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Scotty as second officer
- Thread starter Lance
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Actually he specifically mentions that Kirk is still Captain, but that he is acting (recording) on his behalf, something that a First Officer (or indeed a Second Officer if the First isn't available) would do as the "Captain's Log" is the offical log for the ship or mission as a whole (ship's log in modern lingo) rather than the personal log of the captain.
Early installment weirdness can alternatively be treated as in-universe evolution. Nothing to say Spock couldn't have been mere Second Officer at the time of "Enemy Within", although it really forces us to accept Scotty as the First Officer because nobody else would have an excuse to remain absent from Kirk's side during those early adventures. (Conversely, Scotty did have an explicit excuse to be engaged elsewhere in "Enemy Within" but also in "Mudd's Women", and the 1st Officer issue never arose in "Charlie X" or "Corbomite", perhaps leaving "Man Trap" as the odd episode out. But Scotty was extremely absent in that adventure anyway, doing just that one voiceover from transporter room - so we have to invent a reason for his absence, which then automatically covers everything, such as him not speaking before Spock in the briefing room.)
Things would simply have changed in the long gap between "Enemy Within" and the following late-2000s-stardated adventures.
We cannot do the same with Data's second-in-command status, as stated by Picard. But he is excused for being a bit confused at the time - we can dismiss that as him intending to say next-in-command but the headaches getting in the way.
Timo Saloniemi
Things would simply have changed in the long gap between "Enemy Within" and the following late-2000s-stardated adventures.
We cannot do the same with Data's second-in-command status, as stated by Picard. But he is excused for being a bit confused at the time - we can dismiss that as him intending to say next-in-command but the headaches getting in the way.
Timo Saloniemi
You're right, I guess that's not a great example. At any rate, if the position of first officer became vacant and he's the one who's doing the job, I don't see why it would matter if he used the title. Calling himself second officer on the official record could cause confusion about who was performing what function.
Although I do believe that Spock was always First Officer and the second officer was a misinterpretation the idea that perhaps Gary Mitchell was 1st Officer and Spock was waiting around as Second Officer to get an official promotion has some merit. Except that you'd think they couldnt wait that long.without a 1st Officer.. I suppose if Kirk had died as well as Gary Mitchell in WNMHGB then Spock could have still referred to himself as 2nd Officer or Acting Captain not 1st Officer.
As I have written before WNMHGB is annoying vague about who holds the position of first officer and/or second in command.
Mitchell acts like he has responsibilities beyond helm officer here:
When they approach the barrier Spock gives orders to Kelso, meaning that he not only has a senior rank but is above Kelso in Kelso's chain of command:
After Mitchell is disabled Kirk takes the helm and then is replaced at the helm by Spock. Kirk orders Spock:
If Spock was the first officer and second in command he might have asked for damage control reports without a command from Kirk. Kirk could have ordered someone who wasn't the first officer to take damage reports.
It is possible that Mitchell was the first officer but was unconscious and then off duty in sickbay and Spock had to assumed many of Mitchell's duties.
So Spock is stated to be Kirk's science officer, making his relationship with Sulu the head of the Astro sciences Department uncertain. And it is left uncertain whether Spock was already also Kirk's second in command and first officer.
In "The Enemy Within" , the 4th TOS episode produced, the 5th in airdate order (6 October), the 6th in stardate order (1672.1):
In "Dagger of the Mind" the 11th TOS episode produced, the 9th in airdate order (3 November 1966), the 13th in stardate order (2715.1):
In the trial in "Courtmartial", the 15th episode produced, the 20th episode in airdate order (2 February 1967), and the 16th episode in stardate order (2947.3):
So at that time Spock has the positions of first officer and science officer and the rank of lieutenant commander.
In "The Menagerie", the 16th TOS episode produced, the 11th in airdate order (17 November 1966), the 17th in stardate order (3012.4), Spock is referred to as first officer and as lieutenant commander:
In "Tomorrow is Yesterday":
In "Space seed" When it seems the bridge crew are all dying Kirk logs:
And we may wish that Kirk had though to give Spock's precise rank at the time. In "The Immunity Syndrome":
Here Kirk describes McCoy and Scott as lieutenant commanders and Spock as commander, thus strongly indicating that Spock has been promoted to commander by then.
And I think that is most of the important information that can be used to deduce Spock's rank and positions in TOS, except that as far as I know Spock always wore the two solid stripes of a full commander while other characters said to be lieutenant commanders wore one solid stripe and on dashed stripe.
Mitchell acts like he has responsibilities beyond helm officer here:
When they approach the barrier Spock gives orders to Kelso, meaning that he not only has a senior rank but is above Kelso in Kelso's chain of command:
After Mitchell is disabled Kirk takes the helm and then is replaced at the helm by Spock. Kirk orders Spock:
If Spock was the first officer and second in command he might have asked for damage control reports without a command from Kirk. Kirk could have ordered someone who wasn't the first officer to take damage reports.
