TOS movies are so flawed

[Thomas Elliot]

I disagree. I wrote this about that (link).

I rewatched a bit of The Motion Picture.

Anyway, when I first watched it, I thought it was a good scene. It was disturbing so there was an element of horror added to this exploration of outer space, it made the whole thing feel more "realistic" that mistakes like this might happen as they do in real life, and I got the impression that it was Kirk's fault, so it showed that he was wrong to force himself into being Captain again.

Now when rewatching it, I realized that was Sonak, the Vulcan Kirk was talking to earlier. Kind of a crap way of introducing him just to use as fodder for shock value. But hey, lets do the suggested body horror angle as an excuse to get Spock back. "I want another Vulcan." Might as well just ask Starfleet to call and see if Spock's available. Why even introduce that character as being Vulcan? The only good thing is that it gives the audience the idea that Vulcans in Starfleet are somewhat common, and that Spock is not just some unique oddity.

Here's the real messed up thing. Right after this happens Kirk's told that an officer is waiting to come up but refuses to be beamed aboard. Kirks gives a little smile, because he knows it's that cantankerous Bones McCoy and his irrational fear of transporters. You just turned two people inside out trying to transport them, why are you smiling for???? I read that that was cut for the theatrical release so maybe I'm viewing the Director's Cut? It comes across as very inappropriate.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And none of that addresses Starfleet and the rest of the Enterprise crew suddenly making racist remarks that seem more at home in the 20th century. I don't remember Kirk telling the Orgonians that the Klingons stink and have disgusting table manners.

No, but he doesn't exactly paint a pretty picture though

KIRK: Gentlemen, I have seen what the Klingons do to planets like yours. They are organised into vast slave labour camps. No freedoms whatsoever. Your goods will be confiscated. Hostages taken and killed, your leaders confined. You'd be far better off on a penal planet. Infinitely better off.

KIRK: And unfortunately, though the Klingons are brutal and aggressive, they are most efficient.

And Chekov does make a rather unfavorable comparison

KLINGON: Frankly, I never liked Earthers. They remind me of Regulan blood worms.
CHEKOV: That Cossack.

 

[fireproof78]

And none of that addresses Starfleet and the rest of the Enterprise crew suddenly making racist remarks that seem more at home in the 20th century. I don't remember Kirk telling the Orgonians that the Klingons stink and have disgusting table manners.

It does for me.

 

[suarezguy]

I'm sure there's always going to be gullible people out there or maybe just people who are in search of something greater than their own perception of the world, but it still doesn't work for me.

Sybok was maybe/probably brainwashing people but the film is too inconsistent about that and way too vague about the details of how it worked.

Now Kirk and his crew are back to being racist towards Klingons, and not only that Starfleet is suddenly full of space racists?

TUC has Starfleet and even the Enterprise crew suddenly racist BUT it feeds into the Klingon vs Starfleet conflict, and reflects what's going on with the Soviet Union.

Yes a fair criticism of TUC is that it tries to portray the Federation-Klingon conflict as pretty much being primarily racism of both against the other and maybe misunderstandings in general rather than that the the Klingon society actually was for militaristic expansion and conquest as well as internally autocratic if not totalitarian.

Trying to portray the Federation and Klingons as equally at fault for the conflict seemed pretty unconvincing and unfair to the Federation but worked within the film itself-and the film, despite seeming unfair to the Federation, vaguely admits the Klingon society was not really a good society and was more at fault for the conflict but has been and is willing to change. And the film does seem to have the view that real-life societies need to be willing to at least move on from the past, including wrongs done then, to move forward.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

...and then we had Doc Brown playing a Klingon. He was okay I guess but too Doc Brown came through.

Star Trek III came out a year before Back to the Future. What you saw in Kruge's character was Christopher Lloyd's demeanor.

 

[fireproof78]

Trying to portray the Federation and Klingons as equally at fault for the conflict seemed pretty unconvincing and unfair to the Federation but

I'm not sure the Federation was being painted as equally responsible save for the film's actual conflict.

