How big was the Enterprise?

[blssdwlf]

Actually, since it's quite relevant to the thread and maybe useful for other posters, it's worth showing them again.

Mistakes or not, they appear on screen, so dismiss at leisure if background graphics arent sufficient. As with most canon evidence for the 442m length and the 289m length, none of it is ever seen with 100% clarity, but are still valid discussion points.

USS Cayuga with "TOS" dimensions, which would be odd for such a squat ship and its slanted nacelle struts.

USS Peregrine.

You'll note with the Peregrine that it contains a mix of dimensions for a larger and a smaller craft. Taken as gospel, this would be one ugly and clunky ship.

I DARE someone to try and draw it with those numbers!!

LOL, Peregrine is 442 meters WIDE?

I've watched SNW and don't recall those numbers to be visible for Cayuga or Peregrine. Which episode is the Cayuga graphic from?

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Isn't there a SNW episode where a Constitution-class starship crashlanded relatively intact? Was that S1 or S2, and did they spend a lot of time on the shipwreck, or was it just a scary scene or two?

 

[Daedalus]

LOL, Peregrine is 442 meters WIDE?

I've watched SNW and don't recall those numbers to be visible for Cayuga or Peregrine. Which episode is the Cayuga graphic from?

It's very amusing . The saucer and nacelle dimensions are straight from the old technical manual, and the secondary hull is reflective of Eaves' design lol.

Hegemony is the episode, you can make out the numbers depending on how you view it.

 

[Daedalus]

Isn't there a SNW episode where a Constitution-class starship crashlanded relatively intact? Was that S1 or S2, and did they spend a lot of time on the shipwreck, or was it just a scary scene or two?

Same episode I mentioned. It's technically a Sombra class, which is a cheaper utility version of the Constitution made with many of the same parts.

 

[HotRod]

Which episode is the Cayuga graphic from?

The final episode of season 2. Timothy Pool, the guy responsible for on screen graphics, posted them on Twitter.

He also posted the graphic with the corrected numbers.

Isn't there a SNW episode where a Constitution-class starship crashlanded relatively intact? Was that S1 or S2, and did they spend a lot of time on the shipwreck, or was it just a scary scene or two?

Yes, near the end of season 1. Most of the episode was spent on the USS Peregrine, a Sombra class ship. The Sombra was said to be built out of Constitution components but with a smaller crew and faster, if I remember correctly.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

The final episode of season 2. Timothy Pool, the guy responsible for on screen graphics, posted them on Twitter.

He also posted the graphic with the corrected numbers.

Yes, near the end of season 1. Most of the episode was spent on the USS Peregrine, a Sombra class ship. The Sombra was said to be built out of Constitution components but with a smaller crew and faster, if I remember correctly.

Thank you, something to look forward to. Visually, Constitution and Sombra are basically the same thing? Is it kind of like how we had variations of the Miranda-class that would technically be different classes but were all basically the same?

 

[blssdwlf]

Checking SNW S1E9 All Those Who Wonder and SNW S2E10 Hegemony and it doesn't look like we are able to see any of the numbers. These behind-the-scenes diagrams could be completely wrong in measurements and I don't think you would be able read it in the episode. *Unless someone here as better screenshots or the timecode for when you can read them.

But Daedeaus is correct that if you try to apply the TMOST Enterprise dimensions to the SNW Enterprise/Cayuga/Peregrine you will get something very out of whack

 

[Daedalus]

I had this saved...like I save most of the stuff Jörg Hillebrand posts (sorry if you're here Jörg...big fan)

It's better, but not perfect. It's like the graphic from the DSC episode "Brothers", catch it at the right angle and you can make out some of it.

 

[blssdwlf]

I had this saved...like I save most of the stuff Jörg Hillebrand posts (sorry if you're here Jörg...big fan)

It's better, but not perfect. It's like the graphic from the DSC episode "Brothers", catch it at the right angle and you can make out some of it.

Wow, is that from 4K screenshot (mine are 1080p)? I'm thinking that it is lucky for the dimensions to not be clear enough to easily read otherwise the dimensions won't really make any sense

 

[Daedalus]

Wow, is that from 4K screenshot (mine are 1080p)? I'm thinking that it is lucky for the dimensions to not be clear enough to easily read otherwise the dimensions won't really make any sense

I really couldn't say, but its quite likely. I guess we just have to strain our eyeballs to see these things.

Earlier in the thread, a post included a monitor display with the Enterprise and D7 shown in The Enterprise Incident, and much like yourself, I had to go and watch the episode. It could see it quite well, but it also wasn't perfect.

I guess any excuse to rewatch Star Trek?

 

[blssdwlf]

I really couldn't say, but its quite likely. I guess we just have to strain our eyeballs to see these things.

