Starcraft Productions Blueprints of the Saladin/Hermes

[Wingsley]

I've been shuffling through some of my old TREK memorabilia, and I rediscovered my set of Saladin/Hermes starship plans, produced by Starcraft Productions in 1981.

Looking over these plans, I was, of course, impressed by the level of detail and the thoroughness of the plans. They were obviously based closely on the booklet of plans for the Constitution Class from the 1970's. I assume that the Saladin/Hermes plans and the Hermes plans are based on the dimensions and hull shapes of the TOS Enterprise.

One thing struck me about the Saladin/Hermes plans: the plans show an ENT-style pair of shuttlecraft launch bays on the underside of the saucer. The shuttlebay is supposedly located on Deck 8. (I thought that the saucer only had 8 or 9 decks, but not according to these plans.) This hangar is only on one deck; there is not "high bay" spilling over onto Deck 7. I also noticed a full-size Engine Room located at the rear of the saucer just ahead of the impulse engines. I would expect that the saucer's underside undercut ring to cut into the floor space of that room.

Another thing I've noticed about all of these plans is that there is no space for matter/antimatter fuel storage. None whatsoever.

Does anyone else want to chime in on these plans and whether or not everything "fits"?

 

[aridas sofia]

They're by my old comrade Allen Everhart. Allen was a prolific Trek blueprinter until he joined the Navy in the late 80s. I had a phone conversation with him a few days before he headed off to boot camp, and he was thrilled to be pursuing a dream. He signed onto the battleship Iowa and died in the turret explosion that killed 47 crewmen.

As for his layout, the M/AM storage is in the nacelles themselves, as they are in all TOS nacelles per episodes like "Elaan of Troyius" and "The Apple". I have the plans, but not where I am at the moment, so I can't comment on the internal layout beyond saying that he was going by the description in the Whitfield/Roddenberry authored "The Making of Star Trek", which describes the saucer as having eleven decks. This comes from the Matt Jefferies cross section in the book, and must include low-overhead spaces top and bottom to come to eleven. Franz Joseph took the number literally, and gave the ship eleven full decks, complaining all the while that the saucer couldn't accommodate them. That's why his plans look different from the 11 foot model -- he was "fixing" the exterior to bring it into compliance with that description, not realizing that either Jefferies never intended the partial decks to be counted, or intended them to be counted as just what he portrayed them to be -- partial decks. In any event, fans in the 70s and 80s took Franz Joseph as the final word on the subject and used the more liberally spaced saucer to create things like Allen's hangar decks and engineering room. (The location of which in the saucer, BTW also comes from TMoST and FJ).

 

[Wingsley]

Did anyone ever revisit this concept, trying to make a more plausible saucer layout?

Did anyone ever go back and redraw the Saladin/Hermes deck plans to actually try to fit a shuttlecraft hangar in the saucer?

Over the years, I became more of a believer in the Roddenberry/TNG design philosophy of nacelles in pairs. Despite this, these old Starcraft plans still intrigue me. How many "full decks" was the 11 foot model supposedly holding?

 

[GilmourD]

Did you guys notice that the registry falls in the 500 range, like the Kelvin? Hmmmm...

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Did you guys notice that the registry falls in the 500 range, like the Kelvin? Hmmmm...

The Kelvin's in the 0500 range.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

Did you guys notice that the registry falls in the 500 range, like the Kelvin? Hmmmm...

The Kelvin's in the 0500 range.

the Kelvin's from 1981?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

The Kelvin's in the 0500 range.

We better hide from The Wormhole now. He can smell that zero a mile away.

 

[Starscape]

Did anyone ever go back and redraw the Saladin/Hermes deck plans to actually try to fit a shuttlecraft hangar in the saucer?

Some time ago, I had a go at a rough layout for the location of shuttle bays in the saucer for my one-nacelle design. Mainly to see if there was enough room and to see how many shuttles it could accommodate. This was working on the principle of a 289 m Enterprise and a 6.7 m shuttle (and taking measurements from the model, which probably isn't very accurate):



There should be enough room to get a shuttle in one standard 3 m deck, but I guess that each bay would take up as much of the deck below as possible too.

 

[starburst]

That looks good, hints of the Kelvin (Im guessing by some time ago you made it before we saw the Kelvin), much prefer this placement to the dish to it simply hanging off the glowing sensor on the lower saucer.

 

[Starscape]

Thanks!

Yeah, I built that model ~ 2 years ago. It was an attempt to give the Saladin-type a more balanced look and to address other things, like shuttle-bays.

 

[trekkerguy]

I love this model. Very Kelvin like. Good foresight

 

[Wingsley]

Oh, without a doubt, Snowscape/Starscape has some very interesting designs in his gallery. I'm more partial to his Meteor and Dilligent.

 

[Wingsley]

They're by my old comrade Allen Everhart. Allen was a prolific Trek blueprinter until he joined the Navy in the late 80s. I had a phone conversation with him a few days before he headed off to boot camp, and he was thrilled to be pursuing a dream. He signed onto the battleship Iowa and died in the turret explosion that killed 47 crewmen.

