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No Vulcan main characters in TNG and DS9

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How did you feel about it when you first watched TNG and DS9? Did you miss the Vulcans?
I admit first I was dissapointed when after TNG in DS9 again there was no Vulcan main character.
Later all the brilliant characters in DS9 made up for it. But I still think with a Vulcan it would have been even better.
Often I read Data and Odo are similar to Spock but I don't really agree about that and they are no Vulcans in the end.
Looking forward to your opinions about it...
 
I didn't think about it really.

100 years later, plenty of other unique species have joined Starfleet. Vulcans or whatever alien species figure prominently in a Trek series are an "other" (than humans) to explore; one species is as good as another for that, with each having their own unique qualities and parallels to other human groups. If humans are a stand-in for the show's audience (mostly Americans), alien species, both allies and enemies, represent other countries.
 
Roddenbery's goal in TNG was to create something new and different, something that wasn't a rehash of the original series. So he avoided anything that would've felt like a repetition of things TOS had already done. He had to be talked into including a Klingon character at all, though at least making the Klingon a good guy was interestingly different.

And really, TNG's creators were wise to avoid a Vulcan character. Spock was such an overpowering presence in TOS that any new Vulcan character would've been in his shadow and would probably have been judged negatively in comparison.
 
How did you feel about it when you first watched TNG and DS9? Did you miss the Vulcans?
I admit first I was dissapointed when after TNG in DS9 again there was no Vulcan main character.
Later all the brilliant characters in DS9 made up for it. But I still think with a Vulcan it would have been even better.
Often I read Data and Odo are similar to Spock but I don't really agree about that and they are no Vulcans in the end.
Looking forward to your opinions about it...
No I didn't.

Data and Odo are the outsiders who can comment on human society, the same as Spock. That's where they are similar. Worf and Quark also fill that role. Data is also a flipped Spock, looking to be more human. TNG took Spock and split him into two characters: Spock and Troi. Similarly, Kirk was split into Picard and Riker.
 
Data is also a flipped Spock, looking to be more human. TNG took Spock and split him into two characters: Spock and Troi. Similarly, Kirk was split into Picard and Riker.

Not exactly. The core TNG cast are basically reworkings of the Phase II/TMP characters, since Roddenberry recyled ideas a lot. Picard is the older, seasoned Kirk. Will Riker is Will Decker, the younger action lead and protege of the veteran captain. Troi is Ilia, the empathic alien with the romantic history with the first officer. (I'm convinced there's a Troy/Ilium pun in there.) Data is partly Xon, the unemotional science officer seeking to explore his emotions to gain a greater understanding of his human crewmates, but blended with the title character of Roddenberry's pilot movie The Questor Tapes, an android also seeking to learn about humanity. (Data was originally intended to have been built by advanced aliens, similar to Questor's origins.)
 
Data was originally intended to have been built by advanced aliens, similar to Questor's origins.
Yes, as I recall, the original backstory (published in Starlog, maybe?) was that the advanced aliens had built him to atone for accidentally destroying the colony where he was found. Of course, then Robert Lewin had a better idea. Which is why nothing is canon until it appears in a finished episode, not even if the Great Bird Himself said it.

blended with the title character of Roddenberry's pilot movie The Questor Tapes, an android also seeking to learn about humanity

And that comparison (and "The Naked Now") always takes me back to the "Inside Star Trek" record album (I have it in vinyl, and no, that's not a boast, just a statement of fact, and an indication of how long I've had it), specifically this track.
 
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Not exactly. The core TNG cast are basically reworkings of the Phase II/TMP characters, since Roddenberry recyled ideas a lot. Picard is the older, seasoned Kirk. Will Riker is Will Decker, the younger action lead and protege of the veteran captain. Troi is Ilia, the empathic alien with the romantic history with the first officer. (I'm convinced there's a Troy/Ilium pun in there.) Data is partly Xon, the unemotional science officer seeking to explore his emotions to gain a greater understanding of his human crewmates, but blended with the title character of Roddenberry's pilot movie The Questor Tapes, an android also seeking to learn about humanity. (Data was originally intended to have been built by advanced aliens, similar to Questor's origins.)
True. I didn't mean to imply they were only that. But I feel Riker, Decker and younger Kirk are cut from the same cloth. With Troi, I'm referring to her psionic powers and half human ancestry, which are a lift from Spock. Xon is also a flipped Spock.
 