Earlier in the thread, a post included a monitor display with the Enterprise and D7 shown in The Enterprise Incident, and much like yourself, I had to go and watch the episode. It could see it quite well, but it also wasn't perfect.

I guess any excuse to rewatch Star Trek?

Yes, any excuse to rewatch Star Trek

It is funny that where we can see the numbers in HD it is usually a different ship design than what is actual and in TOS' case where it is TV resolution we can't tell the ship design is different but also can't read the numbers

 

[CaptChris42]

I know we've wondered off topic, but I just googled the words "Excelsior class length" and the first thing I saw was 511.25 metres. Did somebody already mention where that came from?

I'm stuffed up with a heavy head cold, and I haven't the energy to look at my old reference guides, but I think that's what most people will now see if they're ever curious. Better size, or no?

The Deep Space Nine Tech Manual, yeah. It probably happened from mis-scaling the ship size chart from the Star Trek Encylopedia, too.

That's also the source of the Romulan Warbird at 1041 metres, instead of 1200-1300 plus.

That said, 511 metres does add a bit more volume and deck height to the Excelsior (which the ship likely could benefit from...)

 

[Tomalak]

Aren’t the DS9 TM scales what the visual effects team used? I always thought they rendered the Romulan Warbird too small in those DS9 fleet battles.

 

[blssdwlf]

Aren’t the DS9 TM scales what the visual effects team used? I always thought they rendered the Romulan Warbird too small in those DS9 fleet battles.

I think so. Speaking of DS9 TM scales... if you look up the Miranda-class in the DS9 TM it is listed as beam of 173m which is a bit wider than the described 305m movie Enterprise which would have a beam of 142m. If the increase was applied to to the TMP Enterprise it would increase to 371m and the TOS Enterprise's 289m to 352m...

 

[Mudd]

Speaking of Matt's drawing of the Enterprise in TMOST, has anyone other than myself built a physical or 3D model of it? I've googled for it but there doesn't seem to be much modeling based specifically on his drawn version of the Enterprise.

I believe that it was Vektor*, a magnificiently talented artist who used to post on TrekBBS, who built a 3DMax version of the Constitution based upon the Franz Joseph blueprints.

I'm sure there are variances, but Joseph appeared to have based most of the exterior contours of his ship on the Jefferies scale drawing.

Unfortunately, the model was built in a now-outdated file format. With his permission, I did a partial conversion of the mesh to Lightwave back in 2004, for use as the wrecked U.S.S. Kongo in the fan film Starship Exeter: The Tressaurian Intersection.

IIRC, I converted only the engineering hull and nacelles since that was all that survived per the storyline.** And then I modified the details of the model to suggest a ship that might have been refit as a more advanced vessel than the Enterprise or Exeter. So in the work image below, you see things like a ST:TMP glowing deflector dish.

Be that as it may, you can also see the different curvature and proportions of the Jefferies' drawing represented in the image:





Since canon sources contradict each other as to the ship's dimensions (and much of Trek's canon is self-contradictory) I'm perfectly happy with the SNW scale of 442 meters. The ship's size was apparently quietly retconned in the last days of the Roddenberry/Berman era, and the larger scale makes more sense.

*I'm not sure it was him. If someone else is the actual artist and they're still active on the board, I hope they'll see this and correct my error.
**The grounded saucer also appears, but it was a physical model that was painted over as part of a matte.

 

[YouAreDooomed]

Wait, are the dimensions on the dedication plaque actually visible in SNW or not? I could have sworn they are but cannot find a screenshot.

That's an admitted mistake, along with the wrong version of the ship showing up on screens. It's just an oops. They happen.

Actually @HotRod is quite correct. The TOS Enterprise's length is not cemented in canon.

DSC canonized a ship that does not look like the TOS Enterprise or the actual Enterprise hovering in front of Discovery in "Brothers" with a nacelle length of 153.6m which if you measure what is on the computer display comes out to around an overall length of 279m. The computer diagram shows a ship that has a wider stance than the TOS Enterprise and also a different nacelle pylon configuration compared to the Enterprise hovering in front of Discovery. They are different ships.

Such mistakes happen, yet it does not invalidate the WHOLE thing. In DS9, this image was supposed to represent the Defiant.

The characters still pretend it is correct, so the audience can make a little leap in suspension of disbelief in this case too. The computer screen says "NCC-1701/ U.S.S. Enterprise/ Constitution Class," I very much doubt there is a second vessel with that designation (and straight pylons).

The size is indeed not cemented, since DSC's visual depiction of the Enterprise itself points to 442 m, but now, like it or not, there is something legible on-screen indicating the "traditional" total length of 289 m.

based on image from SNW "Momento Mori"

Personally, I think the higher figure makes more sense, I even think the 700+ m Kelvinprise is actually reasonable.

