TOS movies are so flawed

[valkyrie013]

Get a lawyer? Yes if it comes to it.. I doubt he wasn't asking for full custody or anything..
Carol was being Very selfish.. It takes 2 to have a baby, and a father who wants to be in his sons life deserves that.. Plenty of divorced people with kids that the mom would love if the father didn't come by at all, but wonderful law .. He's entitled to at least visit, or even joint custody.. Or weekends..
At the very least.. He agreed to stay away .. But regrets it very much
And again.. David isn't a kid in the movie.. Carol should have told him that Kirk was his dad and visited him.. Or At least talked.. When he grew up..

 

[DonIago]

It takes 2 to have a baby

I'd suggest not saying this around any single parents.

 

[Sgt_G]

Why not? It's the truth. It does take two to have (make) a baby. Yes, it can take just one parent to raise the child, but that wasn't what Valkyrie was saying (which I'm sure you knew).

 

[suarezguy]

why introduce Kirk has a son just to kill him off in the next movie?

Fair point with that, it seems like really shock value-but effectively done. And aside from that there needed to be some significant price for Kirk to pay to getting Spock back and breaking the rules to do so, something more meaningful than losing the Enterprise, to balance that Spock was brought back from the dead.

And that we don't have a lot of attachment to David, but understand Kirk does, is probably a big part of why it isn't more disliked, more slammed for being at least in big part shock value (like killing off Rene in Generations sometimes is).

I really love TOS movies. It's a great sWhat the hell happened to Saavik? Why is she acting like that? Oh well, I get why they had to recast. I don't get the reasoning to have her talk like a robot though.

I think that generally is considered a weak point, at least by people who don't like the film overall, consider it a weak follow-up to TWoK. To love the movie you probably have to be really invested in Kirk/McCoy/Spock, if so then that Spock was brought back excuses most other faults.

The Voyage Home
Great film. But if it's that easy to go back in time, why don't more people do it, and why isn't the timeline all messed up because of it?

LOL, some things you have to suspend disbelief over and the film does an OK job of making the easiness of that fit with its overall lighthearted tone.

Why would they believe that there is actually a supernatural being out there, and that it's God. I can imagine people in our time believing that a vast power would be God or a god. But after witnessing V'ger, and the whale communicating thing, wouldn't it be more likely to assume it's some kind of alien being or creature and not the creator of the entire universe?

Well I think Sybok somehow had a convincing vision of it, then convinced people to trust him.

 

[valkyrie013]

Yes, thats what i was talking about, Kirk and Carol got together, and decided to play twister, and David resulted..
Not saying Carol didn't raise him properly, he seemed like a well rounded kid who seemed to be very smart in that he was working on the Genisis project with his mom..
Just saying, showing Kirk knowingly give up on raising his son, and takes the cheap way out when Carol asks him to stay away just , to me, paints him in a non flattering light.. To me Kirk in my mind would have owned up to it and been part of davids life, even if its just through subspace, or seeing him when he's in port. And he had that right, under the law, to be part of his life, no matter what Carol wanted.
Anyways..
Wonder what happened to Kirk's nephew after his dad died? owell

 

[fireproof78]

KIRK: I did what you wanted. ...I stayed away. ...Why didn't you tell him?
CAROL: How can you ask me that? Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine, not chasing through the universe with his father. ... Actually, he's a lot like you. In many ways. Please tell me what you're feeling.

I never thought that Kirk was just an absentee father. He stayed away because Carol asked him to do so. He demonstrates respect to Carol by acknowledging her request. Acknowledging she had her separate goals and at that time he felt it was the best choice. He might not of liked it but that shows the kind of respect I think Kirk embodies.

 

[DonIago]

Why not? It's the truth. It does take two to have (make) a baby. Yes, it can take just one parent to raise the child, but that wasn't what Valkyrie was saying (which I'm sure you knew).

