Some points about Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country

[pfontaine2]

First of all as a person who is well versed ins 20th century history (history is my major) some of the confusing quotes you mentioned are real life things said by real people that the movie. Chang saying that Shakespeare is better in the original Klingon is a reference to Adolf Hitler who loved Shakespeare and claimed that Shakespeare was originally German. Spock's line about Nixon going to china was a joke about president Richard Nixon who despite being one of the most staunch opponents of communism actually traveled to china and the Soviet Union and made great strides in communication and helped mend tensions witch eventually helped lead to the end of the cold war. So Spock is making a joke that maybe Kirk can do the same with the Klingons.

I'm also aware of where these quotes came from, which is one of the reasons their inclusion took me out of the movie. They struck me as unnecessary jokes or comments where Meyer is giving everyone a "wink" to remind everyone how literate and clever he is. Oh well...

I do appreciate your other comments but still can't quite get past the mind-meld scene. Nimoy invented the Vulcan Neck Pinch because he didn't think Spock would hit someone with the butt of his phaser to disable them. This pacifistic attitude made Spock a different sort of character to many fans. Kirk punched, kicked, did whatever he could to subdue his opponent. Spock disabled them with a "pinch". This is why I just don't like Spock forcibly pulling Valeria towards him and taking her thoughts from her, something that seems to cause her quite a bit of discomfort.

Trust me, I understand it's for the good of the universe and that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I just find it so completely out of character and wished there was some other creative way to accomplish this. We agree to disagree but I truly do appreciate your comments.

 

[JLBTucker]

I'm also aware of where these quotes came from, which is one of the reasons their inclusion took me out of the movie. They struck me as unnecessary jokes or comments where Meyer is giving everyone a "wink" to remind everyone how literate and clever he is. Oh well...

I do appreciate your other comments but still can't quite get past the mind-meld scene. Nimoy invented the Vulcan Neck Pinch because he didn't think Spock would hit someone with the butt of his phaser to disable them. This pacifistic attitude made Spock a different sort of character to many fans. Kirk punched, kicked, did whatever he could to subdue his opponent. Spock disabled them with a "pinch". This is why I just don't like Spock forcibly pulling Valeria towards him and taking her thoughts from her, something that seems to cause her quite a bit of discomfort.

Trust me, I understand it's for the good of the universe and that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I just find it so completely out of character and wished there was some other creative way to accomplish this. We agree to disagree but I truly do appreciate your comments.

I understand your point and we just have different points of view on Trek and I just love all that nerdy history quote stuff and there were a lot more of those in-jokes than just those two and hey I'm just a very big history and politics nerd.

 

[Mister Spock]

I never had a problem with Spock's chalice. Vulcans have always had a propensity toward elaborate ornamentation. Look at some of their robes, ceremonial headgear, etc. They clearly have an appreciation for the arts, whether other species would think that is "logical" or not.

Likewise. Vulcan clothing, furniture and equipment is usually towards the utilitarian end of the spectrum - comfortable desert robes whilst on Vulcan and smart, practical clothing whilst abroad - but I've no doubt they do have appreciation for form and colour. They'd probably consider such things "aesthetically pleasing".

They also do have a strong sense of tradition in their philosophy. Its possible that the more onate designs of clothing and jewellery date back to their more passionate ancestors.

 

[Mister Spock]

a deliberate contrast to Chang being quite the fan of classic human literature. Chang might be trained to fight humans, a soldier first and a person second, but the person beneath the training doesn't dislike humans, and is not ignorant of humans in the way the humans are repeatedly shown to be ignorant of Klingons.

I think its an interesting parallel to Captain Picard teaching Data about Shakespeare in The Defector. Like Data, I think General Chang studied Shakespeare to better understand the Human condition. But in Chang's case, he likely figured that by understanding what drives Humans - their hopes, fears, frailties etc. - it would give him an edge in besting them in combat.

 

[Vger23]

Here's a question that just occurred to me: What happens to Chang's plan if the Enterprise doesn't surrender after Kronos One is attacked? With the Klingon ship taking two unshielded torpedo hits, the Enterprise would have had a clear advantage in a battle, I think. If Kronos One was destroyed in a heavy weight fight, Chang wouldn't even be around to enjoy the war he just started.

I always get confused on this one....was his plan always that Kirk would likely surrender? Or did he assume that a battle would ensue and that would be enough to start a war? And if it was for Kirk to surrender, what consequence is it that Kirk and McCoy are put on trial and sentenced to Rura Penthe? Seems like that's in the noise and completely doesn't matter after the Chancellor is assassinated seemingly by Federation agents. And, if it doesn't matter, then why do the Klingon conspirators want to assassinate Kirk and Bones while they are imprisoned?

IDK, man....maybe I'm just tired.

