Scotty as second officer

[Pauln6]

It is for the captain to decide who's officer of the deck for any shift but the first and second officers become the default captains when the captain is off the ship. In some crises they might be asked to take command of the bridge but in many others the officer of deck is fine.

 

[Timo]

Interestingly,

1) Scotty and Spock share Commander sleeve braid from the first regular ep on
2) Spock is nevertheless identified as Lieutenant Commander early on, while Scotty never is
3) Spock identifies himself as Second Officer in the early "The Enemy Within"

so we might argue that Spock only got promoted to full Commander rank and First Officer position some time after the TOS pilot, and in fact Scotty used to be Kirk's First Officer until very recently. The two share braid in the pilot, too, this time single braid (either Lieutenant by the regular system, or Lieutenant Commander because that's what Mitchell's single braid is identified as), but Scotty might be much senior in that rank, and promoted ahead of Spock (in the aftermath of the casualties of the pilot, with eleven people dead including one explicit top officer at said single braid rank).

Spock's "lapses" to his former rank and position would not speak of early onset of Bendii: they would reflect the tardiness of Starfleet bureaucracy and/or the prevarications of Kirk in re-establishing his top command structure after the loss of Mitchell. Spock might very well have been Kirk's third-in-command that week, while Scotty was extremely busy with the transporters!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GNDN18]

Scotty and Spock share Commander sleeve braid from the first regular ep on

 

[Timo]

...D'oh!

Then again, I just misplaced eight million euros. Perhaps it's time for coffee?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Back from coffee, and the millions are again in Column A. So, amend the above to "they both used to be Lieutenant Commanders until recently, but Scotty was senior to that rank, and therefore Kirk's 1st Officer during his Time of Tumult"?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Generally something in the Operations field most likely, given that known Second Officers include Engineer Tucker, Engineer Scott, Operations Manager Data, Security Chief/Tactical Officer Tuvok, however not necessarily as Science Officers Spock and Dax were initially Second Officer (though Dax dropped down to Third or even Fourth after Eddington and Worf's arrival), and Science Officer Airiam also appears to Second Officer with a dual ops/science role.

But those officers' normal duties would be related to the functions of the operations, engineering, security or science departments as the case may be. What was said before, or at least as I understood it, was that second officer was a job all on its own, not held by an officer of a particular department.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

not held by an officer of a particular department.

Though command might be the most natural. What would a second officer do in between firefights and temporary promotions?

 

[trekshark]

Though command might be the most natural. What would a second officer do in between firefights and temporary promotions?

Sit in the big chair for the night shift

 

[Commishsleer]

Back from coffee, and the millions are again in Column A. So, amend the above to "they both used to be Lieutenant Commanders until recently, but Scotty was senior to that rank, and therefore Kirk's 1st Officer during his Time of Tumult"?

Timo Saloniemi

Spock was acting like a first officer in WNMHGB.
Kirk's never really confided in Scotty like he's the First Officer. From the beginning of TOS Spock has always been in that role of confidant .

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Interestingly,

1) Scotty and Spock share Commander sleeve braid from the first regular ep on
2) Spock is nevertheless identified as Lieutenant Commander early on, while Scotty never is
3) Spock identifies himself as Second Officer in the early "The Enemy Within"

so we might argue that Spock only got promoted to full Commander rank and First Officer position some time after the TOS pilot, and in fact Scotty used to be Kirk's First Officer until very recently. The two share braid in the pilot, too, this time single braid (either Lieutenant by the regular system, or Lieutenant Commander because that's what Mitchell's single braid is identified as), but Scotty might be much senior in that rank, and promoted ahead of Spock (in the aftermath of the casualties of the pilot, with eleven people dead including one explicit top officer at said single braid rank).

Spock's "lapses" to his former rank and position would not speak of early onset of Bendii: they would reflect the tardiness of Starfleet bureaucracy and/or the prevarications of Kirk in re-establishing his top command structure after the loss of Mitchell. Spock might very well have been Kirk's third-in-command that week, while Scotty was extremely busy with the transporters!

Timo Saloniemi

Great thoughts. I just justify it like this:

Spock is the second in command in the 2nd pilot because he is the only 1-stripe wearing command green. Kelso was next in line as he is at the Helm station, but it is Scotty after Kelso's death.

In the regular series, Spock is really a LTCMDR for any number of episodes, but he wears the 2 stripes because he is the 1st officer. In the Navy, a person of that rank would still be addressed as "Commander," so we don't know when Spock actually got promoted, if ever before he became a Captain.

