TOS movies are so flawed

[Thomas Elliot]

I really love TOS movies. It's a great saga, I love how most of them end while leading right into the next. I love the stories, characters, visuals, all that.

But I have to admit that reading about the plots prior to watching them and getting past the nostalgia and novelty of a big budget, epic take on this 60s science fiction show, there's quite a bit of big flaws that I'd be complaining loudly about had I watched them when they first came out.

The Motion Picture
Actually I can't think of anything really wrong with this film. Moving on.

The Wrath of Khan
Kirk gets a son out of nowhere. That's fine but he seems so generic. A bland pretty boy with blond hair. I would expect him to have at least interesting character traits.

The Search for Spock
What the hell happened to Saavik? Why is she acting like that? Oh well, I get why they had to recast. I don't get the reasoning to have her talk like a robot though.

And why introduce Kirk has a son just to kill him off in the next movie?

The Voyage Home
Great film. But if it's that easy to go back in time, why don't more people do it, and why isn't the timeline all messed up because of it?
And why is Kirk so cheerful and upbeat. His son has just been murdered!

The Final Frontier
Spock has an emotional half-brother all of a sudden. Shenanigans. And the premise itself is kind of silly, even by sci-fi standards. Why would they believe that there is actually a supernatural being out there, and that it's God. I can imagine people in our time believing that a vast power would be God or a god. But after witnessing V'ger, and the whale communicating thing, wouldn't it be more likely to assume it's some kind of alien being or creature and not the creator of the entire universe?

The Undiscovered Country
Captain Kirk, now you're upset over the death of your son?
And weren't you guys all chilling and friendly with the Klingons at the end of FF?
Now Kirk and his crew are back to being racist towards Klingons, and not only that Starfleet is suddenly full of space racists?
Did we really have to have Worf's great grandfather be Kirk's lawyer?
I liked the lines "You should hear Shakespere in the original Klingon. But when the Klingons are constantly quoting Shakespere it starts to take me out the movie.

I love all the movies, but these are some issues I have with them.

 

[fireproof78]

Actually I can't think of anything really wrong with this film. Moving on.

Kirk is an asshole. Big problem.

Kirk gets a son out of nowhere. That's fine but he seems so generic. A bland pretty boy with blond hair. I would expect him to have at least interesting character traits.

That wasn't the biggest problem. I like the history off the screen. But, he is very bland.

More my issue is the mind control bugs and just how taken in Kirk gets by Khan's machinations..

And why introduce Kirk has a son just to kill him off in the next movie?

Because Kirk's son had to be a hero.

And why is Kirk so cheerful and upbeat. His son has just been murdered!

Technically it had been several months (six I think) and his mind is probably been distracted by being fugitives from Starfleet, as well as Spock's rehab. His mind is elsewhere.

Why would they believe that there is actually a supernatural being out there, and that it's God. I can imagine people in our time believing that a vast power would be God or a god. But after witnessing V'ger, and the whale communicating thing, wouldn't it be more likely to assume it's some kind of alien being or creature and not the creator of the entire universe?

Why not? Why not have an open mind towards it instead of assuming? Everyone else is skeptical that it is God, but each representative species highlights a familiar creation myth.

I get all your issues with the films, and they are definitely flawed. But, they are enjoyable for the most part (aside from TMP and TSFS).

 

[Dukhat]

The Motion Picture
Actually I can't think of anything really wrong with this film. Moving on.

I would think that TMP would be the most flawed film, for a multitude of reasons. Hmm.

The Wrath of Khan

Kirk gets a son out of nowhere. That's fine but he seems so generic. A bland pretty boy with blond hair. I would expect him to have at least interesting character traits.

It's pretty obvious that David gets 100% of his character traits from his mother, so I don't really see a problem there.

The Search for Spock

What the hell happened to Saavik? Why is she acting like that? Oh well, I get why they had to recast. I don't get the reasoning to have her talk like a robot though.

They wanted to downplay the idea that she was half-Romulan and prone to emotional tendencies. But yeah, other than that she seems like a completely different character.

And why introduce Kirk has a son just to kill him off in the next movie?

Because the writers needed an excuse as to why Genesis was a failure, and they threw David under the bus to get it.