I think the racism facet was played up for the film but it wasn't the only motivation for the antagonists.

 

[Nyotarules]

Chekov's comment which is a reference to the 1967 film Guess Who's Coming to Dinner about white parents' disapproval of a black man marrying their daughter. Again, if it was a white racist using that reference in the latter part of the 20th century it would make sense.

So you think in universe a romantic relationship between a Klingon and a human or any other UFP species would not raise eyebrows? Chekov's comment makes sense, folks could barely shrug off a Vulcan with a Human. 70 years later, re two human generations later, a Klingon and Human still had issues or at least the humans B'Lanna Torres dealt with did in her childhood.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

So you think in universe a romantic relationship between a Klingon and a human or any other UFP species would not raise eyebrows?

I never said it wouldn't. My issue is the writers having Chekov make a comment that is a reference to a 1967 film about racism towards blacks. Is Chekov familiar with the film, like how the Klingon's are familiar with Earth literature such as Shakespeare or how Spock is familiar with President Nixon meeting with China? If he is familiar with the film, then he's knowingly comparing Klingon's to black Americans in the 60s and identifying with racist whites of the time. What an asshole.

Of course, it could just be a figure of speech that Chekov is using, and he's unaware of its source to an American film about the racism that black Americans faced. Regardless, the audience is supposed to get the reference and view Chekov as having the same attitude as white segregationists in the 1960s. Okay, fine. I get it. But when you have that, in conjunction with Cartwright's comments about "alien trash of the galaxy" and Uhura saying, "did you see the way they ate" it seems off. Like an abrupt and out-out-character change just to fit the needs of the current plot. Which is fine from a commercial, mainstream POV. But as far as being consistent and inline with what we know of the characters and Starfleet it doesn't work. Again, we just saw the Enterprise crew celebrating with the Klingons in the last film.

 

[fireproof78]

For me TFF is the outlier not TUC.

 

[Nyotarules]

It fits the Chekov character, he spent TOS refering to people as Cossacks as an insult, so why would a 23rd century human male, from a United Earth where assuming people descended from the Cossack community still exist, still use the term as an ethnic slur? It shows that humanity is still flawed, despite their travelled experiences with meeting new civilisations.
Consider real life, do you think explorers of the past were less prejudiced just because they were explorers?

 

[Thomas Elliot]

It fits the Chekov character, he spent TOS refering to people as Cossacks as an insult, so why would a 23rd century human male, from a United Earth where assuming people descended from the Cossack community still exist, still use the term as an ethnic slur? It shows that humanity is still flawed, despite their travelled experiences with meeting new civilisations.

Then I'd expect him to continue using the cossack slur, instead of using a phrase meant to reference white racism towards blacks. And keep in mind that Uhura was originally intended as the one to say that line. So the line wasn't created with Chekov's previous use of "cossack" in mind.

Consider real life, do you think explorers of the past were less prejudiced just because they were explorers?

Show me where I said that explorers couldn't be prejudiced.

 

[Nyotarules]

Then I'd expect him to continue using the cossack slur, instead of using a phrase meant to reference white racism towards blacks. And keep in mind that Uhura was originally intended as the one to say that line. So the line wasn't created with Chekov's previous use of "cossack" in mind.


Show me where I said that explorers couldn't be prejudiced.

The Enterprise crew has probably come into contact with all kinds of strange alien life forms prior to this, seen all kinds of crazy stuff, and come in contact with all the different kinds of cultures and customs in the Federation alone. But a Klingon eating with his hands, that's just beyond the pale!

Your statement implies you expect the Enterprise crew to have a less provincial attitude due to their travel experiences. Travel does not always broaden the mind.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Your statement implies you expect the Enterprise crew to have a less provincial attitude due to their travel experiences. Travel does not always broaden the mind.

There's a difference between implying it's less likely and saying it's impossible. And if I was basing it solely on that, you might have a point. But it's in conjunction with everything else I cited, which you seem to be conveniently ignoring.

