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Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer
- Thread starter tomalak301
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I can't wait for you to catch up with old friends like Angel, Cordelia and Wesley and hear what you think of new friends like Doyle, Gunn, Lorne and Fred.
Thanks for the rewatch--it has been enjoyable seeing your posts on the seasons. For the record, I think my season rankings are 5, 3, 2, 6, 7, 1, 4 but I would have to go back and rewatch as you have brought up a lot that I've forgotten about and it has been at least 12 years since I've watched any Buffy.
I hope you enjoy Angel. Keep in mind that, although the first season has some really good episodes, the show doesn't really find its footing until the end of season 1.
I hope you enjoy Angel. Keep in mind that, although the first season has some really good episodes, the show doesn't really find its footing until the end of season 1.
Thanks to this thread I rewatched Buffy and I haven’t done that in about a decade. It was fun revisiting old friends.
I like Chosen as a finale except that Xander hardly seemed to care about Anya dying and Dawn got the last line of the series.
My ranking is 5, 2, 3, 6, 4, 1, 7
I had started giving Angel season 1 a second try, I mentioned this a while back. And then I skipped ahead to season 5. I’m almost finished and then I’ll probably continue with 1-4. Season 5 is awesome! The thought of going back to the crappiness of the first season makes me cringe.
I like Chosen as a finale except that Xander hardly seemed to care about Anya dying and Dawn got the last line of the series.
My ranking is 5, 2, 3, 6, 4, 1, 7
I had started giving Angel season 1 a second try, I mentioned this a while back. And then I skipped ahead to season 5. I’m almost finished and then I’ll probably continue with 1-4. Season 5 is awesome! The thought of going back to the crappiness of the first season makes me cringe.
Even though I’ve only known her for less than a season, I LOVE Fred! She reminds me of early Willow. Also really like Lorne and Wesley! One of the reasons why I’m not looking forward to finishing 1 and then doing 2-4 is Cordelia. I just don’t like her. But if I can put up with Dawn then I guess I can put up with Cordy.[SPOILER/]
My rankings are 5, 3, 6, 2, 4, 7, 1.
It's funny you mentioned season 7 as having too much melodrama because that's the thing that always pulled my season 2 rating down. Yeah, it has heart and it has the funny, but the whole Buffy/Angelus thing was just too oppressively melodramatic and teeny for me to consider it as highly as most people seem to. If season 4 had stuck the landing better, I'd probably put that one above 2 as well.
In regards to season 7, I think it's definitely true it's overcrowded. You've got characters like Buffy, Giles and Spike who just feel a little off. You've got characters like Anya and Dawn who just seem kind of there with nothing much to do. And then you've got these potentials intruding on almost every scene which: I like Amanda, Vi is fun simply because of Felicia Day, Chao-Ahn is fun, and Kennedy I kind of like in some episodes, but not in others, but beyond that who cares about the potentials, really? The vast majority of them had no personality and the ones that did were mostly annoying. You could really tell in the end that they only ever existed on the show for the sake of that one empowerment montage in the finale.
I mean it's a great montage and a big part of why I love the finale, but this is the biggest reason why season 7 is bottom of the barrel for me. They set up things with so much promise in the first half: the First Evil, the Potentials, etc, but then the whole season just kind of meanders around in the middle with no focus and nothing worthwhile to say about any of this until, boom, finale! Oh yeah, there's all this stuff we wanted to say so let's shove it all in at the end. By that point, even though the final stretch was as well done as it could have been under the circumstances, it had already lost plausibility because of the lack of established foundations.
Instead of establishing the Guardians and really exploring Willow's magic (which is a fundamentally confusing storyline after season 6), we spend forever acting like a single ubervamp is nigh unbeatable even by Buffy. Because that's a brilliant setup for a finale where a few dozen rookies (and even regular humans) have to fight an *army* of ubervamps.
Instead of establishing Caleb and exploring the First's desires and capabilities (still largely unspoken by the end of the series), we spend a whole stretch of episodes angsting about Spike maybe going bad but not really going bad because the first never bothered to even try to use this secret weapon for anything beyond siring some vamps and trying to kill Andrew.