The Voyage Home

Great film. But if it's that easy to go back in time, why don't more people do it, and why isn't the timeline all messed up because of it?

Because you apparently need a Vulcan to do the correct computations or else your ship will fry in the sun.

And why is Kirk so cheerful and upbeat. His son has just been murdered!

He had a job to do (you know, save the Earth and all that), and being upset about his son would have gotten in the way of doing his job.

The Final Frontier

Spock has an emotional half-brother all of a sudden. Shenanigans. And the premise itself is kind of silly, even by sci-fi standards. Why would they believe that there is actually a supernatural being out there, and that it's God. I can imagine people in our time believing that a vast power would be God or a god. But after witnessing V'ger, and the whale communicating thing, wouldn't it be more likely to assume it's some kind of alien being or creature and not the creator of the entire universe?

I've commented ad nauseum about how bad this film is, so I'm not going to reiterate that here.

The Undiscovered Country

Captain Kirk, now you're upset over the death of your son?
And weren't you guys all chilling and friendly with the Klingons at the end of FF?
Now Kirk and his crew are back to being racist towards Klingons, and not only that Starfleet is suddenly full of space racists?
Did we really have to have Worf's great grandfather be Kirk's lawyer?
I liked the lines "You should hear Shakespere in the original Klingon. But when the Klingons are constantly quoting Shakespere it starts to take me out the movie.

This movie had to be made because the previous movie sucked so bad, so they weren't going to acknowledge anything that happened in the previous movie at all. They wanted to pretend it didn't exists. And yes, being racists was kind of the point.

 

[fireproof78]

Because you apparently need a Vulcan to do the correct computations or else your ship will fry in the sun.

Well, like all Trek technology we only use a couple of times then never speak of it again

 

[Thomas Elliot]

I would think that TMP would be the most flawed film, for a multitude of reasons. Hmm.

Kirk being an asshole I suppose, but it's explained that he IS being an asshole, not that we're supposed to ignore these things.
I guess one flaw is why does McCoy look like a dude from 1977 when he beams aboard the new Enterprise for the first time?
I'll have to rewatch it again. Maybe I'm still in awe of the special effects.

It's pretty obvious that David gets 100% of his character traits from his mother, so I don't really see a problem there.

His mom seemed kind of bland too. But yeah, that makes sense.

And yes, being racists was kind of the point.

No, I get that. You gotta break some eggs to make an omelette. And it worked for Meyers because it's considered one of the good movies. But it definitely seems to go against what's been established.
Kirk had some good lines:
"Don't trust them."
"They murdered my boy."
"Let them [die]!"

I saw this one before the previous two so I was expecting Kirk to have more of a relationship with his son, and maybe show some mourning in those two. It would have made Kirk's later motivation and anger more impactful.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Search for Spock
Why did Kruge kill his wife? It made for a twisted sense of loyalty and remorse but it made no sense. If his wife hadn't seen what was on the tape, what would have changed? I'm assuming he was going to beam her aboard. His crew saw what was on the tape, what was wrong with his wife knowing what was on it? Just an excuse to show how ruthless Kruge was?

 

[Dukhat]

Search for Spock
Why did Kruge kill his wife? It made for a twisted sense of loyalty and remorse but it made no sense. If his wife hadn't seen what was on the tape, what would have changed? I'm assuming he was going to beam her aboard. His crew saw what was on the tape, what was wrong with his wife knowing what was on it? Just an excuse to show how ruthless Kruge was?

Valkris wasn’t his wife. She was a spy working for him. And apparently Kruge felt that her knowledge of Genesis was a detriment to his plans. Why, I don’t know. Maybe it comes with the territory of being a Klingon spy.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Why not? Why not have an open mind towards it instead of assuming? Everyone else is skeptical that it is God, but each representative species highlights a familiar creation myth.

Because considering all that the Enterprise has been through, it's more reasonable that it would be an alien being, or some sort of cosmic anomaly rather than the Judeo-Christian God, which I assume Kirk and McCoy believe in according to this particular installment.
Yeah you can have an open mind, but I don't think it's that believable for people working at NASA to believe that earthquakes in the U.S. are the result of God turning his back on America.

