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The Muppets

Kirby

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I didn't see a thread on this yet, so what do you think of the new show? I've loved the Muppets since Sesame Street, and he new movie a few years ago was just fantastic; although the follow-up not so much.
I like the IDEA of what they're trying to do with the new show, it's just not working for me though.
1. The guest stars of the original Muppet Show were A/B list celebrities back in the day, and so farr we've had Elizabeth Banks, and Josh Grobin. Not on par with Julie Andrews and Steve Martin.
2. Who is the audience for this show? The humor mostly goes right over the head of my seven year old, and my thirteen year old thinks it's lame. My wife and I get it, but it's not that good.
3. Kermit and Miss Piggy broke up - stop beating us over the head with this, and focus on something else for a while.

Am I alone in this, or does anyone else feel the same?
 
I found the pilot fairly amusing, although the “reality show” format isn’t my cup of tea, and the modern Muppets are a shadow of their original selves. But episode 2 lost me. I was open to a more adult and “edgy” version of the Muppets, getting back to their roots in late-night TV, but episode 2 was something I don’t think the Muppets have ever been before: mean-spirited and cynical. Kermit has become an angry, neurotic jerk, Fozzie is committing felonies, and the characters are just being generally nasty to each other, with no sign of the affection that always underlaid their squabbles in the past. It didn’t feel like a story about the Muppets; it felt like a generic modern sitcom plot acted out by the Muppets. Which is lame. If the Muppets are going to do something in the vein of a contemporary TV trend, they should be spoofing and subverting it (Veterinarian’s Hospital, Pigs in Space), not just playing it out by the numbers. More importantly, it just wasn’t very funny. In the pilot, I laughed a good number of times, but very little amused me in the second episode.

As for the audience, the Muppets were originally largely for adults. After their debut on local TV, they rose to national prominence largely through appearances on late-night variety shows like The Tonight Show. And The Muppet Show was always for grownups to a large extent. This show is an attempt to get back to that. But I think it goes too far.
 
I don't think it's funny, and that's disappointing. These are all characters that I love. And I didn't even realize how bad it was until I was watching some other comedies that made me laugh pretty easily. It seems like they've spent way to much time on celebrity cameos and not enough on actually trying to tell funny jokes.
 
I don't think the show is all the way there yet, but I think there's a lot of potential. The Laurence Fishburne gag in last week's episode had me in tears.

I think it was Jerry Juhl who said that the ideal Muppet Show was "Frog 99, Chaos 98," and I think that's the one piece that's missing from this show.

In any event, after just how fucking dire Muppets Most Wanted was, I'm happy to see Muppets material being produced by people other than Bobin / Stoller.
 
I don't think the show is all the way there yet, but I think there's a lot of potential. The Laurence Fishburne gag in last week's episode had me in tears.

I thought it was just one more example of the show's petty and mean-spirited humor. In previous Muppet productions, there was always a degree of warmth and playfulness even to the arguments and insults. This was just Schadenfreude.


I think it was Jerry Juhl who said that the ideal Muppet Show was "Frog 99, Chaos 98," and I think that's the one piece that's missing from this show.

The main piece that's missing -- other than Jim Henson -- is Jerry Juhl himself. I don't think enough people appreciate just how crucial he was to the quality of Muppet productions. They got a lot weaker after he died.


In any event, after just how fucking dire Muppets Most Wanted was, I'm happy to see Muppets material being produced by people other than Bobin / Stoller.

I actually liked Most Wanted much better than the previous film. The movie The Muppets turned Kermit into a whiny milquetoast in order to make the new guy Walter the hero, but MMW had him get his groove back. But this show is getting Kermit wrong in the opposite way, making him too much of an angry, neurotic jerk.
 
Yeah, haven't seen episode 3 yet, but so far it's been disappointing. The funniest bit in my mind is in episode 2 with Leno and the candy dish. Other than that, it just feels like the humour misses its mark. And I do agree with Christopher. It goes too far in one direction. It needs to strike more of a balance.
 
The more adult tone works for the Muppets. They've always had that edge when Henson was in charge, they just were just better at hiding it. The second pilot of The Muppet Show was called "Sex and Violence" and they would constantly slip in jokes that clearly aren't intended for children. There's even an episode where Kermit snaps and fires Miss Piggy because she planted a fake story in tabloids that she and Kermit got married.

They really only became a kid's only thing after Henson died.
 