It is possible that Mitchell was the first officer but was unconscious and then off duty in sickbay and Spock had to assumed many of Mitchell's duties.
So Spock is stated to be Kirk's science officer, making his relationship with Sulu the head of the Astro sciences Department uncertain. And it is left uncertain whether Spock was already also Kirk's second in command and first officer.
In "The Enemy Within" , the 4th TOS episode produced, the 5th in airdate order (6 October), the 6th in stardate order (1672.1):
In "Dagger of the Mind" the 11th TOS episode produced, the 9th in airdate order (3 November 1966), the 13th in stardate order (2715.1):
In the trial in "Courtmartial", the 15th episode produced, the 20th episode in airdate order (2 February 1967), and the 16th episode in stardate order (2947.3):
So at that time Spock has the positions of first officer and science officer and the rank of lieutenant commander.
In "The Menagerie", the 16th TOS episode produced, the 11th in airdate order (17 November 1966), the 17th in stardate order (3012.4), Spock is referred to as first officer and as lieutenant commander:
In "Tomorrow is Yesterday":
In "Space seed" When it seems the bridge crew are all dying Kirk logs:
And we may wish that Kirk had though to give Spock's precise rank at the time. In "The Immunity Syndrome":
Here Kirk describes McCoy and Scott as lieutenant commanders and Spock as commander, thus strongly indicating that Spock has been promoted to commander by then.
And I think that is most of the important information that can be used to deduce Spock's rank and positions in TOS, except that as far as I know Spock always wore the two solid stripes of a full commander while other characters said to be lieutenant commanders wore one solid stripe and on dashed stripe.
...Especially as the heroes encounter a phenomenon that might call for special expertise and thus give exceptional powers to lowly underlings who can handle the situation with said expertise.
For example:
Or then the man sitting at the scanning console gets to fly the ship at this crucial moment, with even the captain bowing to his greater expertise and skipping the part where the scanning guy suggests and those in factual command forward his suggestions as direct orders.
Very true. And there would be precedent for the person at Helm/Nav to be the CO's right hand: that's where Number One sat for Pike. Steering may be a trivial job fit for junior officers or enlisteds - but the command tasks moved from Mitchell to Spock might be best handled from that centrally positioned console, absolutely requiring its resources for keeping the XO up to date.
Of course, there's also disconnect: Pike's two helm pulpit officers both wear gold, the color of the CO, while Kirk's duo wears brown and Spock at the scanners is the one to wear gold along with the CO. But from the very next episode on, we have to accept that the XO/First Officer can wear colors other than gold; perhaps Mitchell, too, had "gold underneath" when donning brown?
This is somewhat debatable. After all, Kirk is specifically chiding Dehner, not Spock, for failing to have come clean about unpleasant facts - Dehner might well be the science officer being addressed here.
Then again, Spock certainly does scientificky jobs on the bridge. But we might just as well argue that everything flows through the XO eventually, and that the real science officers like Sulu toil belowdecks to allow XO Spock to keep CO Kirk on top of the science situation.
When department heads are summoned to the bridge and only three people arrive, we are tempted to think that these get to represent more than their numbers would suggest (even if we attribute additional department command to some people already present). Perhaps Sulu, the go-to man for Astro Sciences, speaks for the whole Science Department and is in fact the CSO, while Lieutenant Unseen from Planetary Sciences and Lieutenant Missing from Social Sciences get their departments represented through Sulu's presence, even though Planetary and Social are not lower in the hierarchy than Astro. But of the three, two (Sulu and Piper) already represent Sciences of some color. To decide that Spock (or somebody else present) is the CSO makes us wonder why the summons would bring up so many science underlings but fail to bring up department heads from other potentially relevant fields such as Weapons or Logistics or whatnot.
Which has its up- and downsides. Both "yes" and "no" would fit the episode, and both would have their uses in interpreting the later episodes.
Except when lieutenant commanders wore only one stripe (Mitchell in "Where No Man"). So there's also persistent precedent to officers dressing "up" and "down" wrt their addressed rank, which we might take as Starfleet practice, confusing the issue more (aka making our interpretations more flexible).
Timo Saloniemi
It is not clear in the episode. But interestingly, behind the scenes information that @Harvey has
posted shows that the intent at the time of WNMHGB was that the ship's science officer was ex officio second-in-command.
Lieutenant Commanders McCoy and Scott: 1½ stripes.
Lieutenant Commanders Spock, Finney and Giotto: 2 stripes.
...Although it's possible we never see the uniform of Lieutenant Commander Finney.
