As far as O'Brien goes, I'd say he went from either Security Green or 'Federation Forces' Blue (he was a "soldier") to Operations Gold (Engineering and Helm (NOT Nav that was part of Sciences, "Maroons") to Operations Gold ("TNG") with a brief period in red as a relief CONN in red.
Scotty as second officer
- Thread starter Lance
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Could be, but I'm not completely convinced. Could also be the planet/orbit thingie.
Phaser Room as in "Balance of Terror," and Armory as in "Day of the Dove"? I don't think they would necessarily be related.
I think the reference was to ENT, where the Armory Officer ends up commanding the facility from which (some of) the ship's weapons are physically fired.
But that was always an artifact of ENT: Archer sailed out with a haphazardly gathered crew, ahead of time, and then went AWOL so that the Vulcans couldn't confiscate his vessel and stop Earth from raising hell in the neighborhood. So he didn't bring along a Tactical Officer or a Gunnery Officer, and his Armory Officer ended up handling the fighting, also doubling as the Security Chief.
We really shouldn't sweat the organization charts of ENT much, as they aren't likely to represent the UE Starfleet norm, or reflect on the later UFP Starfleet organization norm. In contrast, Kirk's team in TOS was as "regular" or "bluecollar" as things get: not the exalted Federation Flagship with a celebrities-only command crew, not a hastily thrown-together posse, but a regular team working on a longterm assignment of very general and generic nature. Drawing conclusions on that is legit - and indeed, Star Trek as a phenomenon hinges on drawing conclusions on the show that started it all.
Timo Saloniemi
But that was always an artifact of ENT: Archer sailed out with a haphazardly gathered crew, ahead of time, and then went AWOL so that the Vulcans couldn't confiscate his vessel and stop Earth from raising hell in the neighborhood. So he didn't bring along a Tactical Officer or a Gunnery Officer, and his Armory Officer ended up handling the fighting, also doubling as the Security Chief.
We really shouldn't sweat the organization charts of ENT much, as they aren't likely to represent the UE Starfleet norm, or reflect on the later UFP Starfleet organization norm. In contrast, Kirk's team in TOS was as "regular" or "bluecollar" as things get: not the exalted Federation Flagship with a celebrities-only command crew, not a hastily thrown-together posse, but a regular team working on a longterm assignment of very general and generic nature. Drawing conclusions on that is legit - and indeed, Star Trek as a phenomenon hinges on drawing conclusions on the show that started it all.
Timo Saloniemi
A better picture would absolutely be, well, better, much better actually.
And despite the need also for really good pictures of the "C" badge itself, what pictures we have of it in "The Cage" had what, for lack of better words, looks like a cartoon dialog balloon in the center of it. I see enough evidence of that structure here not to doubt the claim. But I will concede that there is a margin of doubt remaining, though part of my doubt is tempered also by the fact that I would consider it quite plausible for a costume used in the first pilot to get reused in the second, where possible.
TL;DR = I agree with you.
Though we can rule that out in this case as the badges in "The Cage" lacked the black border.
The symbols for Science and Engineering were flipped for the second pilot. This is consistent throughout WNMHGB:
I am virtually certain now that Leslie had the spiralish symbol on his patch. Also, because I can’t let small things go, his presence in the dispensary in Science blue suggests that he was an orderly or a corpsman. It wouldn’t be implausible for him acting as a guard, too.
I am virtually certain now that Leslie had the spiralish symbol on his patch. Also, because I can’t let small things go, his presence in the dispensary in Science blue suggests that he was an orderly or a corpsman. It wouldn’t be implausible for him acting as a guard, too.
I'll give "doubling as Security Chief", but as Reed himself specifically Armory Officer and Ordnance Officer (a general name for an officer concerned with the provision, maintenance and operation of artillery (including naval) then I would suggest that Reed was always (one of the) tactical and armory officers, but perhaps only an assistant. It's possible that Reed was serving in a Commander-rank billet (intended for the original XO/2O) for the reasons you suggested and that's partially (other than "Archer said so") why he outranked Hayes.