I liked the first two eps okay, but the weak link for me is, as always, Miss Piggy. I don't think she's a bad character per se, but I've never much liked her, and in the case of this show, I have no idea why anyone would agree to give her a talk show, much less watch it, as she's an unfunny, unpleasant moron. (The recurring gag about how she couldn't tell Kermit from Constantine in MWW was one of its best among many.) Ergo, I can't really root for Kermit and Co. to succeed with the show, and that's a real problem.
 
With Piggy, I think the problem, again, is that the show focuses only on the negative side of the characters. Piggy has always been a self-absorbed diva, but it's been clear that it's because of her deep well of insecurity, her need to prove her worth. And Kermit and the other Muppets -- and the viewers -- accepted her and put up with her because they saw that vulnerability beneath her prima-donna facade, and in her own way she appreciated them for it. But on this show, they hate her and talk about her as a holy terror. It's the same in microcosm with the Kermit-Piggy relationship. In the past, they were never overtly an item; it was more a Hepburn-Tracy "will they or won't they" romantic tension, or more of an "are they or aren't they" once we got to The Muppets Take Manhattan and the later shows. But the fact that Kermit might care about Piggy enough to become (or be) involved with her made her seem more sympathetic through his eyes. If Kermit could like her in spite of everything, then there must be something there worth valuing. But now, she and Kermit are over. There's nothing between them but regret and recrimination and the recognition that it didn't work. And he's talking to the camera about how working for her is a living hell. It's cold and ugly in comparison.
 
With Piggy, I think the problem, again, is that the show focuses only on the negative side of the characters. Piggy has always been a self-absorbed diva, but it's been clear that it's because of her deep well of insecurity, her need to prove her worth.
Sure, but again, that's no in-universe reason for her to headline a talk show. Above all, the most important trait for a talk show host, more important than being funny, is likability - see, Jay Leno's entire career. And Piggy is just not likable. It'd make more sense, and probably be a better show both in- and out-universe, if Fozzie were the host.


But the fact that Kermit might care about Piggy enough to become (or be) involved with her made her seem more sympathetic through his eyes. If Kermit could like her in spite of everything, then there must be something there worth valuing.
Yeah, the Kermit-Piggy relationship has never worked one bit for me, either, except maybe in Muppets Treasure Island, where I can at least tell myself that it's Smollett and Benjamina more than Kermit and Piggy. Again, I have no problem with Piggy being one of the crew, on the level of Gonzo or the Swedish Chef or what-not. But every time she pulls one of her diva antics, I can't help but think that she gets such a spotlight because she happens to be the only major notable Muppet apart from the hippie guitarist, rather than any inherent strength or interest in her character.

An instructive comparison for Piggy is Tintin's Bianca Castafiore. Hergé said that he never made much use of female characters because in Tintin's world, everyone suffers pratfalls and blows as a source of humor and visual gags, and it's just not anywhere near as funny seeing women get hurt. With Castafiore alone, he found a working gag in that our heroes couldn't abide to hear her sing, but still, in-universe, the rest of the world considered her a master opera singer. But, in this comparison, what is Piggy good at?
 
I liked the first two eps okay, but the weak link for me is, as always, Miss Piggy.


Yeah, I agree. I mean, as a character in general on the Muppets, she's Ok, but we already know she's quite the diva, and I guess that's part of my problem with this show. I've mentioned it before in one of the other threads, but I find her role on the new Muppets doesn't quite work here, as she's always more interested in herself, rather than her guests and the show she's anchoring. So, instead it comes across as divisive. Kermit would be so much better in that role, being the roving reporter he's played in the past, and he'd be free to do Jaywalking-like bits.

And I really hate the way they're treating the breakup. It adds another sour note to the show, and only emphases more the negative aspects of the show. In the past, despite differences, they'd all work with each other (the whole gang), but here the drama is emphasized, and there's some tension between muppets on a level we've never seen before. It's as if they've all become Statler & Waldorf, but taking things way too seriously.
 
Sure, but again, that's no in-universe reason for her to headline a talk show. Above all, the most important trait for a talk show host, more important than being funny, is likability - see, Jay Leno's entire career. And Piggy is just not likable. It'd make more sense, and probably be a better show both in- and out-universe, if Fozzie were the host.

No, I think Kermit would be the most natural host. He's the one with the most charisma and approachability (when written right), as well as the confidence to be a well-respected figure that people want to let into their homes each night. Fozzie is likeable enough, but he's too much of a bumbler and too lacking in self-confidence. He's a lovable loser, a natural-born sidekick, not really star material on his own.

