Alternate Constitution class Engineering

[Timo]

So if you removed the big metal vats from the "brewery" section (whatever they are; coolant tanks? antimatter bottles? Slush hydrogen?)

Don't we see VFX of those being the specific things ejected upwards when Kirk calls for the "core" to be ejected and detonated to escape the final timehole?

Calling those the "core" is Scotty's terminology, not Kirk's, to be sure. But it would be easy to argue that the "core" is a massive and distributed thing in the 23rd century and a single compact rod in the 24th century only. And the part of it that can be "detonated" is the one with the antimatter in it. Meaning, antimatter tank ejection would meet the plot need in the 2009 film, and might still meet the dialogue specs as well.

And the matter-antimatter reaction chamber was a much smaller device built into the floor in the middle of the room.

Or a much, much larger one, simply residing on the multiple decks below...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think the big vats are intermix chambers, in cooling tanks. That's what they look like during the '09 ejection sequence.

Perhaps the intermix chamber/warp core/lava lamp in TMP is actually several arranged in parallel, wheras the new version is arranged in series? Or perhaps they just have six of them because the new ship is so much bigger?

As for how the NIF core and them work together... did anyone ever make sense of Wrath of Khan, and how the thingie Spock was playing with worked with that warp drive? Maybe something similar to that

 

[Timo]

I'm still partial towards the setup where a huge armored chamber is part of every 23rd century setup, and a dumbwaiter system with a radlock at the end takes dilithium safely to that chamber. The radlock is on the floor of one of the control rooms in TOS, inside that aquarium in ST2:TWoK, and somewhere else in the new movies. And in every case, keeping unprotected people anywhere near the armored chamber is bad form, to be avoided, but not exactly against regulations - so our heroes cut corners and work there in shirtsleeves. Except in TOS, where Scotty sensibly stays in the control booth most of the time, and only his underlings wear those fancy tin foil costumes.

The lava lamp of TMP is the same as in TNG (and ENT) - a plasma conduit for taking the produced energies to the applications. TNG just compacts the armored chamber into that fridge-sized thing in the middle of the warp core, and also exposes the matter and antimatter peristaltic feeds for the audience to ogle, when those things are under so much more armor in the previous century.

IMHO.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

On the other hand, the original TOS engine room used to have all that piping behind the Angst Fence:

This is a really nice angle on what's behind the fence in Engineering. This must be just about the right angle that was intended for the set's forced perspective to work.

 

[Timo]

In the end, I'm happy they went with the multiple angles allowed by the wide set and its relatively expansive flat floor, even if this turns the "forced perspective" into a "de facto conical layout".

Thumbs up for the moving of set elements between episodes, too: the concept of those big "transformers" actually being mobile is an intriguing one.

I wonder if there's any VFX-based "functionality" to the new sets, beyond those canisters firing upward in emergencies, and that water flowing. They could do so much more!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shark]

We accept, as a matter of canon, that the Enterprise's warp core compartment bears an uncanny resemblance to the National Ignition Facility's reaction chamber. It's not much of a stretch to think the REST of the engineering section does too, especially since the TOS engine room wasn't that far off from it either.

None of what you've said has really convinced me that your point of view is the correct one, or the only possible interpretation. If you want there to be resemblances here and connections there, go for it; I don't see any of what you're presenting to be an accurate representation of anything you're suggesting.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We accept, as a matter of canon, that the Enterprise's warp core compartment bears an uncanny resemblance to the National Ignition Facility's reaction chamber. It's not much of a stretch to think the REST of the engineering section does too, especially since the TOS engine room wasn't that far off from it either.

None of what you've said has really convinced me that your point of view is the correct one, or the only possible interpretation.

As I have attempted to do NEITHER of those things, I won't loose any sleep over it.

 

[Shark]

We accept, as a matter of canon, that the Enterprise's warp core compartment bears an uncanny resemblance to the National Ignition Facility's reaction chamber. It's not much of a stretch to think the REST of the engineering section does too, especially since the TOS engine room wasn't that far off from it either.

