Braga still "NOT SURE!"

[Cyke101]

I don't see what the problem is here. The guy's already admitted/owned up to a huge fault and TV faux pas. Now we're just venting at him.

As for the finale itself, it wouldn't have been so bad had it not been the finale in the first place. And since it wouldn't be a finale (more like a mid-season episode), you wouldn't have such a cheap gimmick like the holodeck from an obscure TNG episode to frame hugely important things like the death of Trip and the origins of the Federation.

Surprising as it may sound, and contrary to many fans' earlier complaints, I think the finale defined later Trek as a whole: wayyy too dependent on its mythology rather than seeing just what the cast and crew could do on their own. The Xindi Arc largely worked b/c it showed us a threat not seen in past Trek and did it in their own terms. The finale failed b/c it wasn't an Enterprise episode, it was a TNG episode.

 

[xortex]

I would have liked to see Archer to fight for control of who was watching who on the holodeck. Didn't see the episode but their should have been a secondary adversary that made it important as to who's crew was the 'real' one. I wish I could help rewrite it. It was a good premise. Time travel in the holodeck and multi-infarc dimentia.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

I am kinda new here..Before I toss in my two cents, what do you kids think of Braga and Berman in general?

Sadistro (we miss you, dude!) had a thread going a while back that analyzed the objectives and writing style of Enterprise, with an emphasis on Braga's contributions to this and other shows. Fascinating discussion, if you don't mind reading looooooong posts. It gave me a renewed appreciation for Braga, as well as the difficulties of cranking out a series and striking a balance between the desires of the producers, writers, studio, and network.

[thread=81895]Here's the thread[/thread].

Even the best writers can get too tainted by their own subjective perspective and not realize how a story is going to look to others. (Call it the George Lucas Syndrome. ) TATV seems to be a story that looked very different to Berman/Braga than to many Enterprise fans. Props to Braga for acknowleding that, to a lot of people, it was a misfire.

Of course, the way to make it up to everyone is to do more Enterprise...

 

[Mach5]

That's it. The firing of Moore got braga scared to do anything risky.

Not really. Braga basically pushed Moore out and became free to write crap.

Sadistro (we miss you, dude!)

Who's we?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Sadistro (we miss you, dude!)

Who's we?

Who says I was talking about you?

 

[Level 2 Diagnostic]

I don't see what the problem is here. The guy's already admitted/owned up to a huge fault and TV faux pas. Now we're just venting at him.

That's what I was about to say. This must be the third or fourth time I've read an interview with him where he basically apologizes for TATV. Somehow it never seems to be enough.

And I would say the "not sure" line is just him trying to be diplomatic. When he says "I'm not sure it came together," of course he means "it failed," but he's not going to say "it failed" out of deference to all the people who worked hard on that episode. It's not that difficult to read between the lines.

 

[Mach5]

Sadistro (we miss you, dude!)

Who's we?

Who says I was talking about you?

That's why I asked... I don't even dislike him as much as some other posters (whose user names I will not mention).

 

[ChristopherPike]

I'm afraid the reason why he has to keep apologising seems quite clear to me... to use the Sherlock Holmes analogy, he's written his "Final Problem" and nobody liked how he despatched their favourite character. I mean Trip was supposed to be his favourite too and he carried out his sacrifice (read suicide) with as much passion as dragging a bin to the curbside. I liked Mangel's & Martin's TGTMD, but he needed to be the one who undid the damage with an "Empty House" style 'what really happened' retcon. To make sense of how such a spectacularly dull event could have gone done in history as the NX-01's final mission. That's the only way (admittedly mostly) ENT fans will ever stop griping on how bad it is.

If he ever does get the unlikely opportunity to do that, many series have been this road before with contradictory extended media - novels, comic books, audio dramas, even movies... rewriting or wholesale disregarding how the last entry ended.

I could really use an emoticon showing hyperventilation...

 

[Trek Survivor]

Just checking. I can't stand the B&B monobrain machine.

It was not an under-estimation to say that if Rick Berman hadn't become involved in Trek, we WOULD NOT HAVE 'modern Star Trek'. He saved TNG and was a guiding force throughout its run; he CO-CREATED DS9, surely the best entry in the franchise (and yes, he had plenty to do with it, sorry, Ira Behr fans). He CO-CREATED Voyager, which had great potential in its first year or two.

I'm not really familiar with Enterprise or the later Voyager years, and I understand that under Berman's stewardship things became stale. I'd be tempted to argue that the milking of the franchise (for which incidentally, Berman was NOT responsible. He argued against both Generations following TNG so quickly, and Voyager coming on air so soon) would have meant the 'stale' factor was inevitable anyway. Very few things last in popularity 'forever' without the odd "break" of several years.

