Scotty as second officer

[Pauln6]

Ugh, this reminds me of that glimpse of a full commander in the briefing room in (I believe) "The Enterprise Incident." Excepting people who weren't officers of the line like McCoy, there shouldn't have been anyone who outranked Scotty besides Spock.

There's not a huge amount of logic, no pun intended. Ann Mulhall, an astrobiologist of equal rank to McCoy, should obviously have played a key role in the Immunity Syndrome and if not her then her replacement. And wouldn't have loved to see Helen Noel and Marta go one on one in Whom Gods Destroy? Continuity just wasn't a major priority.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Maybe Finney had to take a temporary grade reduction to LTCMDR to serve on the Enterprise under Kirk, and he was wearing his own old shirts.

Finney is a guy whose career had totally stalled. Kirk taking him on is a favor to an old friend and maybe an attempt to assuage some guilty feelings. Kirk probably pulled some strings to get Finney the LTCMDR braid.

 

[Phaser Two]

There's not a huge amount of logic, no pun intended. Ann Mulhall, an astrobiologist of equal rank to McCoy, should obviously have played a key role in the Immunity Syndrome and if not her then her replacement. And wouldn't have loved to see Helen Noel and Marta go one on one in Whom Gods Destroy? Continuity just wasn't a major priority.

True, but I'm talking about their obnoxious decision to stick a non-speaking extra in a shirt whose rank braid made no sense. That was just silly. On the other hand, what you're suggesting would have required them to bring back Diana Muldaur and Mariana Hill as semi-regulars, which probably wasn't in the budget, although Muldaur's appearance as a completely different character (not to mention her status as a regular in S2 of TNG) suggests that she enjoyed Star Trek. Also, without checking I think The Immunity Syndrome was before Return to Tomorrow in production order, no? So you wanted her to appear before she, uh, appeared.

 

[Timo]

On the other hand, we know Kirk does underutilize his specialists in-universe: his A&A gal had nothing to do but paint pretty pictures, say. It's quite possible that these specialists are generally only embarked for short periods of time.

As for the Lieutenant Commander in gold, the spy mission in "The Enterprise Incident" would indeed be his logical spot to appear, be he Tactical or Intelligence or whatever - and the presence of a Commander-ranked redshirt would be even more natural, as the briefing would be the one place where the Chief of Security ought to be present, even if unlike the gold fella, he is aboard 24/7, for 1000 stardates per year.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

True, but I'm talking about their obnoxious decision to stick a non-speaking extra in a shirt whose rank braid made no sense. That was just silly. On the other hand, what you're suggesting would have required them to bring back Diana Muldaur and Mariana Hill as semi-regulars, which probably wasn't in the budget, although Muldaur's appearance as a completely different character (not to mention her status as a regular in S2 of TNG) suggests that she enjoyed Star Trek. Also, without checking I think The Immunity Syndrome was before Return to Tomorrow in production order, no? So you wanted her to appear before she, uh, appeared.

Ha ha! Plus, usually if they had a female crewman guest star it was because someone wanted to bone her as part of the plot. Immunity Syndrome had no romance so no need for any girls!

It is also weird that the security chief never attends senior briefings too.

 

[Timo]

The cause and the effect are there, though, sort of. Given the horrendous casualty rate, we easily understand why there's a new guy there in red double braid in every episode featuring one. And why Kirk has trouble remembering the face or the most recent promotion, as with Giotto in "Devil in the Dark".

Would Kirk feel comfortable sitting face to face with the Commander of the Week, knowing his command decisions are the reason the Commander of Last Week isn't there?

Interestingly, Security in episodes like "Turnabout Intruder" seems to play the classic Royal Marine role in taking a deliberate and pronounced standoff stance to any unrest at the upper echelons, stalling instead of intervening, preventing instead of facilitating, undermining even the direct orders of the apparent CO in favor of status quo and the Field Manual way. The double braid redshirt might be the ultimate arbiter, the one man or woman never invited in to make decisions because he or she must remain neutral on the ultimate one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Toby Meyer]

Uhura would have made a great captain!

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

On the other hand, we know Kirk does underutilize his specialists in-universe: his A&A gal had nothing to do but paint pretty pictures, say. It's quite possible that these specialists are generally only embarked for short periods of time.

