Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x03 - "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow"

[Discovery McDiscoveryFace]

Yes. Romulan stated changes have been made to the timeline due to the temporal wars and other individuals trying to change time, but certain events happen anyway but may just be delayed. She specifically says Khan's rise to power was supposed to be in the 90s but happened later due to temporal interference. In TOS and TWOK, Khan's rise to power was in the 90s. IN SNW it appears to be in the 2040s-2050s? So not sure if you would call it an alternate timeline or say that the prime timeline has been changed, but SNW has a different past than TOS did - even major events like when wars took place.

The net displacement is minimal. WW3 still happens, except the Eugenics wars are a sooner precursor. Nuclear obliteration as the end point goes the same irrespective of what led up to it. Similarly a frozen Superman gets defrosted in the 2260s wherein what year he got frozen in is immaterial too as he was the same biological age when the icicles melted

 

[El Maestro]

The people behind SNW have given interviews where they’ve indicated they’re not concerned about canon when it comes to the Gorn and they’ve spelled out their intentions with the Gorn, which are the exact opposite of what TOS was going for story wise when they used them.

Akiva Goldsman gave an interview just a few weeks ago where he was asked about the Gorn in Strange New Worlds and the problems of lining up what they've done in Strange New Worlds with TOS's "Arena," and he gives an answer that indicates his interpretation is the exact opposite of what Gene Coon intended with "Arena."

TREKMOVIE: So the question is: why the Gorn who have some tricky canon issues instead of using the opportunity to create your own whole new villain species?​

AKIVA GOLDSMAN: Because for me, storytelling beats canon. And that may not be popular, but it’s the truth. So when they can go hand-in-hand, great. But when I was writing the pilot, I was looking for something that was just monstrous, that was Cthulhu-like. Something that was unthinking. Our shows are empathy generators and I wanted to have an element which was in relief of that. I wanted something that you couldn’t identify with, something that was utterly alien, something that was all appetite and instinct in ways that we couldn’t quite understand. And I also wanted to signal place and time in a way that personally I found interesting. So you should definitely blame me for this one.​

Goldsman totally misses the point of what the Gorn are in TOS, since “Arena” is built around Kirk being able to find empathy for a giant lizard that just murdered a bunch of colonists.

Part of the twist of “Arena” is realizing the whole mess is a misunderstanding. The Gorn aren’t “unthinking.” They are not Cthulhu, or monsters, or savages, or animals or facehuggers on LV-426. They’re people making bad choices in a misunderstanding over defending their home. Gene Coon also wrote “The Devil in the Dark,” and “Arena” shares a similar theme. Instead of not being able to identify with the Gorn, the entire episode hinges around a future where humanity is able to find empathy for something alien in order to recognize that maybe the entire situation is a big mistake.

You guys call it a blank slate, but the showrunner is telling you the entire approach to the Gorn as characters is different than what they were intended to be in TOS. And beyond that, he doesn’t have an answer for why it had to be the Gorn and couldn’t have applied this to a new alien species created for Strange New Worlds.

I mean, ok, but isn’t it possible that the Gorn can be this and also a species Kirk will learn to empathize with several years later? I know Goldmsan makes some odd creative choices and lord knows I’ve criticized them but at the end of the day the Gorn were a one-off species (that looked ridiculous) and delivered a pretty ham fisted moral in a mediocre episode that’s only remembered for the terrible creature costume/effects and Kirk’s ridiculous fighting style that is now a meme. Fleshing them out and making them this was not a bad choice. Plus, we do not know where all of this is going, so it is too early to judge at best.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I mean, ok, but isn’t it possible that the Gorn can be this and also a species Kirk will learn to empathize several years later? I know Goldmsan makes some odd creative choice and lord knows I’ve criticized them but at the end of the day the Gorn were a one-off species (that looked ridiculous) and delivered a pretty ham fisted moral in a mediocre episode that’s only remembered for the terrible creature costume/effects and Kirk’s ridiculous fighting style that is now a meme. Fleshing them out and making them this was not a bad choice. Plus, we do not know where all of this is going, so it is too early to judge at best.

Star Trek Into Darkness.

MCCOY: Sweetheart, I once performed an emergency C-section on a pregnant Gorn. Octuplets. And let me tell you, those little bastards bite. I think I can work some magic on your missile.

Wrong Universe, but still a conflict.

 

[StarMan]

Late to the party again, but anyway.

I really couldn't get into the first half (or so) of this episode (it took me more than a day to get through it; it just didn't engage me at all). Time travel has been done to death in Trek, after all, and the ep seemed a bit dull and pedestrian. It was on course to be a real letdown after the first two eps. I found myself wondering how they found somewhere to stay so easily and where they found pyjamas. There was the cliched person from the future trying to drive a car... Basically the episode wasn't doing a thing for me. Then they got to the facility where child Khan was held and it became quite a bit better.

Overall, not one of the show's better outings. I'm not really convinced by Paul Wesley as Kirk, but Christina Chong was particularly good.

I feel it might've played out better if they'd stranded them for several months instead. Say, not long after they find themselves in Toronto, hit fast forward and jump a few months down the track to find them still on the case, but much more familiar - then ramp up the heat.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Realistically, the Augmented genes should be pretty well diluted by now if her only Augmented ancestor was Khan.

