard was such an asshole that Old Picard wanted to kill him. Or at least stand on "his" neck until the young man's "exuberance" cried uncle.

That's fine, but what if how his age found wizened maturity wasn't the sum of years of contemplation and experience? What if his final form came from a mind meld at a wedding, like a very hard to get rid of std?

 

[maneth]

I can honestly say that I didn't miss a Vulcan on either DS9 or TNG. There were plenty of other interesting species to explore, and as somebody upthread already said, Data and Odo served as the outsider characters in those shows

 

[The Wormhole]

It should be noted that all pilot episodes, at least for TOS through to Enterprise do include Vulcans. The Cage and WNMHGB have Spock. There are Vulcan background extras in Farpoint. The Captain of the Saratoga in Emissary is Vulcan. Caretaker has Tuvok and the Vulcan nurse. And in Broken Bow there's T'Pol, Soval and Ambassador Tos.

As for the modern shows, Disco's premiere has Sarek. I don't remember if there are any Vulcans in Picard's premiere or Lower Decks's. There's definitely none in Prodigy's, while SNW's has Spock and T'Pring.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Lower Decks' first episode has a bunch of Vulcans during the scenes where everyone's getting the zombie virus, but I don't recall spotting any in Picard's premiere. And even if I did, they'd probably be a Romulan!

 

[Noname Given]

Not exactly. The core TNG cast are basically reworkings of the Phase II/TMP characters, since Roddenberry recyled ideas a lot. Picard is the older, seasoned Kirk. Will Riker is Will Decker, the younger action lead and protege of the veteran captain. Troi is Ilia, the empathic alien with the romantic history with the first officer. (I'm convinced there's a Troy/Ilium pun in there.) Data is partly Xon, the unemotional science officer seeking to explore his emotions to gain a greater understanding of his human crewmates, but blended with the title character of Roddenberry's pilot movie The Questor Tapes, an android also seeking to learn about humanity. (Data was originally intended to have been built by advanced aliens, similar to Questor's origins.)

Data wasn't a rehash of Xon, he was a rehash of the Android from: The Questor Tapes

The Questor Tapes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A failed pilot Gene Roddenberry co wrote. But yeah he was a rehash of a GR character.

 

[Christopher]

Data wasn't a rehash of Xon, he was a rehash of the Android from: The Questor Tapes

As I said in the very post you quoted, he was both.

 

[Noname Given]

As I said in the very post you quoted, he was both.

No, I don't agree that he was both. He was 100% a rehash from the Questor Tapes, which is why I included the Wikipedia link to that pilot.

 

[Christopher]

No, I don't agree that he was both. He was 100% a rehash from the Questor Tapes, which is why I included the Wikipedia link to that pilot.

I'm the last person who needs to have The Questor Tapes fansplained to me, thank you very much. Seen it countless times, have the novelization on my shelf, own the DVD, had it on VHS for decades before I had the DVD, implicitly referenced it more than once in my professional Star Trek fiction.

The links between Data and Questor are extremely obvious, but the links to Xon are there also, because Xon was a young science officer eager to explore his emotional side and gain a greater understanding of his human crewmates. Given that Picard, Riker, and Troi are obviously based on Phase II's Kirk, Decker, and Ilia, it makes no sense to deny the fact that Data fits into that ensemble in the exact same way that Xon would have fit into his ensemble. And Xon and Questor overlap enough in concept that it's strange to treat them as mutually exclusive, rather than being variations on a theme Roddenberry explored more than once.

Heck, Questor himself was Roddenberry's third try at the Gary Seven premise (after the standalone half-hour pilot script and the Trek-episode backdoor pilot), just substituting an android for an augmented human. Roddenberry's planned series would've had Questor using advanced alien technology to help humans survive and advance, just like Gary Seven would have in the planned Assignment: Earth series. Roddenberry created Questor by combining elements of Gary Seven with the distinct concept of an android hero. So it seems disingenuous to deny that he could've created Data by combining elements of Questor and a different character.