If it were some random explorer depicted as being disgusted by someone from another culture eating with their hands, I might not be as critical of it. It might still strike me as odd, like if Indiana Jones, along with Willie, was grossed out by the food given to them by the villagers in Temple of Doom. But this is said by Uhura, a character we're familiar with. If there's previous instances of her being grossed out so easily I might buy into it.

And if there was at least some substantial precedence of Starfleet and the Enterprise crew engaging in blatant bigotry throughout TOS and the TOS films it wouldn't seem so out-of-left-field. But the only thing people keep bringing up is Chekov, and how he threw around "cossack" when referring to a Klingon, American frontiersmen, and apparently some disembodied brains back in the 60s television series.

 

[scotpens]

...and then we had Doc Brown playing a Klingon. He was okay I guess but too Doc Brown came through.

Star Trek III came out a year before Back to the Future. What you saw in Kruge's character was Christopher Lloyd's demeanor.

Which most of the audience was already familiar with, having seen Lloyd play the Reverend Jim Ignatowski on the television sitcom Taxi.

 

[fireproof78]

And if there was at least some substantial precedence of Starfleet and the Enterprise crew engaging in blatant bigotry throughout TOS and the TOS films it wouldn't seem so out-of-left-field. But the only thing people keep bringing up is Chekov, and how he threw around "cossack" when referring to a Klingon, American frontiersmen, and apparently some disembodied brains back in the 60s television series.

Kirk is never kind towards Klingons. At best he is cordial, and at worst he will describe their worst traits to make sure Starfleet looks better. Even in TFF Kirk calls them "Klingon bastards." His salute towards Klaa is as half-hearted as it possibly can be. None of it is framed as a positive.

What TUC does is bring to light these long held pains and attitudes by suddenly shifting what the Klingons were in relationship to the Federation. Suddenly, they are potential allies, and that is uncomfortable. So, it is easier to treat them as villains, rather than potential allies.

 

[DonIago]

I've never been especially bothered by the racism on display in TUC, but I think I read the novelization (or at least some of it) before I saw the film, which helped explain why tensions were high. I'm also willing to accept that what's on display in TUC was generally stuff said behind closed doors from the perspective of the viewing audience in the past.

 

[Spectre Of The Fun]

Star Trek as a whole is pretty flawed. I just roll with it most of the time. V'ger will digitize half the galaxy but didn't think to wipe the muck off it's name plate when there's an obvious huge gap between the letters it spliced together? And that's the movie for intellectual fans?

Laughing. Yes good point. Big fail V'ger.

For me the best part is the why are we here, "our capacity to leap beyond logic", Kirk/Spock hand grasping philosophizing.

That and Ilia's bathrobe and heels (what Maurice calls "Probe Couture").

Also It's the first Star Trek feature to get this right: Security guard body armor.

Next Gen comes along and it's back to security guards in pajamas.

 

[fireproof78]

Also It's the first Star Trek feature to get this

Yeah, it's super dumb that body armor gets abandoned.

 

[Spectre Of The Fun]

Yeah, it's super dumb that body armor gets abandoned.

I like "The Apple" more than most. Marple came so close to making it. A helmet and body armor could have made the difference when one of Val's children came at him from behind with that club. Not to mention what chest armor could have done for Hendorff against those poisonous spores.

And what about the security guy with a phaser rifle in "Descent Pt 1" that gets shot by Lore's renegade Borg? Chest body armor and injury or death may have been prevented or minimized.

 

[fireproof78]

I like "The Apple" more than most. Marple came so close to making it. A helmet and body armor could have made the difference when one of Val's children came at him from behind with that club.

And what about the security guy with a phaser rifle in "Descent Pt 1" that gets shot by Lore's renegade Borg? Chest body armor and it may have been prevented.

Its demonstrates perfectly in "Heart of Glory" when Klingons are able to take a direct hit from a Starfleet phaser.