Yes, as I recall, the original backstory (published in Starlog, maybe?) was that the advanced aliens had built him to atone for accidentally destroying the colony where he was found. Of course, then Robert Lewin had a better idea.

I question "better." "Datalore" didn't really make any sense, a casualty of the sloppy writing in season 1 -- nobody knows where Data came from, yet everyone's heard of Dr. Noonian Soong, the only roboticist who believed a positronic brain like Data's could work? If they knew about Soong's theories already, shouldn't it have been obvious from the start that Data was his work? Which was made far, far stupider in retrospect when "Brothers" established that Data looked exactly like the young Soong.

Also, the original idea was that Data had the memories of the dead colonists stored inside him -- not just their journals as in "Silicon Avatar," but their actual memories, maybe even their personalities. That was a potentially rich and fascinating element that was completely abandoned.


True. I didn't mean to imply they were only that. But I feel Riker, Decker and younger Kirk are cut from the same cloth.

Yes, that was the intent in Phase II, that Decker was a "younger Kirk" that the more mature Kirk would take under his wing and mentor, the way Picard was intended to be the mentor for action-hero Riker before Patrick Stewart broke out and became more the center of attention.

See, David Gerrold (who co-created TMP but was robbed of credit for it) had argued in his nonfiction book The World of Star Trek that it made no sense for the captain of the ship to be the action hero leading the away missions, so he advocated for focusing on a specialized "contact team" of junior officers that would handle the dangers while the captain stayed behind. The original intent in TNG, before Stewart stole the show, was that the Kirk-like action hero would be the first officer this time, and the captain would be a more passive mentor/advisor figure.



With Troi, I'm referring to her psionic powers and half human ancestry, which are a lift from Spock. Xon is also a flipped Spock.

No, Troi's empathic powers are a lift from Ilia, as I said. Riker & Troi's backstory and relationship are exactly the same as Decker & Ilia's, and even their names are similar, as are the names of the characters' home planets (Delta IV and Betazed, both derived from Greek letters). We saw little of Ilia's empathic powers in TMP (basically only when she eased Chekov's pain), but they would've been a major part of her character in Phase II. Also TNG: "The Child" was rewritten from a Phase II script, substituting Troi for Ilia. And the bit about nude Betazoid weddings in "Haven" was an echo of the sexual openness the Deltans were intended to have.

I'll concede that the idea of Troi being half-human is recycled from Spock. But that's the only thing that is.

I wouldn't call Xon a "flipped Spock" so much as a contrast to Spock, though it's a subtle distinction.
 
Also, the original idea was that Data had the memories of the dead colonists stored inside him -- not just their journals as in "Silicon Avatar," but their actual memories, maybe even their personalities. That was a potentially rich and fascinating element that was completely abandoned.

Joined Trills retain memories of hosts who likely didn't know each other in life, but imagine the conflicting impulses of a society with different opinions who knew each other, all in one person. He could call on any one of them at any time to dominate his personality when needed for the mission, perhaps.
 
I noted the lack of Vulcans and was initially pretty disappointed by it, but honestly I like the characters, particularly the different sorts of aliens, in both shows enough that the lack of Vulcans doesn't really bug me anymore.
 
I question "better."
I'm not entirely convinced, either, and you raise some valid points about elements of "Datalore" that don't make any sense. But evidently somebody was convinced that it was a better idea. And managed to convince the Great Bird of the Galaxy that it was a better idea.
 
It's the nature of series bibles that their ideas are just suggestions, meant to spark creativity rather than limit it, so they can always be abandoned or ignored by a show's writers. I think calling them "bibles" gives a misleading sense of their authority.