I imagine they are since the Romulan kicked her ass. Mind you, one of the few good bits of INTO DARKNESS is that Spock is stronger, faster, and smarter than Khan.

His entire worldview getting upended by a being that prefers to serve rather than rule.

 

[bookworm8571]

I imagine they are since the Romulan kicked her ass. Mind you, one of the few good bits of INTO DARKNESS is that Spock is stronger, faster, and smarter than Khan.

His entire worldview getting upended by a being that prefers to serve rather than rule.

Regression to the mean would apply. With every generation, it’s another roll of the dice which genes are passed down and which are lost. Maybe she’s still slightly stronger and smarter and has higher endurance and pain tolerance than the average human, which she developed through hard work and physical training, but she’s not Supergirl.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Regression to the mean would apply. With every generation, it’s another roll of the dice which genes are passed down and which are lost. Maybe she’s still slightly stronger and smarter and has higher endurance and pain tolerance than the average human, which she developed through hard work and physical training, but she’s not Supergirl.

There's also the fact she might be Augmented and hiding it (closeted?) as well. Because the previous episode had Neera confront her about it and she didn't deny it.

 

[ED-209]

The only issue I had with this episode was when Kirk didn't know the name Noonien-Singh - Naan didn't immediately jump to the conclusion that the change in the timeline has something to do with Khan.

 

[UssGlenn]

Okay, I'm sorry for her and everything she went through because of her last name, but couldn't she just, well, change it? If someone had their surname "Hitler" I certainly wouldn't blame them if they changed it to Smith, Jones, or whatever.

"Why should I change? He's the one who sucks", Michael Bolton

 

[valkyrie013]

The only issue I had with this episode was when Kirk didn't know the name Noonien-Singh - Naan didn't immediately jump to the conclusion that the change in the timeline has something to do with Khan.

Well if the cold fusion blew up, Kirk said that was the first strike, so in his universe, Khan never got the chance to rise. and given the fact the bomb was directly over Khan.. he probably dead..

Okay, some time to parse..
It doesn't bother me that there being a bit Timey Wimey about the timeline, basically giving themselves an out with the comments of constant temporal meddling, but the timeline wanting to right itself. Honestly, would be a good episode of Discovery to explore the time war abit.
do wish they melded a bit more with Enterprise in the Temporal stuff, explain it abit better.. owell

Now, from what the Romulan agent said, she was there for 30 years, from 92, so that makes this episode generally "Today" 22-23. Khan is what? 10? and Soong in 2024 was reviewing material at the end of the season, so at a guess, he was involved in there creation, but he wanted to push the envelope with a complete artificial human, instead of tweaking an already existent gnome.
So lets say Khan was 45 when he took off in the DY-100,( Ricardo Maltobans age in space seed) that means there is another 30 years till he leaves, so in say 20 years is the Eugenics Wars? 2045??

 

[Tallguy]

I know that Khan Noonien Singh and Noonian Soong have the same historical root (some guy that Roddenberry knew in the war, right?).

But was it significant some how or just meant to be funny (for us, anyway) that Kirk mish mashes Singh into Soong?

 

[Q2UnME]

Watched the episode again last night. The character work played much better on the second viewing, the emotional beats landed a bit firmer with more impact. All in all, enjoyable outing, but not the strongest of the series. (Still negative points for the Dodge commercial in the middle)
First viewing: 7/10
Second Viewing: 8.0/10

Q2

 

[Guy Gardener]

I know that Khan Noonien Singh and Noonian Soong have the same historical root (some guy that Roddenberry knew in the war, right?).

But was it significant some how or just meant to be funny (for us, anyway) that Kirk mish mashes Singh into Soong?

Anyone who laughed at that joke is a moron.

Noonian was always seen as, written as, Kahn's middle name?

La'an has Noonian hyphenated with Singh.

WTF?

Has Khan's name changed in the Discovery timeline from Kahn Noonian Singh, to Kahn Noonian-Singh?

Or has she been extra branded as a descendant of a modi?

PS

Assistant Chief Engineer Singh, TNG S01.

 

[josiephine]

Anyone who laughed at that joke is a moron.

As someone who switched the names around a lot when I first got into Trek, I absolutely laughed. Shit was funny. Lighten up.

 

[Ovation]

No time travel story survives scrutiny. It’s best for anyone’s blood pressure to take each one at face value regarding its “rules and effects” because…wait for it…time travel is…not…real.

(Nor is Trek—runs…hides)

 

[cooleddie74]

[*Quietly hides copy of Gray's Sports Almanac*]

 

[eschaton]

I think the idea that Trek can only be a hopeful, optimistic take on our future if it could literally be our future is hopelessly immature.

I've read plenty of inspiring works of alternate history that help me realize how humanity could do better.

 

[El Maestro]

Anyone who laughed at that joke is a moron.

That was clearly a wink at the audience and it totally landed, and who are you to make the determination that anyone who got the joke and laughed at it is a moron? You're just a guy, Guy, so stop with the gatekeeper bullshit.

 

[DEWLine]

God I am so tired of people's inability to critique writing they don't like -- or even bad writing -- without personally insulting the writers.

Agreed! I disagree with the premise that the Eugenics Wars needed "fixing", and the writers don't deserve personal insults over it.

 

[Tallguy]

[*Quietly hides copy of Gray's Sports Almanac*]

Are you seriously telling me that your plan to save the universe is based on Back to the Future?