This is how creativity usually works -- not by copying things "100%," but by combining different ingredients into a new mix. Star Trek itself was influenced by precedents as diverse as Horatio Hornblower, Wagon Train, and Forbidden Planet.

 

[Noname Given]

I'm the last person who needs to have The Questor Tapes fansplained to me, thank you very much. Seen it countless times, have the novelization on my shelf, own the DVD, had it on VHS for decades before I had the DVD, implicitly referenced it more than once in my professional Star Trek fiction.

The links between Data and Questor are extremely obvious, but the links to Xon are there also, because Xon was a young science officer eager to explore his emotional side and gain a greater understanding of his human crewmates. Given that Picard, Riker, and Troi are obviously based on Phase II's Kirk, Decker, and Ilia, it makes no sense to deny the fact that Data fits into that ensemble in the exact same way that Xon would have fit into his ensemble. And Xon and Questor overlap enough in concept that it's strange to treat them as mutually exclusive, rather than being variations on a theme Roddenberry explored more than once.

Heck, Questor himself was Roddenberry's third try at the Gary Seven premise (after the standalone half-hour pilot script and the Trek-episode backdoor pilot), just substituting an android for an augmented human. Roddenberry's planned series would've had Questor using advanced alien technology to help humans survive and advance, just like Gary Seven would have in the planned Assignment: Earth series. Roddenberry created Questor by combining elements of Gary Seven with the distinct concept of an android hero. So it seems disingenuous to deny that he could've created Data by combining elements of Questor and a different character.

This is how creativity usually works -- not by copying things "100%," but by combining different ingredients into a new mix. Star Trek itself was influenced by precedents as diverse as Horatio Hornblower, Wagon Train, and Forbidden Planet.

I don't need a 4 paragraph on the subject either just because my opinion differs from yours.

Believe it or not, I probably have a lot of the same stuff in my DVD collection as well

 

[suarezguy]

Spock was such a huge and iconic part of the first series it would feel too soon and too just also-there to have a new Vulcan officer as main cast member in the new series, inevitably too much comparison and found to be lacking in comparison. There could be recurring character but probably even that right away would not be good idea.

 

[kkt]

Star Trek itself was influenced by precedents as diverse as Horatio Hornblower, Wagon Train, and Forbidden Planet.

The Starfleet women's uniform skirts came from Forbidden Planet

 

[fireproof78]

Spock was such a huge and iconic part of the first series it would feel too soon and too just also-there to have a new Vulcan officer as main cast member in the new series, inevitably too much comparison and found to be lacking in comparison. There could be recurring character but probably even that right away would not be good idea.

*blinks in Xon*

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

He was intended to be a comparison with Spock, filling the exact position Spock occupied.

Having a new Vulcan character in TNG or DS9 filling a different or similar spot in an all new crew, as opposed to a new Vulcan character having Kirk and company surrounding him as they did Spock would feel different. You'd only be comparing him to Spock in the latter, whereas you'd be comparing all of them to their TOS counterparts in the former.

 

[fireproof78]

He was intended to be a comparison with Spock, filling the exact position Spock occupied.

Yes, but as a full Vulcan, so probably closer to Tuvok than anything else. So, I think, while comparisons are inevitable ( ) the potential is also there.

 

[Shawnster]

I was puzzled at first when TNG did not have a Vulcan as a main character. Maybe puzzled is the wrong word.

When DS9 came along I never gave it a thought. So I was pleasantly surprised when VOY introduced Tuvok.

Tuvok might be my favorite Vulcan. Well, after Spock of course.

Funny, after all this time which do we have more of as main or at least prominent characters? Vulcans or Klingons. Tuvok might be my favorite Vulcan but what other options do I have besides T'Pol? We really didn't get enough of M'gel or T'lynn.

 

[tomalak301]

I didn't know it was a prerequisite to have a Vulcan in TNG. DS9 did have a Vulcan officer on the Saratoga, but TNG going for a Klingon rather than a Vulcan series regular was a pretty good choice.