I am watching DS9 for the first time (some observations)

[DonIago]

I must admit that I find the scenario in the episode highly realistic.

Haven't you read about all those crazy cults, like Jim Jones and Jonestown where people were so brainwashed that they drank poison because Jim Jones told them to do so?

I thinkt that the story in "Paradise" tells a similar story. The whole population has become a cult, led by a ruthless fanatic who stops at nothing to preserve the "paradise" and her followers don't dare to question her decisions.

The comparision with Voyager is a bit unfair since Voyager is no cult like that one in "Paradise" but a ship trying to find a way home. As long as this goal for the crew existed, that was enough for the crew members to stay on the ship.

The alternative should have been to jump of somewhere along the road, spending the rest of their lives with the Kazon, the Sikaris or "The 37's". Maybe not the best option, OK I'm a little surprised that no one stayed on "The 37's" planet but in that case a great moment of Voyager would have missed itäs mark, the moment when Janeway and Chakotay are going to the cargo bay to say goodbye to those who wanted to leave and there's no one there.

However, there is an excellent Voyager book called "The Black Shore", written by Greg Cox which takes place in the beginning of season 3, according to my calculations.

Voyager arrives to the planet which are inhabited by a small but very nice and friendly population. Wonderful people, wonderful place, a sunny beach and some crewmembers are actually considering to stay there. Until some of them starts to notice small things which give hints about something which isn't what it should be....................

Read it, if you get the opportunity! Very exciting!

Yeah, but crazy cults and sheeple in general also piss me off. Maybe I'm overestimating my own ability to resist cult tactics, but I'd like to think that at the end of the episode I would have jumped at the chance to get off that planet if I found out the only reason I was there was because I was forced to be there.

The comparison to VOY may be a bit unfair, but I think there may be some argument to be made that the way the show depicts things, Janeway to some degree established a Cult of Personality among her crew. Not intentionally, I think, but you noted some surprise yourself that nobody wanted to stay with "The 37s", and I'm sure there might have been other points along the way where someone wanted off the ship. Whether or not they actually left isn't even the point, it's the expression of despair or frustration that would have mattered.

Lest you think I'm singling VOY out, I think the same might be said for Picard and the E-D in the sense that he established fierce loyalty from his crew, though they obviously faced less adverse circumstances. I'm less sure we saw such behavior with regards to the other captains.

 

[kkt]

DSC had a good 2-part pilot but I could see how it seems isolated from the rest of the series. Episode 3 grabbed me and it never let go. I now consider "Context is for Kings" a modern Trek classic. It was light years better than the first couple of seasons of DS9.

DS9 is somewhat inconsistent and has a lot of filler (unlike DSC) but it's very worthwhile. Trekkies who skipped it the first time around will eventually get through to some really good episodes and some good mini-arcs. I rank the show 3rd overall out of the best Trek series.

RAMA

So as long as we're comparing, what do you rate as the 1st and 2nd best shows in Star Trek?

 

[Paul755]

DS9 is somewhat inconsistent and has a lot of filler (unlike DSC) but it's very worthwhile. Trekkies who skipped it the first time around will eventually get through to some really good episodes and some good mini-arcs. I rank the show 3rd overall out of the best Trek series.

RAMA

The “filler” thing is just a result of DS9 having 26 episodes a season. DSC’s entire run is just 29.

Plus the filler episodes help build up and fill out the characters. I think part of my problem with Discovery is that there is so little character development.

 

[Lynx]

Yeah, but crazy cults and sheeple in general also piss me off. Maybe I'm overestimating my own ability to resist cult tactics, but I'd like to think that at the end of the episode I would have jumped at the chance to get off that planet if I found out the only reason I was there was because I was forced to be there.

The comparison to VOY may be a bit unfair, but I think there may be some argument to be made that the way the show depicts things, Janeway to some degree established a Cult of Personality among her crew. Not intentionally, I think, but you noted some surprise yourself that nobody wanted to stay with "The 37s", and I'm sure there might have been other points along the way where someone wanted off the ship. Whether or not they actually left isn't even the point, it's the expression of despair or frustration that would have mattered.