IMO. it's more likely that he's a guard acting as a medic than a corpsman acting as a guard.
I suppose.
But still, we see no references to security or guards in either pilot--MA's hypotheses not withstanding--, but we do hear of scientists and medical personnel. The only borderline case is Alden: given that he is seated at Uhura's station, he might be the communications officer. On the other hand, he is handling the helm at the beginning of the episode. To add to the ambiguity, he is following Spock's orders to activate the sensor beam (science) as well as the deflectors (command/engineering). Confusing, isn't it?
Maybe Timo's right and this is a Royal Navy craft with a bunch of lieutenants that have their uniforms tailored privately with only notional attention being paid to uniformity. In any event, there does seem to be an awful lot of doubling up on duties for a ship with between 203 and 430 people on board.
But let's make sure history never forgets
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And if the black border was just black thread?
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x03hd/wherenomanhasgonebeforehd500.jpg
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20111216170954&path-prefix=en
The overall size and shape seems correct between these two.
I just wish we knew!
Unless you count the credits of the unaired version.
And if the black border was just black thread?
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x03hd/wherenomanhasgonebeforehd500.jpg
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/e/e2/USS_Enterprise_operations_security_2,_2254.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111216170954&path-prefix=en
The overall size and shape seems correct between these two.
I just wish we knew!
It is a little maddening that Paskey's is about the only badge in the show we can't get a decent look at. But to my eyes, it's pretty clear that the WNMHGB badge in question is of the second type of construction with the black border, not the "C" type from "The Cage."
I'm afraid I'm not following you anymore. What is the second type of construction, and what is the black border and what is "C" type?
Just for the sake of clarity (hopefully), what I was implying, which I will state or restate, depending on how you look at it, is that based on the available information it seems plausible that Paskey's (Leslie's) arrowhead badge in WNMHGB might have been the very "C" badge worn by this actor here (that's one of the two known "C" badges in "The Cage"*), but with a border of black thread around the entire arrowhead attaching it to Paskey's blue shirt. That's how I originally read "black border." But based on what you just said, that I quoted, I'm really no longer sure that our undefined terms that we've been liberally floating around (
) are in alignment.* - Why this one and not the other? To my eye the arrowhead shapes of the two "C" badges in "The Cage" are slightly different. The arrowhead ("delta") shape of this one more closely matches Paskey's than the other's.
Sorry. By second type I meant the kind used in WNMHGB, gold with the black border, as opposed to the type in "The Cage," a more silvery material with a kind of raised ridge around the edge. By "C type" I meant the "Cage" badge with the thing that looks like a C.
C=Crewman
problem solved.
That's for the clarification. Yeah, we're on the same page.
Dual duties ARE very common in TOS. Many of these were had 3+roles, and at least 2 at the same time.
Spock-Sciences/XO. Sulu-(early on)physicist/(later)helm/botany/hand weapons. Chekov-Navigation/Sciences. Uhura-Communication/(sometimes)Navigator. DeSalle-Navigator/Biology/(later)Engineering. Kelowitz-Tactical/anthropology
I have come to believe that for consistencies sake, the symbols in TOS patches are used precisely to show that a crew person has more than one role. The shirt color shows the most obvious, quickly identifiable set of duties, and the patch shows a secondary set, like in TMP.
For example, early seasons 1 green shirt Uhura has a sciences patch. She is a Command officer, who also has a (technical?) sciences role. In the 2nd pilot, Scotty has a khaki/gold shirt, with another (technical?) sciences patch. Both are red shirts later on.
If Leslie was a medic, acting as security, his wearing a blue shirt but with a support patch makes sense. Adding to that Kelowitz was a blue shirt tactical officer with an anthropology background on the ship.
If Tom Paris was wearing a TOS-pilot uniform, I'd speculate that it would be khaki/gold for support, with a sciences patch since he acts as the ship's field medic.
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No he was even got in a crash
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