Look, I'm not saying he - or Braga - are perfect, but their demonisation in these forums is laughable. They did a lot of good for the franchise.

 

[Disillusioned]

It's cool that Braga has apologized for his that crappy last episode, but it would be better if he actually understood why it was a bad episode.

Being a DS9 fan, I can't help but wish they'd brought in more talent from that show instead of from VOY.

 

[cultcross]

Just checking. I can't stand the B&B monobrain machine.

It was not an under-estimation to say that if Rick Berman hadn't become involved in Trek, we WOULD NOT HAVE 'modern Star Trek'. He saved TNG and was a guiding force throughout its run; he CO-CREATED DS9, surely the best entry in the franchise (and yes, he had plenty to do with it, sorry, Ira Behr fans). He CO-CREATED Voyager, which had great potential in its first year or two.

I'm not really familiar with Enterprise or the later Voyager years, and I understand that under Berman's stewardship things became stale. I'd be tempted to argue that the milking of the franchise (for which incidentally, Berman was NOT responsible. He argued against both Generations following TNG so quickly, and Voyager coming on air so soon) would have meant the 'stale' factor was inevitable anyway. Very few things last in popularity 'forever' without the odd "break" of several years.

Look, I'm not saying he - or Braga - are perfect, but their demonisation in these forums is laughable. They did a lot of good for the franchise.

Berman shepherded Star Trek for many years in a reasonable fashion, and I think most people, once their gnashing of teeth subsides, can acknowledge that. His tenure on TNG was at least as good as he predecessor's, and as you say, he came up with some excellent series concepts in DS9 and VOY. It is worth noting though that DS9 got steadily better as Berman got steadily less involved. Correlation is, of course, not causation, but it is an interesting trend to note nonetheless.
The main objection most people have to Berman is his unnerving ability to be a talking corporate suit in the last years of Trek as he oversaw them. The phrase "We're all very pleased" has been overused to the point it's really not funny anymore, but it showed what many fan's main objection was to Berman: he was very bland, and seemed to have little or no grasp of how to engage an audience with a TV show in the 21st Century.
Braga is a different matter entirely - he was never that good a writer; when that is said people point to Genesis to defend him, but I can't say there was much evidence of strong writing in that either, and deciding to 'devole' a human into a spider spoke volumes about Braga's grasp of the difference between a coherent story and something that's 'really cool'.

In the end, the ultimate 'blame' for the excersise in banality that was VOY and ENT can't be laid entirely at Berman & Braga's feet - no two men in the world of TV production have that much power or influence. But it is also impossible to truly exonerate them.



As to the OP, Braga has a bit of a point in that 'Seeing Archer through the TNG holodeck' isn't a bad concept. But it is clear from the episode that not the slightest thought was then given to how that might actually play in reality, well over a decade after the last TNG was shot. After they'd had the idea, they should have either a) set it on the Enterprise E or the Titan so the actors' ages wouldn't be riduculously wrong, or b) abandoned the idea as impractical.

 

[Mach5]

Being a DS9 fan, I can't help but wish they'd brought in more talent from that show instead of from VOY.

B&B actually sought advice from Ira Steven Behr, but (unfortunately) chose to ignore his ideas:

"They sent me the three [episodes of Enterprise], I went in, had a two hour meeting with Rick and Brannon," Behr told TrekWeb. "It was a very cordial meeting, but everything I said I am sure they did not like hearing. I would not liked to have heard it if someone came into my office and talked as bluntly as I was talking to them. Though again, it was done all cordially. After it was over I am sure they were uncomfortable, I was very uncomfortable, we shook hands, Rick said, 'well, all interesting stuff, we’ll think it over,' and I never heard from him again."

As to the OP, Braga has a bit of a point in that 'Seeing Archer through the TNG holodeck' isn't a bad concept.

As I said many times, the holodeck idea is not the main reason TATV turned out so bad. The main problem with TATV are ENT characters. They looked like the characters we knew loved, the sounded like them, but behaved nothing like them. They all felt totally off, like the holo engineer who created the simulation knew nothing about these people at all. It simply did not feel like an ENT episode. Not one bit!

Spoiler: TATV

Oh, yeah, and Trip killed himslf

 

[ChristopherPike]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, as a prequel, they needed to reach out to the next succeeding Star Trek series. No way should that have been TNG (or any 24th Century show). In 2005, the Next Generation's reputation was actually the lowest it had ever been, because Nemesis failed to live up to expectations. With the 40th Anniversary a little more than a year away, the Original Series was in the accendancy even then... maybe thanks to Season 4 which carried its fun, adventurous influence in spades.