None of what you've said has really convinced me that your point of view is the correct one, or the only possible interpretation.

As I have attempted to do NEITHER of those things, I won't loose any sleep over it.

Well obviously you've been trying to convince me that your interpretation is the 'right' one, that's why you've been continuously responding to me and rebutting my points. And it's lose, not loose.

Also, if you think the image of the NIF is a representation of the Enterprise's guts, so be it.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I wonder about the deck structure though. I think the Enterprise probably has a similar deck structure as its TMP era counterpart, it's just that each deck has probably multiple levels (upper and lower level on each...

One problem with the cutaway is that the deck structure at the edge of the saucer doesn't match what's seen on screen in STiD. It's clearly visible that there are only two corridors/decks, not the 5 shown. Another (lesser) problem is that only two of those supposed five decks have windows.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

None of what you've said has really convinced me that your point of view is the correct one, or the only possible interpretation.

As I have attempted to do NEITHER of those things, I won't loose any sleep over it.

Well obviously you've been trying to convince me that your interpretation is the 'right' one

Cool story, bro.

I wonder about the deck structure though. I think the Enterprise probably has a similar deck structure as its TMP era counterpart, it's just that each deck has probably multiple levels (upper and lower level on each...

One problem with the cutaway is that the deck structure at the edge of the saucer doesn't match what's seen on screen in STiD. It's clearly visible that there are only two corridors/decks, not the 5 shown. Another (lesser) problem is that only two of those supposed five decks have windows.

That's kinda what I mean. It seems like instead of being five decks with a three meter clearance, it should be two decks with a twelve meter clearance and some armor plating/machinery between them. Each deck would have some spaces with high bays and well decks for extra workspace, storage space, hardware and equipment spaces, etc. It's clear from the STID the decks are not entirely floor-to-ceiling flush with each other, so it's really more of a machinery/habitation/machinery sandwich.

 

[Go-Captain]

The warp core in STID, was it actually called the warp core? I ask because ST2009 establishes the warp core as being a multi-part system, and if the STID part is included it just gets more confusing, but it still fits since it's already a multi-part system.

 

[Trimm]

The warp core in STID, was it actually called the warp core? I ask because ST2009 establishes the warp core as being a multi-part system, and if the STID part is included it just gets more confusing, but it still fits since it's already a multi-part system.

Yes, I believe Scotty specifically refers to it as the warp core during the climax.

 

[Mytran]

Kirk also identifies it as a "warp core" when he and Scotty walk by it earlier in the film

 

[Timo]

The first new movie also carefully describes the warp core in the singular, even if ejecting this singular thing means ejecting several big metal cylinders and possibly doesn't require ejecting the big sphere...

"The warp core" may be the proper designation for half the contents of the secondary hull, really, even if the most visible parts of it get all the glory and all the dialogue attention. Or perhaps we're mishearing, and it's actually "the warp corps" and always has been - explaining the reluctance of our heroes to eject this whole department of the ship's personnel and machinery?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Go-Captain]

The first new movie also carefully describes the warp core in the singular, even if ejecting this singular thing means ejecting several big metal cylinders and possibly doesn't require ejecting the big sphere...

"The warp core" may be the proper designation for half the contents of the secondary hull, really, even if the most visible parts of it get all the glory and all the dialogue attention. Or perhaps we're mishearing, and it's actually "the warp corps" and always has been - explaining the reluctance of our heroes to eject this whole department of the ship's personnel and machinery?

Timo Saloniemi

I agree that "warp core" in nuTrek must refer to all the power generation equipment involved in powering the warp drive, not just the ejected reactor(s), or sphere room, but even the pipes, and anything else. If that really is the case it's not so bad, it just means warp core is more synonymous with power plant than reactor.