I mean the First Evil should have been the most terrifying big bad in the show's history. Just look at Conversations with Dead People. This thing that can take on the guise of any person who's dead, this thing that's literally untouchable. Why wasn't it whispering in everyone's ear all the time? Why didn't we see a literal parade of dead characters from the past totally screwing everyone up? Why is there only a single case of suicide in a house full of vulnerable, scared, lonely kids with literal evil whispering in their ear about their inevitable deaths? Why didn't we see it impersonating Buffy to her friends instead of just to Caleb and Spike? Why didn't we see it impersonating Angel? Why didn't we see other loopholes? Buffy isn't the only person in the world to be clinically dead and then revived. Season 7 should've been a story in which no one could ever be entirely sure who was alive and who wasn't from moment to moment.
At the end of the day, the First is so poorly and unimaginatively used in this season that the only way I've ever been able to make sense of the story at all is by assuming that the first never wanted to open the hellmouth and release the Turok Han in the first place. For the story to make any sense at all, it must've wanted the outcome it got, more or less, which is rather unfortunate since it means that awakening the slayers and/or destroying the hellmouth is apparently a bad thing. (Which I believe is ultimately corroborated by the comics, though I don't know if the first ever got any mention in regards to that.)
It's funny you mentioned season 7 as having too much melodrama because that's the thing that always pulled my season 2 rating down. Yeah, it has heart and it has the funny, but the whole Buffy/Angelus thing was just too oppressively melodramatic and teeny for me to consider it as highly as most people seem to. If season 4 had stuck the landing better, I'd probably put that one above 2 as well.
In regards to season 7, I think it's definitely true it's overcrowded. You've got characters like Buffy, Giles and Spike who just feel a little off. You've got characters like Anya and Dawn who just seem kind of there with nothing much to do. And then you've got these potentials intruding on almost every scene which: I like Amanda, Vi is fun simply because of Felicia Day, Chao-Ahn is fun, and Kennedy I kind of like in some episodes, but not in others, but beyond that who cares about the potentials, really? The vast majority of them had no personality and the ones that did were mostly annoying. You could really tell in the end that they only ever existed on the show for the sake of that one empowerment montage in the finale.
I mean it's a great montage and a big part of why I love the finale, but this is the biggest reason why season 7 is bottom of the barrel for me. They set up things with so much promise in the first half: the First Evil, the Potentials, etc, but then the whole season just kind of meanders around in the middle with no focus and nothing worthwhile to say about any of this until, boom, finale! Oh yeah, there's all this stuff we wanted to say so let's shove it all in at the end. By that point, even though the final stretch was as well done as it could have been under the circumstances, it had already lost plausibility because of the lack of established foundations.
Instead of establishing the Guardians and really exploring Willow's magic (which is a fundamentally confusing storyline after season 6), we spend forever acting like a single ubervamp is nigh unbeatable even by Buffy. Because that's a brilliant setup for a finale where a few dozen rookies (and even regular humans) have to fight an *army* of ubervamps.
Instead of establishing Caleb and exploring the First's desires and capabilities (still largely unspoken by the end of the series), we spend a whole stretch of episodes angsting about Spike maybe going bad but not really going bad because the first never bothered to even try to use this secret weapon for anything beyond siring some vamps and trying to kill Andrew.
I mean the First Evil should have been the most terrifying big bad in the show's history. Just look at Conversations with Dead People. This thing that can take on the guise of any person who's dead, this thing that's literally untouchable. Why wasn't it whispering in everyone's ear all the time? Why didn't we see a literal parade of dead characters from the past totally screwing everyone up? Why is there only a single case of suicide in a house full of vulnerable, scared, lonely kids with literal evil whispering in their ear about their inevitable deaths? Why didn't we see it impersonating Buffy to her friends instead of just to Caleb and Spike? Why didn't we see it impersonating Angel? Why didn't we see other loopholes? Buffy isn't the only person in the world to be clinically dead and then revived. Season 7 should've been a story in which no one could ever be entirely sure who was alive and who wasn't from moment to moment.
At the end of the day, the First is so poorly and unimaginatively used in this season that the only way I've ever been able to make sense of the story at all is by assuming that the first never wanted to open the hellmouth and release the Turok Han in the first place. For the story to make any sense at all, it must've wanted the outcome it got, more or less, which is rather unfortunate since it means that awakening the slayers and/or destroying the hellmouth is apparently a bad thing. (Which I believe is ultimately corroborated by the comics, though I don't know if the first ever got any mention in regards to that.)