It’s a shame modern Trek didn't go out on a high with a two-parter, or something more epic at any rate and preferably a little more inclusive of The Original Series… because (and I know many don’t agree with me here) I always thought stylistically and in the way the characters were drawn, Enterprise had little connection with Next Gen and everything in common with Kirk, Spock and McCoy. They almost secured William Shatner at one point, the only spin-off to come close, and that would've been a memorable way to legitimize Enterprise in the minds of those left unconvinced about the show. Healing a rift in the fanbase, the way Nimoy's appearance on both TNG and the Abramsverse seemed to have done for the most part.

 

[xortex]

Being a DS9 fan, I can't help but wish they'd brought in more talent from that show instead of from VOY.

B&B actually sought advice from Ira Steven Behr, but (unfortunately) chose to ignore his ideas:

"They sent me the three [episodes of Enterprise], I went in, had a two hour meeting with Rick and Brannon," Behr told TrekWeb. "It was a very cordial meeting, but everything I said I am sure they did not like hearing. I would not liked to have heard it if someone came into my office and talked as bluntly as I was talking to them. Though again, it was done all cordially. After it was over I am sure they were uncomfortable, I was very uncomfortable, we shook hands, Rick said, 'well, all interesting stuff, we’ll think it over,' and I never heard from him again."

As to the OP, Braga has a bit of a point in that 'Seeing Archer through the TNG holodeck' isn't a bad concept.

As I said many times, the holodeck idea is not the main reason TATV turned out so bad. The main problem with TATV are ENT characters. They looked like the characters we knew loved, the sounded like them, but behaved nothing like them. They all felt totally off, like the holo engineer who created the simulation knew nothing about these people at all. It simply did not feel like an ENT episode. Not one bit!

Spoiler: TATV

Oh, yeah, and Trip killed himslf

Not bringing in new people was a problem that started with IraStevens Behr and DS9. They got lazy and greedy. Why did they need anyone else if the could just churn out one Quark comedy after another. He always disagreed with what the fans wanted.
Now if I was redoing TATV, I would have made it uncertain as to who's reality was more 'real' with the use of time travel and a more important adversary That made Archer's reality more imperitive. Maybe include an older archer and a Admiral elderly Archer hologram who warns them of the way things 'should' be else... The adversary would overtake them all, so Riker and 'Aecher' would have to work together.

 

[Mach5]

Now if I was redoing TATV, I would have made it uncertain as to who's reality was more 'real' with the use of time travel and a more important adversary That made Archer's reality more imperitive. Maybe include an older archer and a Admiral elderly Archer hologram who warns them of the way things 'should' be else... The adversary would overtake them all, so Riker and 'Aecher' would have to work together.

Well, If I was redoing TATV, I would use it to resolve the temporal cold war and reveal the Future Guy's identity. Since it would obviously be a time travel episode, I would use the opportunity to visit, 23rd and 24th century, even 26th from which the Future Guy operates. And I would make it an Enterprise / Titan crossover (with all those "freaks" like Ensign Torvig, Dr. Rhee and other creepy non-humanoids conveniently off on shore leave or something ).

And I would make it a 3-part epic with a very happy end.

 

[xortex]

And it could involve Daniel's racial purification complex.

 

[Anwar]

It's cool that Braga has apologized for his that crappy last episode, but it would be better if he actually understood why it was a bad episode.

Being a DS9 fan, I can't help but wish they'd brought in more talent from that show instead of from VOY.

What ENT needed was more time to develop the show after VOY, and 100% new blood. Aside from Berman and Braga I don't think ANYONE from the prior shows should have been brought on.

 

[Skywalker]

It's cool that Braga has apologized for his that crappy last episode, but it would be better if he actually understood why it was a bad episode.

I think Braga does understand why, but being a professional who's still actively involved in Hollywood, he has to remain diplomatic about it and not step on any toes.

 

[Itisnotlogical]

I haven't seen it but time traveling in the holodeck sounds like a good story especially if Archer and crew become 'aware' of Riker and crew.

No. Not another god damn holodeck episode, I am soooo sick of holodeck episodes. The damn thing was breaking down every other episode on TNG and VOY to the point of where I could taste holodeck on my mouth.

 

[Disillusioned]

What ENT needed was more time to develop the show after VOY, and 100% new blood. Aside from Berman and Braga I don't think ANYONE from the prior shows should have been brought on.

80% of the problems ENT had were a direct result of B&B. After all, they did a lot of the writing themselves, and the direction of the production shows that they were running on empty. I would have traded out producers before writers, even.

I think Braga does understand why, but being a professional who's still actively involved in Hollywood, he has to remain diplomatic about it and not step on any toes.

From what one of my friends who actually worked with him said, he's a nice guy and all, but he's clueless, so I can totally see him not understanding why so many fans hated the finale. But at least he admits it was a mistake now, which is more than can be said for Mr. Berman.