I think maybe 2nd officer was just to replace the slang of "2nd mate," it means the same thing as "1st Officer," in that context.

This makes things seem consistent if a little confusing

 

[Timo]

Spock was acting like a first officer in WNMHGB.

Yeah, that's more or less what I'm trying to suggest here.

1) In the pilot, Spock was only the First Officer, wearing the appropriate gold shirt of Command and the rank braid of Lieutenant Commander. He didn't sit on two chairs yet. Scotty down on Engineering held the same rank, but had held it longer, i.e. was Spock's senior in the pecking order; his special job as Chief Engineer meant he remained Second Officer only, though, with the red (dark tan) shirt.

2) After eleven people died, Spock became the Chief Science Officer (perhaps replacing Sulu, who appeared to hold that position in the pilot, but may now have been needed at Helm with Mitchell dead) and the Second Officer, and the still-identically-braided-but-senior-in-rank Scotty became the First Officer (while remaining Chief Engineer).

3) After a short while, Kirk came to realize that the Vulcan ought to be the one doing two demanding jobs simultaneously, while Scotty could get back to his boiler room and concentrate on the good job he was doing there. Spock got "field" promotion to full Commander, but due to some arcane Starfleet technicality he remained a Lieutenant Commander in the records (and perhaps on the payroll) despite having the braid and the authority of the new rank.

We just missed most of the transition, but we see the tail end in early TOS nevertheless, with Spock still the Second Officer and third-in-command, and with his old rank mentioned in official context even though in practice he uses the new one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

Yeah, that's more or less what I'm trying to suggest here.

1) In the pilot, Spock was only the First Officer, wearing the appropriate gold shirt of Command and the rank braid of Lieutenant Commander. He didn't sit on two chairs yet. Scotty down on Engineering held the same rank, but had held it longer, i.e. was Spock's senior in the pecking order; his special job as Chief Engineer meant he remained Second Officer only, though, with the red (dark tan) shirt.

2) After eleven people died, Spock became the Chief Science Officer (perhaps replacing Sulu, who appeared to hold that position in the pilot, but may now have been needed at Helm with Mitchell dead) and the Second Officer, and the still-identically-braided-but-senior-in-rank Scotty became the First Officer (while remaining Chief Engineer).

3) After a short while, Kirk came to realize that the Vulcan ought to be the one doing two demanding jobs simultaneously, while Scotty could get back to his boiler room and concentrate on the good job he was doing there. Spock got "field" promotion to full Commander, but due to some arcane Starfleet technicality he remained a Lieutenant Commander in the records (and perhaps on the payroll) despite having the braid and the authority of the new rank.

We just missed most of the transition, but we see the tail end in early TOS nevertheless, with Spock still the Second Officer and third-in-command, and with his old rank mentioned in official context even though in practice he uses the new one.

Timo Saloniemi

Maybe it was Spock's 'first command ' on the Galileo 7 that tipped the balance !

 

[Timo]

Once we choose to descend down this path of rationalization, it becomes a chronology question first and moremost. Did mentions of Spock as First Officer predate those of him as Second Officer?

IMHO, there are two ways to do this: adhere to stardates, or don't. If you don't (if you, say, are fine with production order), then it again IMHO follows that you can reshuffle the episodes as you please, until Spock logically proceeds from Second to First Office. Nothing in the adventures themselves favors the exact production order as such, after all.

If you do, then SD 1672 becomes the benchmark when Spock "still" is Second Officer. And this is smooth sailing: AFAIK, the first-ever dialogue reference to Spock as Kirk's First Officer comes as late as "Operation: Annihilate!", and even key pieces like "Court Martial" safely postdate the benchmark from "The Enemy Within".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Kirk's never really confided in Scotty like he's the First Officer.

Well, he wasn't the first officer, so that's not surprising.

I think maybe 2nd officer was just to replace the slang of "2nd mate," it means the same thing as "1st Officer," in that context.

Both originate in merchant ships. The official title of the "captain" was master (master mariner), and his assistants were mates. In the 1700s the title of captain began to be used as a courtesy by merchant masters. When steamships brought in the world of scheduled liners, the word "officer" was substituted for mate because it was thought to sound classier to passengers. When engineers became part of merchant ships, the title of "chief officer" began to be used instead of first officer (or in addition to, in some lines) to show its position in relation to the chief engineer. In the aviation world, captain and first officer were substituted for pilot and co-pilot because people thought that a co-pilot was less qualified than a pilot.

Why Star Trek adopted first officer for the second-in-command I have no idea, but the old US Navy term "exec" did pop up in "Obsession" and TMP.