After all, in order to wait it out, Finney would have to create a stash of water, crackers and clothing. He couldn't take any of that from his personal supply, or it missing would be noticed. So the clothing would need to be stolen one way or another.
Did Finney manipulate the computers into providing him with extra shirts of his own measurements (complete with the correct rank markers) and then forget about having done so? Or did he pilfer a shirt from some hapless full Commander (of whom there's a surprising supply aboard the ship eventually)? The clothing being ill fitting (especially on the stuntman) can of course be taken as an artistic choice - Finney is disheveled where Kirk is composed - or dismissed as an unfortunate limitation of costuming. But there's always the in-universe interpretation, too...
Timo Saloniemi
After all, in order to wait it out, Finney would have to create a stash of water, crackers and clothing. He couldn't take any of that from his personal supply, or it missing would be noticed. So the clothing would need to be stolen one way or another.
Did Finney manipulate the computers into providing him with extra shirts of his own measurements (complete with the correct rank markers) and then forget about having done so? Or did he pilfer a shirt from some hapless full Commander (of whom there's a surprising supply aboard the ship eventually)? The clothing being ill fitting (especially on the stuntman) can of course be taken as an artistic choice - Finney is disheveled where Kirk is composed - or dismissed as an unfortunate limitation of costuming. But there's always the in-universe interpretation, too...
Timo Saloniemi
Accidentally post without writing...
I meant to say, "Maybe Finney got a kick out stealing the Gold Commander shirts that Spock had (because he is First Officer, but doesn't wear (because he chose to wear blue for sciences)."
I meant to say, "Maybe Finney got a kick out stealing the Gold Commander shirts that Spock had (because he is First Officer, but doesn't wear (because he chose to wear blue for sciences)."
So Kelvin Starfleet is run by a bunch of idiots, unless every single senior officer died at the Battle of Vulcan
Over to you Kelvin Captain Pike....please respond
I think that's about right.
Lt. Commander (lower half), and Lt. Commander (upper half). Similar to Rear Admiral.
Ok, I stretching things here.
Yeah, it's hard to stretch. We know from what's entered into the record in "Court Martial" that Spock's and McCoy's grades are the same.
I always assumed Spock had a brevet until later on in the series.
Had to look up what a brevet was, but yes, I assumed this is what Spock had until alter in the series when he is called a full commander. Finney might have the brevet as well. I have felt that Giotto and those unnamed guys in The Enterprise Incident, etc, who are wearing CMDR's stripes might be temporaries, maybe even Starfleet Marines, and that is why they would outrank Scotty and be equal to Spock/
On the terminology: A brevet promotion was given as a reward and was mostly honorary, giving the title but without increase in authority, responsibility, pay or uniform. Brevets are usually associated with the American Civil War when they became almost routine, and their function was replaced in the 20th century by decorations. Brevets were used in the US and British armies and (to a lesser degree) marines, but never in the USN or RN.
In US usage, acting promotions are generally to fill a local vacancy or as a probationary period. Temporary promotions are usually within a temporarily created or expanded organization or unit, common in wartime "for the duration." Both came with the higher insignia and pay as well as the title. "Frocking" is a more recent thing, which allows someone who is slated for promotion to get the title, authority and insignia early, before the official date, but not the pay or retirement credit.
In US usage, acting promotions are generally to fill a local vacancy or as a probationary period. Temporary promotions are usually within a temporarily created or expanded organization or unit, common in wartime "for the duration." Both came with the higher insignia and pay as well as the title. "Frocking" is a more recent thing, which allows someone who is slated for promotion to get the title, authority and insignia early, before the official date, but not the pay or retirement credit.
Or Lt. Commander (Sol system, United Earth government)
Lt. Commander (Eridiani system, Confederacy of Vulcan)
Here is what Wikipedia says about pre-Civil War use of brevets in the US Army [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevet_(military)#Early_use]:
In the 19th-century U.S. Army, brevet promotions were quite common because the army had many frontier forts to garrison and other missions to perform but could not always appoint appropriately ranked officers to command these forts or missions. The U.S. Congress permitted only a limited number of officers of each rank. Thus, an officer of lower rank might receive a brevet commission to a rank more appropriate for his assignment. Also, newly commissioned officers often received brevet rank until authorized positions became available. For example, an officer might graduate from West Point and be appointed a brevet second lieutenant until a permanent second lieutenant posting opened up. In early 1861, some recent graduates of West Point temporarily were named brevet second lieutenants because not enough Regular Army officer vacancies were available to give them commissions as regular second lieutenants.[8] In addition to officers being appointed to a brevet rank to temporarily serve in positions designated for higher-ranked officers (i.e., in lieu of promotion to permanent rank), officers might be awarded brevet rank as recognition for gallantry or meritorious service.
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