Lest you think I'm singling VOY out, I think the same might be said for Picard and the E-D in the sense that he established fierce loyalty from his crew, though they obviously faced less adverse circumstances. I'm less sure we saw such behavior with regards to the other captains.

I don't like cults either. They unfortunately exist and I could imagine that such things could show up in the 24th century in situations like the stranded people on the "Paradise" planet faced. A perfect breeding ground for a crazy leader with extreme ideas.

As for Picard and Janeway, and even Sisko I guess, there's the fact that good leaders got followers. I had worked under such people myself and when something extra has to be done, then you do the work because you respect that person and knows that what the person suggests and wants is good for you, the team, the company and whatsoever.

As for Voyager, as I wrote before, the common goal of getting home was the most motivating factor in why the crew decided to stay on the ship.

In the Voyager book "Cybersong" there's actually one Starfleet crew member who leaves with Janeway's permission.

Spoiler

Ensign Daphne Mandel who had a somewhat twisted personality wanted to stay with an AI Voyager encountered to make the dangerous AI grow up and develope into a responsible being.

There were actually some other crewmembers who left Voyager too but going into that would take this too far out of topic and my opinion is that it was more the result of very bad writing than realistic scenarios there.

Spoiler

Kes's exit in season 4 and Neelix's exit in season 7 were downright ridiculous. More examples of bad writing and wanting to get rid of certain characters than good storytelling. Even the Mandel case in the book "Cybersong" was better done.

 

[CRM-114]

The “filler” thing is just a result of DS9 having 26 episodes a season. DSC’s entire run is just 29.

Plus the filler episodes help build up and fill out the characters. I think part of my problem with Discovery is that there is so little character development.

YES. This is one of my issues with DSC and PIC. The character development often felt lacking.

 

[Tosk]

I reject the idea of calling DS9 episodes "filler" in the first place. It's not filler to tell a story that lasts for just one episode. Is 96% of TNG filler?

...that's not to say every episode is good. But that's not the same thing.

 

[Jonesy]

In the conversations I've seen, there is definitely a similar effect on DS9. Season 1 is widely considered to have some of the worst episodes of the series and many people will tell those who are new to the series that 'it really gets going in season 2 (or even 3)'.

However, it is definitely much less widespread and DS9 season 1 also contains a few episodes DS9 fans largely consider classics, so it is still almost certainly the best received first season of all the spin-offs. It's just that it's the best by degrees, not the best by being considered fundamentally good/great from the outset.

I would debate that pretty heavily. While Season 1 of TNG had some awful stinkers, like DS9 did, It also had "Where No One Has Gone Before", "The Big Goodbye", and to a lesser extent, "11001001" and "Skin of Evil". Season 1 of DS9 has one single noteworthy (in a good way) episode outside of the pilot, and that's "Duet". And this comes from a fan who likes both shows pretty much equally. Things picked up for both shows from season 2 onwards, thankfully.

 

[Tosk]

It's hard to compare TNG and DS9's first seasons directly. TNG arguably had more episodes that were good than DS9, but it also had far more outright garbage. (IMO, naturally.) For the most part, DS9's first season was just unremarkable (with some junk, to be sure), whereas a big chunk of TNG's first was truly painful to sit through. TNG also had six more episodes than DS9, for what it's worth.

Things picked up for both shows from season 2 onwards, thankfully.

Very.

 

[DonIago]

I would debate that pretty heavily. While Season 1 of TNG had some awful stinkers, like DS9 did, It also had "Where No One Has Gone Before", "The Big Goodbye", and to a lesser extent, "11001001" and "Skin of Evil". Season 1 of DS9 has one single noteworthy (in a good way) episode outside of the pilot, and that's "Duet". And this comes from a fan who likes both shows pretty much equally. Things picked up for both shows from season 2 onwards, thankfully.

You don't consider "In the Hands of the Prophets" noteworthy even though it introduces two significant recurring characters?