Or it takes one parent and a sperm bank, as an example. Regardless of intent, it seems disrespectful to those who choose to raise children on their own to imply that they're somehow 'less'.

At least, I wouldn't say such a thing to a single parent. You do you.

 

[Nyotarules]

KIRK: I did what you wanted. ...I stayed away. ...Why didn't you tell him?
CAROL: How can you ask me that? Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine, not chasing through the universe with his father. ... Actually, he's a lot like you. In many ways. Please tell me what you're feeling.

I never thought that Kirk was just an absentee father. He stayed away because Carol asked him to do so. He demonstrates respect to Carol by acknowledging her request. Acknowledging she had her separate goals and at that time he felt it was the best choice. He might not of liked it but that shows the kind of respect I think Kirk embodies.

I use to think Kirk took the cowards way out, Marcus gave him a get out clause and he took it. However life is complex, they made a bad decision, and both suffered for it in the end. We all know its possible to be a single parent and keep in touch with your child without having any legal custody, (my parents managed it) Carol's excuse on examination is pretty pathetic and selfish, there was no indication that being a father and being a Starfleet officer was an incompatible choice.

 

[Nyotarules]

Or it takes one parent and a sperm bank, as an example. Regardless of intent, it seems disrespectful to those who choose to raise children on their own to imply that they're somehow 'less'.

At least, I wouldn't say such a thing to a single parent. You do you.

As a single parent I saw nothing 'less' in the statement, until cloning is possible and legal, it takes two humans to biologically make a child.

 

[diankra]

The Final Frontier isn't in itself a bad film, there are some very good shots.
But it is not a good Star Trek film, or a good film within its budget. Shatner is trying get to make a 60 million film, not a 30 million Star Trek film.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Fair point with that, it seems like really shock value-but effectively done. And aside from that there needed to be some significant price for Kirk to pay to getting Spock back and breaking the rules to do so, something more meaningful than losing the Enterprise, to balance that Spock was brought back from the dead.

That's a good point from a story-telling POV.

LOL, some things you have to suspend disbelief over and the film does an OK job of making the easiness of that fit with its overall lighthearted tone.

Of course. It's worth overlooking for the great sci-fi/comedy we got. Same thing for Starfleet being full of racists. I don't think it works in the context of all the films and the show, but for a movie on its own, it works great. It's only after a few re-watches am I thinking "hey, wait a minute..."

Well I think Sybok somehow had a convincing vision of it, then convinced people to trust him.

I'm sure there's always going to be gullible people out there or maybe just people who are in search of something greater than their own perception of the world, but it still doesn't work for me. This was William Shatner's idea for a story, right?
I can understand changing things up in order that they don't get in the way of telling a good story.
For the Voyage Home we get a time-travel story, and a new approach for a Star Trek film being that it's a comedy. It was a refreshing change. Plus time-travel happened quite a bit in TOS.
TUC has Starfleet and even the Enterprise crew suddenly racist BUT it feeds into the Klingon vs Starfleet conflict, and reflects what's going on with the Soviet Union. And partially ties into TNG.

FF has too many hurdles to overcome though and the trade off isn't worth it. The first thing that comes to mind is that why doesn't everyone just think it's an alien entity controlling him, or feeding him this vision. And as a viewer I can't buy that it's going to be God that they find, so there's no mystery. And Shatner originally wanted it to be Satan they found. That would have been even worse.
I think Shatner's idea of exploring religion is an interesting approach. Star Trek often provides social commentary on what's going on, and televangelism was big at the time. So I appreciate Shatner's general premise of exploring the idea. But he could have taken the idea further in order to fit better in the ST universe.

That said, I don't dislike the film. In fact, I very much enjoy it.

 

[fireproof78]

Plus time-travel happened quite a bit in TOS.

In point of fact the slingshot method was used specifically to travel to the past, and the crew remarked it could be used again for historical study.