 

[Lord Garth]

The Wrath of Khan
Kirk gets a son out of nowhere. That's fine but he seems so generic. A bland pretty boy with blond hair. I would expect him to have at least interesting character traits.

The Search for Spock
What the hell happened to Saavik? Why is she acting like that? Oh well, I get why they had to recast. I don't get the reasoning to have her talk like a robot though.

And why introduce Kirk has a son just to kill him off in the next movie?

The Voyage Home
Great film. But if it's that easy to go back in time, why don't more people do it, and why isn't the timeline all messed up because of it?
And why is Kirk so cheerful and upbeat. His son has just been murdered!

You're trying really hard with these to make this work. A little too hard. I'm not buying it.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

You're trying really hard with these to make this work. A little too hard. I'm not buying it.

To make what work? Like I'm just making up my criticisms to do...what exactly?

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Oh yeah, I loved the reasoning behind "You should read it in the original Klingon."

"The Undiscovered Country" is a great title for Star Trek II, but unfortunately gives away the ending. It's a bit forced for Star Trek 6.
Gorkon claiming "you haven't experienced Shakespeare till you've read him in the original Klingon" sounds more like a joke he's making, than an allusion to Nazi Germany's claiming of the playwright as German. I like the idea, but I didn't get that impression that Klingons really believed or wanted to have people believe that he was Klingon.

Plumber is fantastic as Chang. His initial exchange with Kirk totally sells you on the idea that the Federation and the Klingons have been long time mortal enemies without actually having seen any TOS episodes. I never actually liked the Klingons in the TOS movies that much. They got wiped out quickly in TOS, skipped in II, and then we had Doc Brown playing a Klingon. He was okay I guess but too Doc Brown came through. Then in Final Frontier we had some random biker with his girlfriend wanting to take out Kirk. Oh, and that bloviating Klingon ambassador. I never bought the true menace of the Klingon Empire. But Chang delivered it all in a single back and forth with Kirk. "One warrior to another."

But holy crap did they over do it with Chang quoting Shakespere all the damn time. Gorkon quoting it often makes sense and works. Chang saying "To be or not to be" in Klingon is just enough to ensure to the audience that yeah, Klingons are familiar and fans of Shakespere and it's part of their culture. But Chang's best line deliveries were when he's NOT quoting Shakespeare. Now him unintentionally quoting Hitler was great and worked because it seemed like either an unintentional sip of the tongue or a very telling coincidence.

I take back part of that. The altering of Chamberlain's quote for Chang was inspired.

 

[fireproof78]

Because considering all that the Enterprise has been through, it's more reasonable that it would be an alien being, or some sort of cosmic anomaly rather than the Judeo-Christian God, which I assume Kirk and McCoy believe in according to this particular installment.
Yeah you can have an open mind, but I don't think it's that believable for people working at NASA to believe that earthquakes in the U.S. are the result of God turning his back on America.

Ok. There is a wide spectrum in spiritual beliefs so allowing them to believe in God doesn't equal what you stated.

Regardless, I have no issue with their beliefs. Let them explore it. Why not? I read a whole book about an Apollo 17 astronaut and his personal faith. I found it interesting. I also have an uncle who works for NASA who is an atheist. Room for all.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Regardless, I have no issue with their beliefs. Let them explore it. Why not? I read a whole book about an Apollo 17 astronaut and his personal faith. I found it interesting. I also have an uncle who works for NASA who is an atheist. Room for all.

And I never said that NASA employees couldn't have belief in a deity. There's a difference between believing in God, and believing that a flood occurred, not because of atmospheric conditions but because gays are getting married.

I have no problem with Kirk and McCoy believing in God. Or not believing in God. The way they're depicted prior to FF, from what I've seen, it could have them go either way. They regularly say stuff like "Oh my God." But also, I figured since they're so far in the future, and they've already done away with money, racism, nationalism, I wouldn't be surprised if organized religion on Earth went the way of the dodo as well, or if not, had dramatically diminished. I don't think I ever saw rosaries, churches, yarmulkes or anything like that in Star Trek. Or maybe we just don't see them.