 

[Mytran]

This might also help to explain the situation in ST:ID, where all propulsion systems went down when the Warp Core went offline

 

[Timo]

It's sort of easier to accept that a series of puny-looking rockets can stop the descent of the ship if a key ingredient is some sort of a magical gravity-fighting field. And DS9 "Emissary" basically tells us that warp fields do that very thing, so a warp core might well be a necessary ingredient in making the ship decelerate, accelerate and otherwise move nimbly at STL.

Similarly, movement in ST2:TWoK would be painfully slow even though nothing was supposed to be wrong with the ship's impulse engines; thousand-gee accelerations similar to the Earth-departure scene in ST:TMP might only be possible if the warp core were providing power for mass-reducing fields.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Hmm, that sounds familiar, you been passing by this thread lately?

Good call about the need for something more than mere thrusters to save the Nu-E though. Regarding DS9, although it was probably the first time that onscreen dialogue mentioned a mass reduction field, it wasn't technically tied to warp technology:

DAX: Couldn't you modify the subspace field output of the deflector generators just enough to create a low-level field around the station?
O'BRIEN: So we could lower the inertial mass?
DAX: If you can make the station lighter, those six thrusters will be all the power we'd need.
O'BRIEN: This whole station could break apart like an egg if it doesn't work.

 

[Go-Captain]

It's sort of easier to accept that a series of puny-looking rockets can stop the descent of the ship if a key ingredient is some sort of a magical gravity-fighting field. And DS9 "Emissary" basically tells us that warp fields do that very thing, so a warp core might well be a necessary ingredient in making the ship decelerate, accelerate and otherwise move nimbly at STL.

Similarly, movement in ST2:TWoK would be painfully slow even though nothing was supposed to be wrong with the ship's impulse engines; thousand-gee accelerations similar to the Earth-departure scene in ST:TMP might only be possible if the warp core were providing power for mass-reducing fields.

Timo Saloniemi

That also fits TOS where their dilithium was non-functional, and they had to use a necklace of dilthium to get power back. I guess that's Elaan of Troyius. The Enterprise was described as a whale without warp power, while the attacking Klingon ship kept making warp powered strafing runs with impunity, but only at several thousand (or is it hundred) meters per second. That firmly ties the warp mechanisms to the slower than light mechanisms, at least in the main timeline.

Hmm, that sounds familiar, you been passing by this thread lately?

Good call about the need for something more than mere thrusters to save the Nu-E though. Regarding DS9, although it was probably the first time that onscreen dialogue mentioned a mass reduction field, it wasn't technically tied to warp technology:

DAX: Couldn't you modify the subspace field output of the deflector generators just enough to create a low-level field around the station?
O'BRIEN: So we could lower the inertial mass?
DAX: If you can make the station lighter, those six thrusters will be all the power we'd need.
O'BRIEN: This whole station could break apart like an egg if it doesn't work.

I find it more interesting that that scene directly connects the deflector technology to warp field technology.

We have a similar scene where in TNG the warp drive is used to create a mass reduction field to lower the mass of a moon. It's the Q episode where he loses his powers. It doesn't work, but only for lack of sufficient output, the idea itself is considered sound by Geordi and everyone else.http://www.trekbbs.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Timo]

Well, navigational deflectors need to create high FTL effects - matching the main engines in speed at least. Why the deflectors of a static space station would need to do that is more difficult to explain. They don't even extend to great distances outside the station.

the attacking Klingon ship kept making warp powered strafing runs with impunity, but only at several thousand (or is it hundred) meters per second

Well, at one point, Spock muttered "Better than warp seven", but we don't know what he was referring to exactly. Apart from that, the speed of the Klingons was not indicated, just the distance to them (in a fight where the Enterprise moved at speeds up to lightspeed, but the Klingons could have been running circles around them at FTL for all we know).

If warp=sublight maneuverability for Kirk, it may be the same for Klingons, who are agile at sublight up to a degree equivalent to warp seven or more!

Canon never explicitly gives us a tri-doodad or thingamastator that would make starships agile. Either it's an implicit feature of existing, described systems, or then the doodad never fails or otherwise becomes a plot point.

Timo Saloniemi