Why Not?

[Admiral_Sisko]

I've been re-watching Star Trek VI recently, and have wondered about the decision to include Kirk in the Enterprise's mission to escort Chancellor Gowron through Federation space, given his feelings toward Klingons.

Admiral "Bill" remarks that the Klingons would be less likely to attack the Enterprise under Kirk's command, a nod to Kirk's considerable command experience and his past accomplishments as Enterprise captain. Despite this, I've found myself wondering if Kirk- given his feelings- needed be part of the mission. Spock was successful in establishing a running dialogue with the Kiingon High Council, and could have captained the Enterprise in Kirk's absence.

There are numerous logistical reasons from a movie-making stadpoint why this would not have worked, as the exclusion of Kirk from such a significant mission would not have appealed to fans eager to see his character again, but consider the situation from Starfleet's perspective. Spock had command experience and was committed to making the peace mission a success. Why not have him command the Enterprise himself?

 

[Maurice]

But that's precisely what the "Only Nixon could go to China," metaphor was expressing. As wikipedia correctly explains, "It refers to the ability of a [person] with an unassailable reputation among his supporters for representing and defending their values to take actions that would draw their criticism and even opposition if taken by someone without those credentials." Starfleet is counting on Kirk's doing it to make the very idea palatable to the rest of Starfleet and perhaps the population at large.

 

[M-Red]

Spock himself is the one who went to Starfleet Command and nominated Kirk for the mission.


Spock believed Kirk's presence was vital for the mission's success. Spock knew the Klingons respected him, but they feared Kirk. Spock's logic prevented his ego from camaflouging that fact.


And maybe he wanted his old friend there for personal reasons too. Spock recognized that Kirk needed to heal his inner wounds with the Klingons, and this was perhaps the last opportunity.


The moral of the story was the need to move on and let go of your grievances as the Cold War was coming to an end. Spock's decision to include Kirk was the first of many points throughout TUC that stressed this theme.

 

[sonak]

yeah, the rationale for this was summed up by the "only Nixon could go to China" saying. It was Kirk's credibility as a warrior that allowed the peace process to not be seen as an act of weakness.

 

[BillJ]

See I think Starfleet sent someone they thought would be trigger-happy when it came to Klingons. They thought with Kirk's history that he wouldn't be able to hold back when the shooting started.

 

[horatio83]

yeah, the rationale for this was summed up by the "only Nixon could go to China" saying. It was Kirk's credibility as a warrior that allowed the peace process to not be seen as an act of weakness.

Precisely.

 

[sonak]

See I think Starfleet sent someone they thought would be trigger-happy when it came to Klingons. They thought with Kirk's history that he wouldn't be able to hold back when the shooting started.

huh? Since when was Kirk "trigger-happy" when it came to the Klingons? In TSFS, he tries to save Kruge even after David has been murdered, and he doesn't seem trigger happy toward them in TFF either.

 

[BillJ]

See I think Starfleet sent someone they thought would be trigger-happy when it came to Klingons. They thought with Kirk's history that he wouldn't be able to hold back when the shooting started.

huh? Since when was Kirk "trigger-happy" when it came to the Klingons? In TSFS, he tries to save Kruge even after David has been murdered, and he doesn't seem trigger happy toward them in TFF either.

Captain's log, Stardate 9522.6. I've never trusted Klingons, and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy. To me our mission to escort the Chancellor of the Klingon High Council to a peace summit ...is problematic, at best. Spock says this could be an historic occasion, and I'd like to believe him. But how on earth can history get past people like me?

If you want to instigate a situation you send someone who may have personal issues with the people you're meeting.

 

[horatio83]

As Sonak pointed out Kirk is anything but the trigger-happy cowboy he is portrayed as (gee, they arrested him and he did not shoot). Furthermore Cartwright did not pull the strings, plan A was to prevent peace negotiations.

 

[BillJ]

As Sonak pointed out Kirk is anything but the trigger-happy cowboy he is portrayed as (gee, they arrested him and he did not shoot). Furthermore Cartwright did not pull the strings, plan A was to prevent peace negotiations.

So you're saying that Cartwright, a Starfleet Admiral who was in on the meeting assigning the Enterprise and was at the Khitomer meetings, didn't have any type of input on who was selected for the mission?

 

[horatio83]

Of course he had but he wasn't the puppet master who secretly pulled the strings, he was one of many flag officers during the meeting. Spock was a more crucial factor as he vouched for Kirk and as Sonak has pointed out, Spock was convinced by the "only Nixon could go to China" logic which means in this instance that only a Starfleet officer who has often dealt with Klingons and is perceived as a strong captain can implement peace talks as he does not appear weak.
Furthermore Kirk is anything but trigger-happy when he gets arrested.