As for the Lieutenant Commander in gold, the spy mission in "The Enterprise Incident" would indeed be his logical spot to appear, be he Tactical or Intelligence or whatever - and the presence of a Commander-ranked redshirt would be even more natural, as the briefing would be the one place where the Chief of Security ought to be present, even if unlike the gold fella, he is aboard 24/7, for 1000 stardates per year.

Timo Saloniemi

I was of the opinion, after noticing those guys in HD, that they are potentially something like Starfleet marines, there for that particular mission. I mean, they are talking about the spying plot right in the open and these guys we've never seen are there! They are probably special forces that Star Fleet Command sent in case the Enterprise was boarded, and there are probably more onboard at that time. Same goes for Giotto, since that mission called for a large number of security men.

 

[J.T.B.]

Wow, I always thought it would be.

It is possible but it would be rare for an officer to be assigned as second-in-command of a unit with more senior officers attached.

True, but I'm talking about their obnoxious decision to stick a non-speaking extra in a shirt whose rank braid made no sense. That was just silly.

The LCdr at navigation while Lt Leslie sits in the big chair in "The Alternative Factor" pretty much says it all: Nobody was paying too close attention.

It is also weird that the security chief never attends senior briefings too.

All the senior briefings are pretty light on senior officers! If you look at a 1960s US Navy cruiser, which we might assume would be useful as a TOS model, you will generally find:

• 1 Capt CO
• 1 Cdr XO
• 1 Cdr Ops department head
• 5 LCdr department heads:
  • Engineering
  • Gunnery/Weapons
  • Navigation
  • Medical
  • Supply
• 2 to 5 LCdrs as assistant department heads, chaplain and/or dentist.
• 12-15 lieutenants in various departments.
• A Marine captain (under the Weapons Officer).

And of course a passel of JGs, ensigns and warrants. And a Marine lieutenant.

There may be a few over- or under-fills in the departments, for instance the Navigator might be a lieutenant because it was a small department. In WW2 and the '50s there will probably be several extra Cdrs and LCdrs because the expanded WW2 navy opened more slots for promotion.

A major difference is that these cruisers would have a complement of 1100-1200, or as many as 1600 for the big Des Moines class. Would Enterprise need that many senior officers for 430 crew? OTOH, Enterprise is lousy with full lieutenants, which might argue for more LCdrs and Cdrs.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The LCdr at navigation while Lt Leslie sits in the big chair in "The Alternative Factor" pretty much says it all: Nobody was paying too close attention.

I assume they sent the guy to wardrobe and they gave him what ever shirt that fit him.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

I assume they sent the guy to wardrobe and they gave him what ever shirt that fit him.

We want to make this as consistent as possible. Some things should just remain errors, however uncommon they might be.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I assume they sent the guy to wardrobe and they gave him what ever shirt that fit him.

The braids had to be taken off for cleaning, though, and sewn on, as I understand it, so it's kinda odd that a gold an avocado shirt would have lieutenant commander braids off the rack. Maybe it was an extra Kirk shirt that they quickly demoted down from captain?

 

[Pauln6]

It is possible but it would be rare for an officer to be assigned as second-in-command of a unit with more senior officers attached.



The LCdr at navigation while Lt Leslie sits in the big chair in "The Alternative Factor" pretty much says it all: Nobody was paying too close attention.



All the senior briefings are pretty light on senior officers! If you look at a 1960s US Navy cruiser, which we might assume would be useful as a TOS model, you will generally find:

• 1 Capt CO
• 1 Cdr XO
• 1 Cdr Ops department head
• 5 LCdr department heads:
  • Engineering
  • Gunnery/Weapons
  • Navigation
  • Medical
  • Supply
• 2 to 5 LCdrs as assistant department heads, chaplain and/or dentist.
• 12-15 lieutenants in various departments.
• A Marine captain (under the Weapons Officer).

And of course a passel of JGs, ensigns and warrants. And a Marine lieutenant.

There may be a few over- or under-fills in the departments, for instance the Navigator might be a lieutenant because it was a small department. In WW2 and the '50s there will probably be several extra Cdrs and LCdrs because the expanded WW2 navy opened more slots for promotion.

A major difference is that these cruisers would have a complement of 1100-1200, or as many as 1600 for the big Des Moines class. Would Enterprise need that many senior officers for 430 crew? OTOH, Enterprise is lousy with full lieutenants, which might argue for more LCdrs and Cdrs.