 

[Phaser Two]

Spock was acting like a first officer in WNMHGB.
Kirk's never really confided in Scotty like he's the First Officer. From the beginning of TOS Spock has always been in that role of confidant .

Well, true, but only because there were limited opportunities for that sort of Kirk-Scotty interaction. There are actually very few episodes where Kirk and Scotty are present and together, but Spock is missing. But in those few such situations that actually exist, Kirk *does* repose confidence and trust in Scotty. For example:

1. In "Mirror, Mirror," Kirk relies heavily on Scotty while on the I.S.S. Enterprise, including classifying the security research "under my voiceprint or Mr. Scott's."

2. In "City" (even though Spock isn't absent; he's just busy determining when they should jump), Kirk tells Scotty that he, Uhura, and the guards will each have to attempt the same restoration of the timeline if Kirk & Spock fail.

3. In "Spock's Brain" - in yet another of many great little touches that cements the episode in my mind as not merely above the derision it usually receives, but an unsung TOS gem - Scotty immediately and seamlessly slides into the first officer role after Spock is incapacitated. He automatically accompanies Kirk to sickbay, when McCoy calls up after Spock disappears from the bridge, without any orders to do so. For the remainder of the episode, he is a key player in what is essentially Spock's role.

4. Although I am not a great fan of "The Enterprise Incident," there are some good Kirk-Scotty captain-first officer moments once McCoy calls Scotty down to sickbay and reveals the ruse.

Those are just off the top of my head. Another great "Scotty as second officer" moment (albeit with Spock present) occurs in "Wink of an Eye," when the computer gives its recommendation to negotiate with the as-yet-undisclosed Scalosians, Kirk dismisses the idea, then immediately asks Scotty, "You concur?" "Aye."

I'm a relentless Scotty fan and thus perhaps a bit biased, but honestly, the producers' correct recognition that Doohan was fantastic and that Scotty should be the regular third-in-command significantly elevated the overall content of the series in late S1, S2 and S3.

 

[GNDN18]

Why Star Trek adopted first officer for the second-in-command I have no idea, but the old US Navy term "exec" did pop up in "Obsession" and TMP.

I think GR’s time as a commercial airline pilot led to that. That is, if Wikipedia is to be trusted.

There’s a certain cadence to “Obsession” that feels authentic, as if Starfleet was a military organization or something. I don’t know much about Art Wallace’s background, but he seemed to have set this episode on an escort carrier in the mid-Pacific.

 

[Phaser Two]

I think GR’s time as a commercial airline pilot led to that. That is, if Wikipedia is to be trusted.

There’s a certain cadence to “Obsession” that feels authentic, as of Starfleet was a military organization or something. I don’t know much about Art Wallace’s background, but he seemed to have set this episode on an escort carrier in the mid-Pacific.

I wish I could like this post 1,000 times as I've said this before on this board and it matches my sentiments exactly. I don't know Art Wallace's background either, but Obsession is not only for my money the most military-styled episode of TOS, but also one of the ones (along with The Doomsday Machine) in which we learn the most about how Constitution-class starships function. In Obsession we actually get dialogue about Scotty doing an "AID cleanup" of the impulse engines!!

It's fantastic.

 

[Commishsleer]

Back from coffee, and the millions are again in Column A. So, amend the above to "they both used to be Lieutenant Commanders until recently, but Scotty was senior to that rank, and therefore Kirk's 1st Officer during his Time of Tumult"?


Timo Saloniemi

How do you know Scotty had been a Lt Commander longer than Spock?
How do we know that the most senior person aboard would be exec or 1st Officer anyway. I imagine that Kirk would have some choice in 1st Officer - not having to take the most senior officer. Probably he couldn't choose an ensign but I imagine he could choose any officer of the highest rank either Commander or Lt Commander.

Scotty would have made a fine 1st Officer except that he was always needed in Engineering. He had no competent second in command for engineering Kirk was always stretching the capacity of his ship so Engineering always needed to be manned. I don't think he wanted the job anyway - probably bored to death by it.

 

[Timo]

I don't "know" anything much, but Scotty is the only Lieutenant Commander aboard who could have been Kirk's First Officer at the time Spock declared himself to be mere Second Officer.

Scotty being older than Spock might cater for Scotty being senior to the rank. OTOH, Scotty jumps in from a supposed civilian career, while Spock supposedly goes through the standard Starfleet Academy rigamarole. Perhaps Scotty gets extra promotion points from his prior experience, while Spock gets some from being a rare Vulcan?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kirk1701A]

In TOS is Scotty the second officer (Sulu the third). In TNG is Data the second officer