So we gotta suppose that Cartwright whose main plan was to oppose peace talks had a plan B prepared. This plan involved Jim Kirk and Cartwright had enough influence to push it through. Furthermore he thinks that Kirk is trigger-happy and might initiate a conflict with the Klingons or even a war. Seems pretty far-fetched and if this was his plan it did not actually work as Kirk was the very opposite of a trigger-happy cowboy.

 

[BillJ]

It's the beautiful thing about entertainment, it's open to a how a person personally reads the information. You're as welcome to your interpretation as I am to mine.

 

[horatio83]

Indeed, I always love to get to know different readings of a movie or a book.
I also think that it was a good move to not go into too much details about the conspiracy. Not merely because it might have little dramatic merit but also because it opens up the movie to different readings.
You could e.g. ask Scotty's question of whether Azetbur was part of the conspiracy. Seems unlikely based on what we see in the movie but it is an idea one can play with.

 

[BillJ]

Indeed, I always love to get to know different readings of a movie or a book.
I also think that it was a good move to not go into too much details about the conspiracy. Not merely because it might have little dramatic merit but also because it opens up the movie to different readings.
You could e.g. ask Scotty's question of whether Azetbur was part of the conspiracy. Seems unlikely based on what we see in the movie but it is an idea one can play with.

"I'll bet that Klingon bitch killed her father."

I really think that Scotty is giving voice to what the audience may be thinking at that point in the film.

 

[sonak]

See I think Starfleet sent someone they thought would be trigger-happy when it came to Klingons. They thought with Kirk's history that he wouldn't be able to hold back when the shooting started.

huh? Since when was Kirk "trigger-happy" when it came to the Klingons? In TSFS, he tries to save Kruge even after David has been murdered, and he doesn't seem trigger happy toward them in TFF either.

Captain's log, Stardate 9522.6. I've never trusted Klingons, and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of my boy. To me our mission to escort the Chancellor of the Klingon High Council to a peace summit ...is problematic, at best. Spock says this could be an historic occasion, and I'd like to believe him. But how on earth can history get past people like me?

If you want to instigate a situation you send someone who may have personal issues with the people you're meeting.

he has his personal feelings, but as we see during the part where he surrenders rather than potentially start a war, he is definitely not trigger happy.

A guy who avoids firing or raising shields even when the bird-of-prey is coming toward them is the opposite of trigger happy.

 

[BillJ]

he has his personal feelings, but as we see during the part where he surrenders rather than potentially start a war, he is definitely not trigger happy.

A guy who avoids firing or raising shields even when the bird-of-prey is coming toward them is the opposite of trigger happy.

I'm not talking about the outcome but what may have been a driving reason to put him in command of the mission. The conspirators would have known about Kirk losing his son and that the Klingon government supported Kruge's actions.

 

[sonak]

he has his personal feelings, but as we see during the part where he surrenders rather than potentially start a war, he is definitely not trigger happy.

A guy who avoids firing or raising shields even when the bird-of-prey is coming toward them is the opposite of trigger happy.

I'm not talking about the outcome but what may have been a driving reason to put him in command of the mission. The conspirators would have known about Kirk losing his son and that the Klingon government supported Kruge's actions.

okay, could be. I'm just saying that Kirk had never given an indication before that he'd let his personal feelings regarding the Klingons interfere with his professional responsibilities.


If that was their motivation, then they didn't know Kirk very well.

 

[BillJ]

okay, could be. I'm just saying that Kirk had never given an indication before that he'd let his personal feelings regarding the Klingons interfere with his professional responsibilities.


If that was their motivation, then they didn't know Kirk very well.

Chang could've even pushed the idea to his co-conspirators in Starfleet because he obviously wanted a shot at Kirk in battle.

 

[Maurice]

I think some of you are missing the point that Cartwright himself seems taken aback by the CinC's report about the peace talks. I think Spock got the head of Starfleet to agree to send Kirk, and Cartwright and his conspirators had to react to that. After all, Valeris "volunteered" at the last minute.

 

[BillJ]

I think some of you are missing the point that Cartwright himself seems taken aback by the CinC's report about the peace talks. I think Spock got the head of Starfleet to agree to send Kirk, and Cartwright and his conspirators had to react to that. After all, Valeris "volunteered" at the last minute.

I see your point. But I have a hard time believing someone as highly placed as Cartwright wouldn't be "in the know" about something as big as peace talks with the Klingons.

Even then, Chang was in Gorkon's inner circle and would've probably spread the information to co-conspirators on both sides of the border the moment he caught wind of it.