This "Discovery Straight Pylon Variant" of the Enterprise has a Gross Tonnage of 190,000 Metric Tons (internal volume) which differs from from the Gross Weight of 190,000 Metric Tons (weight of load) from TMOST. Voyager is described as "700,000 Metric Tons" but the dialogue does not say regarding what aspect of the ship. And lastly we have Scotty's "almost a million gross tons of vessel" description from "Mudd's Women". None of these measurements are comparable.

You have a point. I looked it up, and it seems someone in the production screwed up here. If it were the real-world term "gross tonnage," there should not be any unit attached to that figure, especially not metric tonnes because gt is dimensionless. Might be rationalized with an entirely different in-univers definition like mass of cargo capacity or something.
I stand corrected. However, concerning Voyager we have at least two statements from the episodes "Relativity" and "Phage."

JANEWAY: Seven hundred thousand metric tons, fifteen decks

EMH: The man drives a seven hundred thousand ton starship so somebody thinks he'd make a good medic.

We know it is metric tons, thus Janeway and The Doctor talk about mass. We also know Tom Paris drives that entire 700,000 mt starship, obviously referring to the overall mass probably with some kind of standard or full load.

 

[Daedalus]

I think so. Speaking of DS9 TM scales... if you look up the Miranda-class in the DS9 TM it is listed as beam of 173m which is a bit wider than the described 305m movie Enterprise which would have a beam of 142m. If the increase was applied to to the TMP Enterprise it would increase to 371m and the TOS Enterprise's 289m to 352m...

Perhaps we shouldn't be too hasty in writing off the DS9 technical manual.

Except for Defiant, which is all over the place with its lengths, is it correct to say that the majority of 24th century-era starships are sized correctly? Not including designs from the 23rd century that are still in service, of course.

 

[HotRod]

Wait, are the dimensions on the dedication plaque actually visible in SNW or not? I could have sworn they are but cannot find a screenshot.

Yes. This is literally a picture I took of my TV.

 

[blssdwlf]

Such mistakes happen, yet it does not invalidate the WHOLE thing. In DS9, this image was supposed to represent the Defiant.

One could also point out that this Defiant is a diagram of its internals and has nothing to do with the exterior or its external dimensions. At best you can advocate for the correct measurement of "the mistake"

Alternatively, Star Trek has a history of putting diagrams of previous versions of the ship as diagrams and this could just be a previous version of the Defiant.

The characters still pretend it is correct, so the audience can make a little leap in suspension of disbelief in this case too. The computer screen says "NCC-1701/ U.S.S. Enterprise/ Constitution Class," I very much doubt there is a second vessel with that designation (and straight pylons).

The size is indeed not cemented, since DSC's visual depiction of the Enterprise itself points to 442 m, but now, like it or not, there is something legible on-screen indicating the "traditional" total length of 289 m.

The question is whether there is something on screen that cements a 289m length of the TOS Enterprise. The answer is still no for the TOS Enterprise.

The straight pylon DSC Enterprise diagram you point to is not the same ship as the TOS Enterprise and it isn't the same ship hovering in front of Discovery in "Brother". All we know for sure is that the DSC Enterprise with straight pylons has a 153.6m long nacelle because that is what is visible on screen.

based on image from SNW "Momento Mori"

And all we know is that the SNW Enterprise with the slanted pylons is 442m based on Hotrod's screenshot of the dedication plaque. The nacelles on the SNW Enterprise with the slanted pylons is not 153.6m as we have no readable dimension of the nacelles from SNW episodes

Personally, I think the higher figure makes more sense, I even think the 700+ m Kelvinprise is actually reasonable.

Same, the smaller size has issues.

You have a point. I looked it up, and it seems someone in the production screwed up here. If it were the real-world term "gross tonnage," there should not be any unit attached to that figure, especially not metric tonnes because gt is dimensionless. Might be rationalized with an entirely different in-univers definition like mass of cargo capacity or something.
I stand corrected. However, concerning Voyager we have at least two statements from the episodes "Relativity" and "Phage."

We know it is metric tons, thus Janeway and The Doctor talk about mass. We also know Tom Paris drives that entire 700,000 mt starship, obviously referring to the overall mass probably with some kind of standard or full load.

From "Relativity"

JANEWAY: Seven hundred thousand metric tons, fifteen decks, and computer systems augmented with bio-neural circuitry, top cruising speed warp nine point nine seven five.​

From "Phage"

EMH: Then replicate one. The design schematics are in the ship’s medical database. The man drives a seven hundred thousand ton starship so somebody thinks he’d make a good medic.​

Fair enough that we can assume Voyager's mass is 700,000 metric tons based on Janeway's dialogue from "Relativity".

 

[Tallguy]

*I'm not sure it was him. If someone else is the actual artist and they're still active on the board, I hope they'll see this and correct my error.

Vektor did the U.S.S. Constitution. Gorgeous job.