But I agree it's the wrong role for Piggy. Her perennial role is as the wannabe star, someone who aspires to greatness and pretends she's already achieved it in the hopes of convincing herself and others that it's true.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure talk-show co-host is the right role for Fozzie either. I've never watched many late-night talk shows, but aren't the co-hosts usually the straight men? It's the hosts themselves who are the comedians.




Yeah, the Kermit-Piggy relationship has never worked one bit for me, either, except maybe in Muppets Treasure Island, where I can at least tell myself that it's Smollett and Benjamina more than Kermit and Piggy.

Back when the folks behind the Muppets were still keeping it ambiguous, I preferred to believe that the whole Kermit-Piggy romance was entirely in Piggy's mind. After all, that's how it seemed in the original show -- she would flirt and he would rebuff, and he would be frustrated when she acted as though they were an item. So the tendency of later productions to assume that they actually were a couple has never quite sat right with me.

Still, that's not what I was talking about. It wasn't them actually being an item, but the fact that Kermit was willing to put up with her at all and still count her as a friend and colleague and show her kindness when she needed it, despite her behavior.


Again, I have no problem with Piggy being one of the crew, on the level of Gonzo or the Swedish Chef or what-not. But every time she pulls one of her diva antics, I can't help but think that she gets such a spotlight because she happens to be the only major notable Muppet apart from the hippie guitarist, rather than any inherent strength or interest in her character.

Except that she was originally a fairly minor character on The Muppet Show and became a breakout character over time. So she's only notable because the writers saw potential in her and audiences responded to her. She was originally created as "Piggy Lee," a parody of jazz singer Peggy Lee, for a musical sketch on a variety show. According to The Muppet Wiki:

Miss Piggy soon developed into a major character, as the Muppet creators recognized that a lovelorn pig could be more than a one-note running gag. Frank Oz has said that while Fozzie Bear is a two-dimensional character, and Animal has no dimensions, Miss Piggy is one of the few Muppets to be fully realized in three dimensions.

I have to admit, while I've never been personally that fond of Piggy, Oz had a point in the above quote -- she does have a lot of layers and psychological complexity, a lot of inner contradictions. She's probably the most deeply, intricately neurotic character in a troupe full of neurotics and obsessives.


An instructive comparison for Piggy is Tintin's Bianca Castafiore. Hergé said that he never made much use of female characters because in Tintin's world, everyone suffers pratfalls and blows as a source of humor and visual gags, and it's just not anywhere near as funny seeing women get hurt.

Maybe that's why Piggy developed her karate expertise. It let her participate in the slapstick as the aggressor rather than the victim. And given the gender attitudes of the time, it was a comical subversion of expectations for a female character to be tougher than the males.


With Castafiore alone, he found a working gag in that our heroes couldn't abide to hear her sing, but still, in-universe, the rest of the world considered her a master opera singer. But, in this comparison, what is Piggy good at?

Glamour, self-promotion, self-delusion, and kicking ass. I'd say she's one of those people who are famous for being famous, who've created celebrity images around themselves that surpass their actual accomplishments. Not like a Hilton or a Kardashian, though, since she's not an heiress; according to her Wiki bio, she was raised on a farm (she is a pig, after all) and has spent her adult life running away from her humble origins.
 
I broke down and watched the third episode, and I actually really liked it. There were some good jokes in this one that I actually laughed out loud at. I'll stick with it for a little while longer.
 
I think the above may be more character analysis than even the writers and show runners have done!
 
The scenes with Kermit and Fozzy in episode 3 were great. Kermit and Fozzy have always been close friends, even though Kermit is very aware that Fozzy's jokes aren't the best. I especially loved Kermit walking Fozzy out to the car after he got hit by the dart. The line about Kermit understanding how he feels because he licked his third cousin causing the walls to melt was fantastic.
 
Did they already drop the Kermit's younger hotter pig girlfriend? She wasn't in 103 and I don't recall her back in 102 either.

I'm still enjoying the show.
 
Just watched episode 3 and wasn't terribly impressed. And those new human-like muppets kind of give me the creeps. Something felt off about Kermit's new Girlfriend in the pilot, and now with this girl that Gonzo is chasing, and I realized it's because they're making them look too human, sort of like the muppet version of the uncanny valley.
 
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