And as to the issue of exploring it, yeah sure, go for it. But the way they explored it wasn't portrayed very well at all, IMO. It makes the universe and future feel small if Kirk and McCoy immediately think a talking giant blue head is God, or that it could be. And honestly, from a SF point of view, it would make the universe feel small if they revealed that it WAS God, or Satan. Not that I think they need to adhere to an atheist or anti-theist perspective for Star Trek, but once you meet God, the creator of the universe where do you go from there? The mystery of outer space is drastically diminished.

And again, if they want to explore religious belief, that's fine. But the way they went about it seemed to be a little unbelievable for people in the 23rd century. And I'm guessing the Apollo 17 astronaut's personal faith is very comparable to what I'm describing. If I met a guy who had his ear reattached in this day and age, I wouldn't assume Jesus made it happen, I'd assume it was the work of a surgeon. But if lived in the time of Jesus, I'd think it was the result of something supernatural.

And as a Star Trek fan, it's hard to believe that this barrier could be where God is at when we've already seen god-like beings in hanging out in space in The Motion Picture and The Voyage Home.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Star Trek as a whole is pretty flawed. I just roll with it most of the time. V'ger will digitize half the galaxy but didn't think to wipe the muck off it's name plate when there's an obvious huge gap between the letters it spliced together? And that's the movie for intellectual fans?

 

[valkyrie013]

Always did feel that the Introduction of David, for him to be Poked in ST3 was a big letdown.. to me Kirk felt like a dead beat dad.. not even in his life, even in his adult life? I mean David is what? 25 or so? he went to school to be a Genisis scientist.. So I can sort of understand Carol saying .. Stay out of our lives.. I wouldn't have agreed, but thats me.. but Kirk not reaching out after David turned 18 to have some type of relationsship? I mean after ST 2 it seams they start a relationship of sorts.. I just don't like Introducing a long lost son/daughter thingy.. It makes the main character look like an deadbeat asshole.. But thats just me
Now if David was introduced and he became part of the crew? went back in time with Kirk to give them a father/son dynamic.. in ST4.. I would have liked that better
Have the same pet peeve with Troi..

Spoiler: Potential Picard Spoiler

Father ded, Sister ded, first son ded, second son ded.. Come on! give her a break!!

Please make sure spoilers are used for current series. Thanks, The Management

 

[fireproof78]

And I never said that NASA employees couldn't have belief in a deity. There's a difference between believing in God, and believing that a flood occurred, not because of atmospheric conditions but because gays are getting married.

I'm sure I'm missing something here so I'll just leave it alone. Suffice to say I feel this a rather odd characterization in terms of the film.

I have no problem with Kirk and McCoy believing in God. Or not believing in God. The way they're depicted prior to FF, from what I've seen, it could have them go either way. They regularly say stuff like "Oh my God." But also, I figured since they're so far in the future, and they've already done away with money, racism, nationalism, I wouldn't be surprised if organized religion on Earth went the way of the dodo as well, or if not, had dramatically diminished. I don't think I ever saw rosaries, churches, yarmulkes or anything like that in Star Trek. Or maybe we just don't see them.

Aside from the chapel in "Balance of Terror" I think you might be right. Which is fine by me if spirituality is a more personal thing.

And as to the issue of exploring it, yeah sure, go for it. But the way they explored it wasn't portrayed very well at all, IMO. It makes the universe and future feel small if Kirk and McCoy immediately think a talking giant blue head is God, or that it could be. And honestly, from a SF point of view, it would make the universe feel small if they revealed that it WAS God, or Satan. Not that I think they need to adhere to an atheist or anti-theist perspective for Star Trek, but once you meet God, the creator of the universe where do you go from there? The mystery of outer space is drastically diminished.

I disagree.

 

[Desert Kris]

Always did feel that the Introduction of David, for him to be Poked in ST3 was a big letdown.. to me Kirk felt like a dead beat dad.. not even in his life, even in his adult life? I mean David is what? 25 or so? he went to school to be a Genisis scientist.. So I can sort of understand Carol saying .. Stay out of our lives.. I wouldn't have agreed, but thats me.. but Kirk not reaching out after David turned 18 to have some type of relationsship? I mean after ST 2 it seams they start a relationship of sorts.. I just don't like Introducing a long lost son/daughter thingy.. It makes the main character look like an deadbeat asshole.. But thats just me

I've sometimes seen people dismiss Kirk's relationship with David as being a deadbeat dad, which has always seemed like an oversimplification. I was under the impression that a dead beat parent is a parent who doesn't support the other parent with resources (money, ect.). Also my impression has been that the deadbeat parent abandons the child to the other parent, to raise on their own, being unwilling to help. A quick check of definitions also indicates that the deadbeat disrespects the parent with custody in front of their offspring, and disregards the custodial parent's feelings.