As for his layout, the M/AM storage is in the nacelles themselves, as they are in all TOS nacelles per episodes like "Elaan of Troyius" and "The Apple". I have the plans, but not where I am at the moment, so I can't comment on the internal layout beyond saying that he was going by the description in the Whitfield/Roddenberry authored "The Making of Star Trek", which describes the saucer as having eleven decks. This comes from the Matt Jefferies cross section in the book, and must include low-overhead spaces top and bottom to come to eleven. Franz Joseph took the number literally, and gave the ship eleven full decks, complaining all the while that the saucer couldn't accommodate them. That's why his plans look different from the 11 foot model -- he was "fixing" the exterior to bring it into compliance with that description, not realizing that either Jefferies never intended the partial decks to be counted, or intended them to be counted as just what he portrayed them to be -- partial decks. In any event, fans in the 70s and 80s took Franz Joseph as the final word on the subject and used the more liberally spaced saucer to create things like Allen's hangar decks and engineering room. (The location of which in the saucer, BTW also comes from TMoST and FJ).

I'm sorry to hear about your friend, Mr. Everhart. What a way to go.

I hope I'm not igniting any controversy by asking this, but just out of curiosity, how many full-height decks could a TOS-style saucer hold? And what would the "partial" decks be? Jefferies tubes? Any idea on what the layout/cutaway would look like?

 

[aridas sofia]

Per Jefferies own cross section, there is room for eight "full height decks." Above the bridge, the is room for a nearly full-height area arranged like a balcony above an inside dome that covers the bridge. The two lowermost areas that were probably defined as decks in the written description in TMoST are, upon studying the illustration, not full-height. One is in the lower sensor dome (where the main phaser was likely intended to be), and one is the area immediately above the dome. The description says deck 11 has the phaser (and 11 would be the lower dome if the area above the bridge is counted as 0 -- since the bridge itself is said to be on 1). It says 9 and 10 are for cargo/freight and repair, and "miscellaneous activities". 9 is big enough for freight and repair, and that leaves 10 -- a low-height deck above the dome, for "miscellaneous".

There are 12 decks, but two are the domes, and two are partial height. Only eight are full height -- per Jefferies.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Interesting how "Elaan of Troyius" is cited, since that's one of the episodes that points most clearly to a central M/AM reactor, with the energy flowing through the dilithium crystals before being channeled to the nacelles (Scotty refers to the reactor in the singular, while standing over the "dilithium crystal articulation matrix").

You didn't think I wasn't gonna sit on the sidelines for long, did you?

 

[Captain Robert April]

Did anyone ever revisit this concept, trying to make a more plausible saucer layout?

It is one of the aspects that's stalled my own Enterprise deck plan project, although it's more a matter of arranging things and figuring out just how detailed I really wanna get. Do I want to show each and every cabin, or just an area marked "crew quarters" and have a few general arrangements on the side as examples?

Over the years, I became more of a believer in the Roddenberry/TNG design philosophy of nacelles in pairs. Despite this, these old Starcraft plans still intrigue me. How many "full decks" was the 11 foot model supposedly holding?

Actually, if you just go by the window placements and divide it up evenly, you can get ten and a half decks. It's when you start filling in the blanks that things can get a bit weird.

What really started bugging me about the lollipop designs was that scouts and destroyers are supposed to be smaller and faster than heavy cruisers, yet they have saucer sections just as large as the Enterprise, and only half the apparent warp capability. The lack of a proper engineering setup was another thing that started to bug me after a while.

Contrast that with the Stargazer. Now, with four nacelles, that is a long range scout ship! As for a good destroyer design, I think the Defiant (DS9) is perfect. Small, maneuverable, can pack a major punch and get the hell out of Dodge fast. Prior to that, maybe the Miranda class.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Interesting how "Elaan of Troyius" is cited, since that's one of the episodes that points most clearly to a central M/AM reactor...

Not unless you really want it to and beat it to fit.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I don't recall the nacelles even being mentioned in "Elaan of Troyius", whereas what Scotty's messing with is definitely in the general area of Main Engineering.

 

[Wingsley]

Well, when it comes to the Saladin/Hermes, I would think a more balanced design would be to have 2 nacelles, one above the saucer and one below, in an arrangement similar to the Stargazer. (Like maybe Vance's Akula?)

The thing I'm wondering is if there's room in that arrangement to include habitat for a crew of 200, a small hangar deck, at least one engine room, and room for supplies and fuel for essentially a scaled-down frigate/scout type starship. It would obviously be smaller and lighter than a Connie, but I'm scratching my head wondering if that saucer would have enough room. If you took the Saladin/Hermes and you tried the two-nacelle arrangement, each of the connecting pylons would add slightly to the ship's interior volume. But would that add enough for an engine room? Or would it be necessary to "Stargazerize" a design like Vance's Tokyo to add enough room?

 

[aridas sofia]

I don't recall the nacelles even being mentioned in "Elaan of Troyius", whereas what Scotty's messing with is definitely in the general area of Main Engineering.

Selective amnesia. Though you will of course once again say that pods aren't nacelles, etc. ad nauseum, and I'll pull out fifteen quotes saying they do, and you won't believe me, and I won't believe you, and we'll both put our hands over our ears and go "LALALALALALALA" hoping the other will go away. But, for the sake of fun, I'll play along this far. From "Elaan of Troyius" --

Scotty:
Captain, the matter-anti-matter --

Kirk:
Belay that order. What, Scotty?

Scotty:
The anti-matter pods are rigged to blow up the moment we go into warp drive.