 

[Farscape One]

Actually, TNG had 2 more episodes than DS9. If the WGA didn't strike during season 2 of TNG, they would have ended up with 6 more than DS9. (TNG did end up with 6 more than VOYAGER, though.)

It is a little unfair to compare the two series' first season for several reasons.

1. The premise was quite different. A ship coming and going every episode vs. a station that is the same place having the adventure come to them.

2. The writing staff turnaround of TNG's first season is almost legendary. The only series that comes close to this level of a revolving door of writers is DSC season 1. DS9, on the other hand, had very little change of their writing staff during its entire run. (Which I think was a big reason why it remained so consistently great.)

3. TNG season 1, for all intents and purposes, was the beginning of the new era for the franchise. It had to do trial and error a lot more than DS9, I think. When DS9 came around, TNG was in season 6, Piller had been there for years, and Berman had a better grasp of how to find and hire the right help in the various areas. In other words, the learning curve for DS9 wasn't as large.

4. DS9's best early episodes were the ones that utilized its premise the most. The ones that could have been TNG episodes with minor tinkering are the ones that are not as great.


There's other factors that separate the two shows, but I think those are the major ones. All that being said, I personally enjoy BOTH first seasons a lot... maybe more than most people, honestly. But I will say of the two, my favorite is DS9's.(Shocker, eh?)

A side note regarding my reasoning... both shows premiered and impacted me in very different ways. With TNG and Data in particular, it made me a STAR TREK and scifi fan. With DS9, it premiered mere months after Hurricane Andrew hit us (We live in Miami in a part that's just above Homestead, which got completely flattened. We got the full eye of the storm... very scary for a 13 year old.) We didn't have power for months except with a generator. When DS9 premiered, I could barely see it on the tv because the signal was so bad... but it hooked me enough because of the story and how different and alive the characters were from the jump. DS9 ended up being my favorite escape from the chaos and rebuilding around me... which was an interesting coincidence, as that was also dealing with rebuilding Bajor after the Occupation. TNG still was a big escape for me, too, but we were old friends at this point... DS9 was the new friend you were getting to know who came into your life at a time of need.

Both shows will always remain near and dear to me.

(With the rebuilding comparison... 27 years later, and it was only JUST NOW that I realized that. It's amazing the things that hit you suddenly.)

 

[Tosk]

Actually, TNG had 2 more episodes than DS9.

TNG had 25, DS9 had 19.

The ones that could have been TNG episodes with minor tinkering are the ones that are not as great.

And yet Duet could easily have been a TNG episode (using Ro instead of Kira) with the most minimal of changes.

 

[Farscape One]

TNG had 25, DS9 had 19.

I was going by the total of the series. But yes, TNG did have 6 more than DS9 in their respective season 1... though it was 26 and 20, since the pilots were considered two episodes, production code-wise. (I tend to go by that, for various reasons.)

 

[Tosk]

though it was 26 and 20

Either way, six more.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I would debate that pretty heavily. While Season 1 of TNG had some awful stinkers, like DS9 did, It also had "Where No One Has Gone Before", "The Big Goodbye", and to a lesser extent, "11001001" and "Skin of Evil". Season 1 of DS9 has one single noteworthy (in a good way) episode outside of the pilot, and that's "Duet". And this comes from a fan who likes both shows pretty much equally. Things picked up for both shows from season 2 onwards, thankfully.

From my pov, none of those TNG episodes are particularly good. They only look good in comparison to the absolute shit that is the rest of TNG season 1. And Skin of Evil doesn't even have that, for me. It's just bad.

 

[CRM-114]

I'm trying to plug away through Season 2 as soon as possible. I'm partway through "Rules of Acquisition".

As of June 11, 2020, I am still in Season Two. I still haven't finished "Paradise".

 

[DonIago]

I won't reiterate my views on "Paradise".

 

[somebuddyX]

I always have a soft spot for this season because it's the last season where I didn't know want was going to happen before the episodes had even aired here. It's also fun seeing the birth of some of the arcs that would last the whole show. I've still never seen Shadowplay though.