TUC has Starfleet and even the Enterprise crew suddenly racist BUT it feeds into the Klingon vs Starfleet conflict, and reflects what's going on with the Soviet Union. And partially ties into TNG.

The partial ties are extremely deliberate and "Unification" and TUC were built so that if viewers wanted to figure out what Spock was talking about in Unification they would need to see TUC.

Honestly, the "suddenly racist" thing is not something that strikes me as very odd. Only two movies ago we had the Klingon Ambassador saying "There will be no peace as long as Kirk lives!" to the Federation President. Even in TOS' "Day of the Dove" Kang states, rather plainly, "We need no reason to hate humans."

I think the nature of the Klingons asking for helped exposed some raw nerves, kind of like O'Brien in "The Wounded."

And Shatner originally wanted it to be Satan they found. That would have been even worse.

Good thing Star Trek already did that so we didn't have to worry about it.

I think Shatner's idea of exploring religion is an interesting approach. Star Trek often provides social commentary on what's going on, and televangelism was big at the time. So I appreciate Shatner's general premise of exploring the idea. But he could have taken the idea further in order to fit better in the ST universe.

Because that's not what the studio wanted. The studio wanted a comedy, like TVH, and Shatner convinced them he could do both a comedy as well as the serious exploration of religion and cult-style behavior that Shatner wanted.

We can see how that worked out.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Honestly, the "suddenly racist" thing is not something that strikes me as very odd. Only two movies ago we had the Klingon Ambassador saying "There will be no peace as long as Kirk lives!" to the Federation President. Even in TOS' "Day of the Dove" Kang states, rather plainly, "We need no reason to hate humans."

How do your two quotes from Klingons demonstrate precedence that Starfleet and the Enterprise crew are racists?

 

[Nyotarules]

How do your two quotes from Klingons demonstrate precedence that Starfleet and the Enterprise crew are racists?

The Cold war with the Klingons was around for decades, I doubt the average Starfleet officer or even UFP citizen would accept the idea of breaking bread with a former enemy so easily. Take RL how at the height of WW2 American citizens of Japanese descent were treated badly by their fellow Americans, I bet their fellow Americans did not consider the actions of the state racist.

 

[BillJ]

I find the films entertaining, which is really all that matters.

 

[fireproof78]

How do your two quotes from Klingons demonstrate precedence that Starfleet and the Enterprise crew are racists?

It illustrates the underlying hostility that exists between the two powers. And that's not just two quotes-that's two off the top of my head. Kirk's arguments to the Organians also illustrates how much he doesn't like Klingons and how they treat other worlds.

Its decades of tension and suddenly the Klingons are asking for help. It is a complete reversal of past relationships. And it uncovers that underlying tension and hatred that already existed.

 

[FormerLurker]

The Wrath of Khan
Kirk gets a son out of nowhere. That's fine but he seems so generic. A bland pretty boy with blond hair. I would expect him to have at least interesting character traits.

He hates the military.

And why introduce Kirk has a son just to kill him off in the next movie?

Isn't that how you do it?

Great film. But if it's that easy to go back in time, why don't more people do it, and why isn't the timeline all messed up because of it?

Who said that was easy?

I can imagine people in our time believing that a vast power would be God or a god. But after witnessing V'ger, and the whale communicating thing, wouldn't it be more likely to assume it's some kind of alien being or creature and not the creator of the entire universe?

"What does God need with a Starship?"

Did we really have to have Worf's great grandfather be Kirk's lawyer?

That was his grandfather.

 

[Maurice]

I really love TOS movies. It's a great saga, I love how most of them end while leading right into the next. I love the stories, characters, visuals, all that.

But I have to admit that reading about the plots prior to watching them and getting past the nostalgia and novelty of a big budget, epic take on this 60s science fiction show, there's quite a bit of big flaws that I'd be complaining loudly about had I watched them when they first came out.

[...]The Motion Picture
Actually I can't think of anything really wrong with this film. Moving on.[...]