I like this breakdown, although in terms of Trek science and communications are important enough to be included in the mix.

It is interesting that we see no chief operations officer. If Scotty fills that role too - and he does sometimes man the Operations station, you do have to wonder what the other 100+ lieutenants on the ship actually do.

The other thing which I find to be curious is that McCoy doubles as head of life sciences when medical should be it's own division. I don't see that McCoy has any insight into botany, zoology, ecology, or astrobiology and neither does Spock. Remember McCoy was 'non-essential personnel' for a planetary survey. Come to think if it, almost every landing party in season 3 consisted almost entirely of non-essential personnel ...

I suppose the department heads you need might depend on the nature of the crisis. You might not want your head of life sciences at a briefing about Klingons but you would want them at every meeting about space amoebae or planetary surveys.

 

[BK613]

True, but I'm talking about their obnoxious decision to stick a non-speaking extra in a shirt whose rank braid made no sense.

The LCdr at navigation while Lt Leslie sits in the big chair in "The Alternative Factor" pretty much says it all: Nobody was paying too close attention.

I assume they sent the guy to wardrobe and they gave him what ever shirt that fit him.

We want to make this as consistent as possible. Some things should just remain errors, however uncommon they might be.

So, in-universe, the guy made LtCdr while the Enterprise was away from port and will move on to his next assignment at the earliest convenience of the Service. (Which certainly mirrors what happens in RL armed forces.)

 

[J.T.B.]

I like this breakdown, although in terms of Trek science and communications are important enough to be included in the mix.

There would still be a communications officer, but that would be an assistant to the operations officer. If you want to break it down further into divisions (note this is generalizing, it was not set in stone and different ships had their own organizational variations):

• Executive Officer
  • X division: Administration, ship's office, personnel, chaplain/welfare, ship's police
• Operations
  • OE: Electronics maintenance and repair
  • OI: Combat Information Center, radars
  • OR: Radio and electronic external communications
  • OS: Visual signals, lookouts
• Gunnery/Weapons
  • 1st: (numbered divisions divide up the main and secondary guns, anti-aircraft armament, missiles and also the "on deck" maintenance and work in sections of the ship, boats, anchors, mooring etc.)
  • 2nd
  • 3rd
  • 4th
  • 5th
  • 6th
  • 7th
  • F (usually called Fox): Fire control equipment and systems
  • V: Helicopters
  • Marine detachment: Internal security, landing force, honor guard, brig and also a section of ship's armament like the 1st-7th divisions
• Navigation
  • N: Navigation, meteorology
• Engineering
  • A: HVAC, auxiliary equipment, small motors
  • B: Boilers and firerooms
  • E: Electrical systems and interior communications
  • M: Main propulsion plant, engine rooms
  • R: Hull and structural maintenance, plumbing, damage control
• Medical
  • H: Sickbay
  • D: Dental office (sometimes combined with H division)
• Supply
  • S-1: Stores and supplies
  • S-2: Food and provisions, crew's mess
  • S-3: Finance, disbursing
  • S-4: Services, laundry, barber shop, ship's store
  • S-5: Officer's mess (sometimes combined with S-2 division)

The science departments, yeah, there's nothing comparable. The way I envision it, they were once civilians aboard for the research mission, but were eventually folded into Starfleet.

It is interesting that we see no chief operations officer. If Scotty fills that role too - and he does sometimes man the Operations station, you do have to wonder what the other 100+ lieutenants on the ship actually do.

"Operations" in TNG came to be something different than in the naval sense, it seemed like it was concerned with the ship's internal functions. Whereas the navy Ops Boss is concerned with the situation outside the ship, the tactical environment and how to evaluate it. Because the XO is primarily concerned with running the ship, the Ops Boss became sort of a superior department head, he and the XO being the captain's principal advisors for what's going on "external" and "internal" respectively.

The other thing which I find to be curious is that McCoy doubles as head of life sciences when medical should be it's own division. I don't see that McCoy has any insight into botany, zoology, ecology, or astrobiology and neither does Spock. Remember McCoy was 'non-essential personnel' for a planetary survey.

Life sciences is mentioned a few times, but he is also called "chief medical officer," "medical officer" and "ship's surgeon." Maybe life sciences is more of an administrative second hat and doesn't take much of his time?