There's a lot in the first edition of the TNG bible that got abandoned or ignored -- Data's name rhyming with "that-a," Riker being prejudiced against androids, Geordi being liaison with the ship's children (probably teaching them about the joy of reading, I shouldn't wonder), the "tell me/show me" protocol for making requests of the ship's computer, etc.
 
The original intent in TNG, before Stewart stole the show, was that the Kirk-like action hero would be the first officer this time, and the captain would be a more passive mentor/advisor figure.
I remember that, too. To invoke another action-adventure TV series, it was kind of like "Picard was Admiral Nelson; Riker was Captain Crane." Except that as I recall (and it's probably been well over 3 decades since I last saw an episode of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea), that relationship didn't stay "top guy stays on board, second banana leads the expeditions," either.

And I remember "Away Team" originally meaning a standing group of specialists, not an ad-hoc group and a general synonym for "landing/boarding party."

Until one week after the two-hour pilot aired.:thumbdown:
Hey! I liked "The Naked Now." Especially the part about Data being "fully functional" and "programmed in multiple techniques."
 
I question "better." "Datalore" didn't really make any sense, a casualty of the sloppy writing in season 1 -- nobody knows where Data came from, yet everyone's heard of Dr. Noonian Soong, the only roboticist who believed a positronic brain like Data's could work? If they knew about Soong's theories already, shouldn't it have been obvious from the start that Data was his work? Which was made far, far stupider in retrospect when "Brothers" established that Data looked exactly like the young Soong.

Also, the original idea was that Data had the memories of the dead colonists stored inside him -- not just their journals as in "Silicon Avatar," but their actual memories, maybe even their personalities. That was a potentially rich and fascinating element that was completely abandoned.




Yes, that was the intent in Phase II, that Decker was a "younger Kirk" that the more mature Kirk would take under his wing and mentor, the way Picard was intended to be the mentor for action-hero Riker before Patrick Stewart broke out and became more the center of attention.

See, David Gerrold (who co-created TMP but was robbed of credit for it) had argued in his nonfiction book The World of Star Trek that it made no sense for the captain of the ship to be the action hero leading the away missions, so he advocated for focusing on a specialized "contact team" of junior officers that would handle the dangers while the captain stayed behind. The original intent in TNG, before Stewart stole the show, was that the Kirk-like action hero would be the first officer this time, and the captain would be a more passive mentor/advisor figure.





No, Troi's empathic powers are a lift from Ilia, as I said. Riker & Troi's backstory and relationship are exactly the same as Decker & Ilia's, and even their names are similar, as are the names of the characters' home planets (Delta IV and Betazed, both derived from Greek letters). We saw little of Ilia's empathic powers in TMP (basically only when she eased Chekov's pain), but they would've been a major part of her character in Phase II. Also TNG: "The Child" was rewritten from a Phase II script, substituting Troi for Ilia. And the bit about nude Betazoid weddings in "Haven" was an echo of the sexual openness the Deltans were intended to have.

I'll concede that the idea of Troi being half-human is recycled from Spock. But that's the only thing that is.

I wouldn't call Xon a "flipped Spock" so much as a contrast to Spock, though it's a subtle distinction.
You give a Trek character telepathy (including empathy) type powers it’s a lift from Spock.
 
But whenever Picard murmured thoe words it always sounded like ''way team'' to me. As if they thought themselves extra-cool.:borg:
And the first dozen times I heard it (well before "Encounter at Farpoint" aired, and before I saw it in print), I thought it was "O/A Team," which left me puzzling over what "O/A" stood for.

You give a Trek character telepathy (including empathy) type powers it’s a lift from Spock.
Actually, no; ultimately, it's a lift from the Talosians, and Gary Mitchell, and Elizabeth Dehner, and maybe also Charlie Evans.
 
And the first dozen times I heard it (well before "Encounter at Farpoint" aired, and before I saw it in print), I thought it was "O/A Team," which left me puzzling over what "O/A" stood for.
The time has truly come for landing dance parties.....the moment they materialize. How better to improve THE APPLE and others?
 
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