 

[Lance]

I think its an interesting parallel to Captain Picard teaching Data about Shakespeare in The Defector. Like Data, I think General Chang studied Shakespeare to better understand the Human condition. But in Chang's case, he likely figured that by understanding what drives Humans - their hopes, fears, frailties etc. - it would give him an edge in besting them in combat.

Some British military tactitians in World War II apparently did the same, absorbing themselves into German culture and such in their off-duty hours on the assumption that understanding your enemy is the key to beating your enemy. That said, Chang does seem to have discovered actual personal enjoyment in The Bard.

 

[Mister Spock]

Some British military tactitians in World War II apparently did the same, absorbing themselves into German culture and such in their off-duty hours on the assumption that understanding your enemy is the key to beating your enemy. That said, Chang does seem to have discovered actual personal enjoyment in The Bard.

Oh, absolutely. I imagine Chang was drawn to the likes of Henry V and Iago especially. I love that he enjoys Shakespeare on a personal level.

 

[FormerLurker]

Here's a question that just occurred to me: What happens to Chang's plan if the Enterprise doesn't surrender after Kronos One is attacked? With the Klingon ship taking two unshielded torpedo hits, the Enterprise would have had a clear advantage in a battle, I think. If Kronos One was destroyed in a heavy weight fight, Chang wouldn't even be around to enjoy the war he just started.

I always get confused on this one....was his plan always that Kirk would likely surrender? Or did he assume that a battle would ensue and that would be enough to start a war? And if it was for Kirk to surrender, what consequence is it that Kirk and McCoy are put on trial and sentenced to Rura Penthe? Seems like that's in the noise and completely doesn't matter after the Chancellor is assassinated seemingly by Federation agents. And, if it doesn't matter, then why do the Klingon conspirators want to assassinate Kirk and Bones while they are imprisoned?

IDK, man....maybe I'm just tired.

It seemed clear to me at the time that the intent was for the Enterprise to destroy Kronos One, purportedly killing Chancellor Gorkon, and starting the war. Chang considered himself a reasonable sacrifice to that effort. When Kirk surrendered, and gave himself over as a hostage/to be tried for the attack as it went down, Chang had to alter his tactics and plans. First to have Kirk assassinated on Rura Penthe, attempting to get other Starfleet personnel to want revenge, and then to attempt the assassination of the Federation President (and Azetbur) to get the same response. Chang wasn't bad at thinking on his feet, Kirk just turned out to be a better tactician, and outwitted him (with a little help from his friends/crew).

 

[Timo]

Oh, Chang might let Kirk destroy the Chancellors ship all right, as he himself would be safe and sound in the cloaked BoP that would then finish off Kirk... But more probably he'd intervene right before Kirk managed to destroy Kronos One. After all, the essential thing would be to have evidence of Kirk's vile betrayal somehow reach Qo'noS and Earth, and it would be more plausible for Kronos One to carry that evidence than for a mysterious BoP to do so! And in no case could Chang count on a victorious Kirk volunteering to present that evidence.

Kirk's surrender probably took Chang completely by surprise, forcing him to hurry up and covertly beam back to the Chancellor's ship (where he had so conveniently gone missing during the assassination) right in time to receive Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

I don't think Chang left Kronos One until after Azetbur gave her impassioned "He shall pay for my father's death!" when she told the Federation President that Kirk and McCoy would stand trial. Where he was when he hailed Enterprise and threatened to "Blast you out of the Stars!" was nowhere near the transporter, where he would have needed to be to go back and forth. Remember, the Klingon transporter only worked with the transportees directly on the pads. No gravity, no gravity boots, no go anywhere.

 

[Timo]

He would be on the BoP bridge. In ST3:TSfS, this is not far away from the BoP transporter room. And when he meets Kirk, he is in the transporter room of the battle cruiser... I see zero logistical problems with this. If truly in hurry, he could have beamed directly from the BoP bridge to the battle cruiser transporter room - using the latter transporter!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Thomas Elliot]

ST:TUC bothers me on any number of levels. I'm all for the idea that we need to get past our prejudices in order to make progress but I dislike the way the point was made. Roddenberry was idealistic enough that he gave our heroes the ability to see past their personal prejudices and keep our eyes on a brighter future. By ST VI, our idealistic crew have become a bunch of grumpy old geezers who seem reluctant at best to be assigned this mission to escort the Klingons to a place that is willing to provide them assistance.

I thought the racism allegory was way too on the nose.
You have Starfleet exhibiting very racist traits from contemporary Earth. "The Klingons would become the space trash of the universe." Really? I think it would have made more sense for them to argue that Klingons living within the federation could be a security risk. That's more subtle in my opinion.
Then you have the Enterprise crew talking about how they eat and smell. Is this their first time being around aliens? I get their old enemies, but it seems like they could have conveyed it better.