I disagree. I wrote this about that (link).

As to TWOK, the scripts changed a lot re David and Kirk. Before they did some reshoots, this is how the parental reveal scene was written and presumably filmed:

DAVID​

Go back. I'm going to kill him.

CAROL​

(takes a breath)​

You do that and you'll have murdered
your father.
​

All react. David and Kirk, facing each other, are
turned to stone. Bones, Jedda and Chekov turn to look
at Carol, wondering. Terrell very casually takes the
phaser from Jedda.

​

126 NEW ANGLE (FORMERLY SCENE 134)

TERRELL​

(cool)​

I'll hold onto this.
​

But Kirk and Carol ignore them and walk towards each
other. There are tears in Carol's eyes. She reaches
up, trying to smile and touches his hair --

CAROL​

You've got a little grey --
​

She can't. Kirk takes her and holds her tightly, look-
ing at David, over her shoulder. He stands there,
stunned, looking back.

KIRK​

Carol. Is that true?
​

She nods --

KIRK​

(continuing)​

Why didn't you tell me?

DAVID​

She's making it up! My father was
Professor --

CAROL​

David, you're just making this
harder --​

So Kirk didn't even know he was a father. They changed it and created the scenario being argued about.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

It illustrates the underlying hostility that exists between the two powers. And that's not just two quotes-that's two off the top of my head. Kirk's arguments to the Organians also illustrates how much he doesn't like Klingons and how they treat other worlds.

Its decades of tension and suddenly the Klingons are asking for help. It is a complete reversal of past relationships. And it uncovers that underlying tension and hatred that already existed.

And none of that addresses Starfleet and the rest of the Enterprise crew suddenly making racist remarks that seem more at home in the 20th century. I don't remember Kirk telling the Orgonians that the Klingons stink and have disgusting table manners.

Admiral Cartwright: I must protest. To offer Klingons safe haven within Federation space is suicide. Klingons would become the alien trash of the galaxy.

Chekov: Guess who's coming to dinner."

Uhura: Did you see the way they ate?

The writing was trying way too hard to force this learning moment about racism and hit you over the head with it.

Cartwright talking about bringing the Klingon's to their knees and saying that allowing Klingons in is "suicide" makes sense in terms of the history we've seen so far. But going the extra mile to say they would become the "alien trash of the galaxy" sounds like something a white segregationist would say in 1950, or what "native-born" Americans said about the Irish prior to that. I get it's supposed to be irony. The black man is talking like a white racist from Earth's past! It still seems ham fisted.

Chekov's comment which is a reference to the 1967 film Guess Who's Coming to Dinner about white parents' disapproval of a black man marrying their daughter. Again, if it was a white racist using that reference in the latter part of the 20th century it would make sense.

And Uhura is really disgusted by the way they ate? The Enterprise crew has probably come into contact with all kinds of strange alien life forms prior to this, seen all kinds of crazy stuff, and come in contact with all the different kinds of cultures and customs in the Federation alone. But a Klingon eating with his hands, that's just beyond the pale!
The interesting thing is that Uhura was originally supposed to make the "guess who's coming to dinner" comment but Nichelle Nichols refused.

And this happened right after the previous film ended with Kirk rescued by a Klingon ship, Klaa apologizing to Kirk, and the Klingons partying with the Enterprise crew, Scotty drinking whiskey with Korrd, and Kirk even exchanging respectful salutes with a Klingon.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

The Cold war with the Klingons was around for decades, I doubt the average Starfleet officer or even UFP citizen would accept the idea of breaking bread with a former enemy so easily. Take RL how at the height of WW2 American citizens of Japanese descent were treated badly by their fellow Americans, I bet their fellow Americans did not consider the actions of the state racist.

You're comparing the situation to the Cold War, which its supposed to be, then comparing it to World War II. If the Klingon Empire had done a Pearl Harbor in the previous films it would make a little more sense but that didn't happen.