So:
Why would anyone assume that Kirk wouldn't have been willing to help provide resources to Carol Marcus? Kirk is flawed, but he believes in taking responsibility, to a certain extent. If I had to interpret Kirk's flaws as presented by the movie, if he genuinely believes he has been freed of obligation, he will move on, he is bad with follow-through sometimes (but Carol Marcus didn't want him to follow through!). Kirk had the salary or resources that were due to a captain of a prestige starship, the Enterprise, which I'm sure he would have been willing to provide part of to Carol Marcus. Why would people assume that Kirk wouldn't be willing to do that?!

The impression I get from the dialogue is that Carol Marcus didn't ask for and didn't need Kirk to provide resources to help raise David. She's a scientist, and we see her working on a highly classified research project. We don't know where she was at when she gave birth to David, but I'm sure there were laws in place to make sure Kirk provided for her and David, if she needed resources. But maybe she had the support network and resources she needed, without having to ask or force Kirk. But also, why would we assume that Kirk wouldn't take responsibility, and end up with Carol forcing the issue in court?!

Kirk and Carol were in a consensual relationship with each other. Carol also chose the consequences of her actions as much as Kirk. Between them, they worked out how David would be raised. Looking at the dialogue and performances, it looks like Kirk respected Carol's desire that he "Stayed away" stayed out of both their lives. Kirk respected her wishes! He didn't undermine her in front of David. Who undermined who in front of David? David doesn't even know that Kirk is his father! David is contemptuous of Kirk, based on his perception of Kirk through what Carol might have said about him, and David's own impressions about Starfleet people. Carol cut Kirk out of David's life entirely! Look at Shatner's performance, he looks very sad about having been cut out of the life of his son.

Why, why, why do people think that Kirk is a deadbeat? He made choices in his career, which saw him make the best use of his talents for Starfleet. Given how much good he accomplished, how driven he was to be constructive, productive, and dedicated to precision peacekeeping. Yes, Kirk certainly has flaws. But Carol isn't above criticism, either. Kirk is not a deadbeat.

 

[valkyrie013]

As in.. He didn't want to be in David's life.. Or was frozen out.. Deadbeat is probably to strong a word, but showing Kirk as someone who would not raise a son, who wouldn't push to be in his sons life in anyway.. Even when he was over 18..

Sulu was done right.. Might not have been there for everything but was apart of demoras life. And knew her father.. David didn't even know Kirk was his dad! So yeah.. Showing Kirk as an ass was wrong in my book.

 

[DonIago]

If Carol aggressively didn't want Kirk in David's life, was Kirk supposed to do...what? Pursue legal action? Be a stalker?

I prefer to think Kirk tried to do what he thought was best for all parties. Maybe he was wrong, but it wouldn't be the first or worst time Kirk made a mistake.

 

[Desert Kris]

As in.. He didn't want to be in David's life..

Shatner's performance indicates that he was sad, as if he did want to be part of David's life, but respected Carol's wishes, over his own feelings.

Or was frozen out..

Which is what sounds like happened. It's sounds like Carol froze him out of his own son's life, even though she knew Kirk's career was important to him, and he was willing to juggle both.

Deadbeat is probably to strong a word

Yes, it is.

but showing Kirk as someone who would not raise a son

We are not given indication that he didn't want to. We are given more evidence that Carol definitely didn't want Kirk in Carol or David's life, way more evidence than anything that might imply that Kirk didn't want to be involved to the extent that he could.

who wouldn't push to be in his sons life in anyway..

When he's been asked to stay away!? That sounds creepy, like a stalker.

David didn't even know Kirk was his dad!

You think it is Kirk's fault that Carol didn't tell David who his father was? Why is Kirk responsible for Carol's sins?

So yeah.. Showing Kirk as an ass was wrong in my book.

The movie does not show Kirk that way.