Then there are the little things that irk me. Spock stating that "only Nixon could go to China" is an old Vulcan-proverb.

It seems a bit odd but also kind of makes sense, and was funny. Americans use proverbs from different countries. Why wouldn't Vulcan use proverbs from different planets?

Or General Chang quoting Shakespeare which is of course better when you have read it in the original Klingon. Huh?!

I loved the idea that Klingons were fans of Shakespeare and said something like, "You should hear it in the original Klingon." But then when Chang starts quoting it, it becomes too campy.

Perhaps worse of all, we've got the Scooby-Doo moment when the mask is pulled off the Klingon assassin's face to reveal it was Colonel West all along. The original cut of the film is better without these silly scenes.

Haha. Yeah, that was pathetic. Couldn't they at least alter people's features in the future?

I like the film, one of my favorites but it has some flaws.

 

[Smellmet]

It is still a fairly slick, fairly entertaining movie, but it's got issues. No question. Upper middle of the pack for me these days.

 

[JLBTucker]

well its personally my favorite neck and neck with Kahn

 

[EnriqueH]

Why did they change it from Saavik? I though I read back in the day that it was due to Roddenberry’s objection, but it’s my understanding that Meyer, Nimoy and Bennett ALL ignored Roddenberry’s suggestions anyway.

Anyway, I like VI overall but the “twist” was way predictable. The Romulan ambassador, Valeris and Chang. D’ooooooh!!!!!

 

[JLBTucker]

Why did they change it from Saavik? I though I read back in the day that it was due to Roddenberry’s objection, but it’s my understanding that Meyer, Nimoy and Bennett ALL ignored Roddenberry’s suggestions anyway.

Anyway, I like VI overall but the “twist” was way predictable. The Romulan ambassador, Valeris and Chang. D’ooooooh!!!!!

Savik would had made since because she was originally planned to be part Romulan

 

[EnriqueH]

Problems I had:

The music needed Goldsmith or Horner. I liked the Klingon theme and the music was very good in parts, but I always felt Goldsmith or Horner should’ve been there.

I have trouble suspending my belief that poor old McCoy would’ve had the strength to grab someone by the shirt or that Scotty could’ve knocked down that door.

The conspirators were obvious from the get go.

I didn’t like the submarine feel of the Enterprise. I prefer the interiors of TMP-V.

 

[Damian]

Why did they change it from Saavik? I though I read back in the day that it was due to Roddenberry’s objection, but it’s my understanding that Meyer, Nimoy and Bennett ALL ignored Roddenberry’s suggestions anyway.

Anyway, I like VI overall but the “twist” was way predictable. The Romulan ambassador, Valeris and Chang. D’ooooooh!!!!!

I think it had to do more with that it would have been the 3rd actress to play Saavik. I think Meyer wanted Kirstie Alley back but for whatever reason, I don't recall, that didn't pan out. I don't believe Robin Curtis was ever in the mix. I think they figured having yet a 3rd actress as the same character just would have been too much so they made it into another character.

I know Meyer was a bit nonplussed because it was his character from TWOK basically, not Roddenberry's. I guess Meyer can take heart, at least Roddenberry liked some things Meyer did. He liked Saavik enough that he didn't feel she should be the one to betray the Federation.

I might be in the minority but I was kind of glad for it. I just have a hard time buying Saavik would betray Spock and Kirk like that. It just doesn't feel right to me.

 

[EnriqueH]

I was relieved Saavik didn’t do it, but in hindsight, it would’ve packed more of a punch. Especially after Saavik had gone through what she did in II and IIII.

 

[Damian]

The music needed Goldsmith or Horner. I liked the Klingon theme and the music was very good in parts, but I always felt Goldsmith or Horner should’ve been there.

Apparently Meyer wanted Horner back, but he wasn't interested. And Meyer did turn to Goldsmith but after TFF was considered a bust I guess he was reluctant to come back.

Eidelman did fine I thought--his score fit the mood of the film mostly. I noticed they did reuse the heartbeat musical cue from TFF during the mild meld sequence (though it was updated a bit). Sort of like how Horner reused the V'Ger cue during the Mutara Nebula sequence.

I didn’t like the submarine feel of the Enterprise. I prefer the interiors of TMP-V.

That's a big thing for Meyer. He tried doing some of that in TWOK in places as well. I didn't care for the corridors too much, a bit too narrow. The crew corridors were ok and the bridge is basically the same--just a few updates and a new paintjob, but since it's about 6 to 7 years post TFF it probably makes sense it would have an update.

The thing I missed the most though was the forward observation room from TFF. I really liked that set. And it even evoked a bit of the nautical theme Meyer likes. It's too bad they could find a re-use for that set.