 

[Pauln6]

There would still be a communications officer, but that would be an assistant to the operations officer. If you want to break it down further into divisions (note this is generalizing, it was not set in stone and different ships had their own organizational variations):

• Executive Officer
  • X division: Administration, ship's office, personnel, chaplain/welfare, ship's police
• Operations
  • OE: Electronics maintenance and repair
  • OI: Combat Information Center, radars
  • OR: Radio and electronic external communications
  • OS: Visual signals, lookouts
• Gunnery/Weapons
  • 1st: (numbered divisions divide up the main and secondary guns, anti-aircraft armament, missiles and also the "on deck" maintenance and work in sections of the ship, boats, anchors, mooring etc.)
  • 2nd
  • 3rd
  • 4th
  • 5th
  • 6th
  • 7th
  • F (usually called Fox): Fire control equipment and systems
  • V: Helicopters
  • Marine detachment: Internal security, landing force, honor guard, brig and also a section of ship's armament like the 1st-7th divisions
• Navigation
  • N: Navigation, meteorology
• Engineering
  • A: HVAC, auxiliary equipment, small motors
  • B: Boilers and firerooms
  • E: Electrical systems and interior communications
  • M: Main propulsion plant, engine rooms
  • R: Hull and structural maintenance, plumbing, damage control
• Medical
  • H: Sickbay
  • D: Dental office (sometimes combined with H division)
• Supply
  • S-1: Stores and supplies
  • S-2: Food and provisions, crew's mess
  • S-3: Finance, disbursing
  • S-4: Services, laundry, barber shop, ship's store
  • S-5: Officer's mess (sometimes combined with S-2 division)

The science departments, yeah, there's nothing comparable. The way I envision it, they were once civilians aboard for the research mission, but were eventually folded into Starfleet.



"Operations" in TNG came to be something different than in the naval sense, it seemed like it was concerned with the ship's internal functions. Whereas the navy Ops Boss is concerned with the situation outside the ship, the tactical environment and how to evaluate it. Because the XO is primarily concerned with running the ship, the Ops Boss became sort of a superior department head, he and the XO being the captain's principal advisors for what's going on "external" and "internal" respectively.



Life sciences is mentioned a few times, but he is also called "chief medical officer," "medical officer" and "ship's surgeon." Maybe life sciences is more of an administrative second hat and doesn't take much of his time?

Nice. I get the impression that starships have more engineers than anything else. Supply would be essential and, in TOS at least, there are definitely kitchens that operate food synthesisers.

Shuttles seem to come under command in TOS, while meteorology is probably split between meteorology for planetary visits and astrophysics for general space travel.

They mention chemistry, geology, biology, and pathology labs and we see an arboretum that might be an adjunct to the biology lab. Presumably they also have a physics and high energy physics labs as well.

We know they have a full time A&A officer, a Chief geologist as well at least one assistant who is an ensign, an astrobiologist, several biologists, a historian (possibly part time), a sociologist, and a physics department. I would have thought that the science officer has overall supervision but at the very least, there would be a chief biologist, physicist, and apparently geologist who supervise their departments. It's unclear who would supervise the social sciences but these might be under Life Sciences.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

The science departments, yeah, there's nothing comparable. The way I envision it, they were once civilians aboard for the research mission, but were eventually folded into Starfleet.

Honestly if you look at the pilots, this might be exactly why blueshirts exist. The khaki-gold is the basic uniform, while blue might have once been for civilian science personnel. Green then was only for a few command personnel. This same pattern is seen in Voyager where there are very few blueshirts, and those are life sciences personnel almost exclusively.

On the other hand, if Voyager is a science ship, then maybe almost everyone has a science endorsement, and wars the color of their other duties.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't think civilians would have had the same uniform except for color and design inside the arrowhead (or delta [sic]). Uniforms that are that similar imply only membership in the same service.

More believable approaches for civilian uniforms, that have styles and badges that are altogether different from Starfleet uniforms (of any known era), are shown in TWOK and TVH, and possibly also TMP.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

I agree. I also agree with the poster that said the science officers' role on the ships may have evolved from a civilian role and now is represented by a blueshirt when it was once something else.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I also agree with the poster that said the science officers' role on the ships may have evolved from a civilian role and now is represented by a blueshirt when it was once something else.

That makes sense.