But then you know all the spoilers of the show.
I’ve known about the major events in the show for years so I wasn’t really spoiled.
I had only wanted to watch season 5 because Spike was in it but now I want to try to do the rest.[SPOILER/]
Did you know that Oz runs a vape shop now?
One of the things I hated about the finale was how casually Anya's death was brushed off. The actual event is just a quick cut (pun intended). Then when someone tells Zander they saw her die fighting he just shrugs and says that's my girl. Basically Anya is flushed down the drain and Zander closes out the series continuing to be a giant dick.
Also, hey, that Slyer Healing Factor™ is amazing - Buffy was run though with a broadsword! Probably got a kidney and a good chunk of intestines there. But, hey, she's fine, never mind.
But I tell you what, that last shot was perfect. "What'll we do now?" and Sarah gives us a perfect little knowing smile that the future is wide open, and they can do anything they want.
Also, hey, that Slyer Healing Factor™ is amazing - Buffy was run though with a broadsword! Probably got a kidney and a good chunk of intestines there. But, hey, she's fine, never mind.
But I tell you what, that last shot was perfect. "What'll we do now?" and Sarah gives us a perfect little knowing smile that the future is wide open, and they can do anything they want.
My ranking is 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 1, 4
Interesting how we all seem to have the same top four and bottom three, just in different orders.
I didn't feel like Anya's death was brushed off, just they only had like a minute on that final scene to cover all the surviving characters. Xander was still in shock and processing everything that happened. He probably mourned her for real later. I'm more bothered that more of the likable potentials died and more of the less likable ones survived.
Angel has its really good moments, but also has its really weird moments that don't work.
Interesting how we all seem to have the same top four and bottom three, just in different orders.
I didn't feel like Anya's death was brushed off, just they only had like a minute on that final scene to cover all the surviving characters. Xander was still in shock and processing everything that happened. He probably mourned her for real later. I'm more bothered that more of the likable potentials died and more of the less likable ones survived.
Angel has its really good moments, but also has its really weird moments that don't work.
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Good point about the First and Conversations with Dead People. That episode should have had a lot more consequence than it did. I mean the ominous messages sent to the three should have been the running theme of the season, and it might have better explained Dawns decision to come back to Sunnydale rather than how it came across.
I know Slayers heal quickly but I was confused by that too. You had some of the slayers who could barely stand because they were so wounded but Buffy is A OK. It was a good scene so I’m willing to suspend disbelief (heal at the speed of plot and so forth) but that’s where that extra hour could have been beneficial.
As for Anya, they really should have wrote her out at the end of Selfless. It would have been a much more satisfying ending and this is the final season so you do need to provide closure to these characters. I actually looked past Anya’s death mainly because she was a non-factor this season. That is a bit unfortunate though.
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That is the perfect ending. It helps that SMG is able to convey more with a single look than some actors can get across with pages of dialogue.
My season rankings would be a little different from most other people's here, mainly because I really didn't like Season 2. (Soooo much angst and moping.) My order is probably 5, 7, 3, 6, 4, 1, 2.
I loved Gellar's smile at the end. It's a very optimistic ending, knowing that Buffy is no longer the only slayer and she can finally be the person she always dreamed to be. She was no longer "alone".
I've seen a lot of people who kind of assume that Buffy was going entirely on adrenaline and just totally collapsed right after the camera turned off.
That’s not the point. It’s very different circumstances.
So, when are you starting with Angel? Right away , or taking a bit of a break after Buffy?
I might start it tonight. I am going out of town this week (and 2 other times this summer) but kinda depends on how I feel.
For the rankings, I also think it is a matter of very small degrees between quality...even the worst seasons were still very good.
Yeah. Like I said about season 1, there were episodes I did like that season (like the puppet episode or the finale) but it was so short. Also, I think it was you who said Season 4 had excellent standalones, which they did. This was really based on my mood. Like season 2 I can understand the melodrama complaint but that season was fun and came together so well that I could understand why the melodrama was needed. Season 5 was just flat out fun and represented Buffy at her absolute best, in being the Slayer and the leader.
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