 

[Qonundrum]

I must admit that I find the scenario in the episode highly realistic.

Ditto

Haven't you read about all those crazy cults, like Jim Jones and Jonestown where people were so brainwashed that they drank poison because Jim Jones told them to do so?

Or the Moonies, et al. If this were a pure allegory to cults, it was a couple decades late to the party.

I thinkt that the story in "Paradise" tells a similar story. The whole population has become a cult, led by a ruthless fanatic who stops at nothing to preserve the "paradise" and her followers don't dare to question her decisions.

Except she was presented as being sincere and there was no significant undercurrent of deception (just hiding old technology and if I recall how Sisko and O'Brien were forced into landing?) She didn't seem like a Jonesy type.

And if Sisko were the analogue of Leo Ryan, I didn't see it. But it's nice to have some twists than a by-the-numbers remake, of which many real life shows utilized.

The comparision with Voyager is a bit unfair since Voyager is no cult like that one in "Paradise" but a ship trying to find a way home. As long as this goal for the crew existed, that was enough for the crew members to stay on the ship.

It's an interesting association but not a complete one. Janeway wasn't like Jones either. But imagine a parallel world where she orders Neelix to learn how to program the replicators and then to have them make a very special grape drink...

VOY missed the opportunity to have a Maquee claim she was a cult leader and run around causing havoc... or even Chakotay and others as they all folded in under Captain Janeway as fast as they all had (though for that, the thought of being stranded in the Delta quadrant was enough and that's why they managed to get along so fast...? Even then, the occasional angst would not hurt.)

The alternative should have been to jump of somewhere along the road, spending the rest of their lives with the Kazon, the Sikaris or "The 37's". Maybe not the best option, OK I'm a little surprised that no one stayed on "The 37's" planet but in that case a great moment of Voyager would have missed itäs mark, the moment when Janeway and Chakotay are going to the cargo bay to say goodbye to those who wanted to leave and there's no one there.

Agreed

However, there is an excellent Voyager book called "The Black Shore", written by Greg Cox which takes place in the beginning of season 3, according to my calculations.

Voyager arrives to the planet which are inhabited by a small but very nice and friendly population. Wonderful people, wonderful place, a sunny beach and some crewmembers are actually considering to stay there. Until some of them starts to notice small things which give hints about something which isn't what it should be....................

Read it, if you get the opportunity! Very exciting!

Interesting, I'll check it out too - thanks for namedropping!

 

[Lynx]

As of June 11, 2020, I am still in Season Two. I still haven't finished "Paradise".

Oh, they did get you, didn't they?

The cult leader on the planet has brainwashed you and now you have no intention to leave "Paradise". No matter what happen to you in the "Gray Universe" (which is what a relative of mine used to call the world and universe we are actually living in, in contrasty to the Star Trek Universe), in the Star trek Universe, you will remain on the planet forever!

As The Eagles sing in Hotel California: "You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave".

I know how you feel because I'm stuck in a timeloop which ends with the Voyager episode "Worst Case Scenario". When it ends, I'm back at TNG.s "Encounter At Farpoint" with a lot of TNG, DS9 and Voyager ahead of me.

But I like it!

And as Sisko said to The Prophets in "Emissary":
I exist here!

 

[StarMan]

As of June 11, 2020, I am still in Season Two. I still haven't finished "Paradise".

Honestly - at this stage I think you should just jump straight to The Jem'Hadar. So far as I'm concerned, the end of season 2 / start of season 3 is when DS9 really kicks off.

The first couple of seasons were in the shadow of TNG and they struggled to find their footing. But with season 3, the series had worked thru it's teething issues and had a new found sense of confidence in it's direction.

Go back and revisit the latter part of season 2 once you've got the spark back. You won't miss out on much. What the series ended up producing is leagues ahead of anything Kurtzman and his gang have slapped together.

I'd hate to see you give the series up right before it came into it's own.