Rick Berman's an ***hole

[CoveTom]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

This thread is so predictable. Berman was in charge of the franchise from TNG through Enterprise, and everything bad that happened is his fault, yet everything good that happened was to the credit of Piller, Behr, Moore, etc. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Heard it all before. Still bullshit.

Next?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

How can be it nostalgia when it still seems to happen on a somewhat regular basis?

Because Turd Ferguson did great big rants about it back in the day, and even an extended written saga about the harebrained schemes of B&B (or do I have the wrong turd?)

But yes, it's also true that it is time for us to let B&B bashing go. It's old school and these days every bit as timely as Fred Freiberger bashing.

Yep... I'm the same Turd

 

[Anji]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Hey Turd, don't apologize for speaking the truth. It's not bashing, it's hard cold fact. If Berman did a good job we'd still have a Star Trek series in production.

 

[Klaitu]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Ordinarily, I'd be all up in Berman's grill because he was the Captain, and as we all know.. the Captain is responsible for the crew under his command.

Though in actuality, I believe that most of the foul ups that happened in later Trek were not directly attributable to Rick Berman, but to Brannon Braga, Jeri Taylor, and Michael Piller. (though Braga is probably the least of the offenders)

 

[ALF]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Ordinarily, I'd be all up in Berman's grill because he was the Captain, and as we all know.. the Captain is responsible for the crew under his command.

Michael Pillar as the first officer in charge of radishes
Jeri Taylor as the ship's counselor
Brannon Braga as Neelix

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

This thread is so predictable. Berman was in charge of the franchise from TNG through Enterprise, and everything bad that happened is his fault, yet everything good that happened was to the credit of Piller, Behr, Moore, etc. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Heard it all before. Still bullshit.

Next?

I wish that people would blame GENE RODDENBERRY for what happened to the franchise-his blinders about human nature is what contributed to the malaise that the franchise suffered (TNG, Voyager & Enterprise). If only somebody had slapped him on the hand and told him that what he thought human beings were in the 24th century was bollocks, things might have become different. But they didn't, and now the franchise is where it is now. B&B only carried out what he likely told them to do, and they get blamed for what happened? Sorry, but most of the fault lies with The Great Bird Of The Galaxy.

 

[Klaitu]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

This thread is so predictable. Berman was in charge of the franchise from TNG through Enterprise, and everything bad that happened is his fault, yet everything good that happened was to the credit of Piller, Behr, Moore, etc. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Heard it all before. Still bullshit.

Next?

I wish that people would blame GENE RODDENBERRY for what happened to the franchise-his blinders about human nature is what contributed to the malaise that the franchise suffered (TNG, Voyager & Enterprise). If only somebody had slapped him on the hand and told him that what he thought human beings were in the 24th century was bollocks, things might have become different. But they didn't, and now the franchise is where it is now. B&B only carried out what he likely told them to do, and they get blamed for what happened? Sorry, but most of the fault lies with The Great Bird Of The Galaxy.

Well, there's a problem with blaming Gene Roddenberry in that he was sort of dead before DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise were even created.. and sure, they tried to follow the Roddenberry ideal, but the Roddenberry Ideal doesn't specifically include things like salamander babies, or technobabble solutions.

Roddenberry had his problems, but Trek took a nosedive almost 10 years after his death.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

This thread is so predictable. Berman was in charge of the franchise from TNG through Enterprise, and everything bad that happened is his fault, yet everything good that happened was to the credit of Piller, Behr, Moore, etc. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Heard it all before. Still bullshit.

Next?

I wish that people would blame GENE RODDENBERRY for what happened to the franchise-his blinders about human nature is what contributed to the malaise that the franchise suffered (TNG, Voyager & Enterprise). If only somebody had slapped him on the hand and told him that what he thought human beings were in the 24th century was bollocks, things might have become different. But they didn't, and now the franchise is where it is now. B&B only carried out what he likely told them to do, and they get blamed for what happened? Sorry, but most of the fault lies with The Great Bird Of The Galaxy.

Well, there's a problem with blaming Gene Roddenberry in that he was sort of dead before DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise were even created.. and sure, they tried to follow the Roddenberry ideal, but the Roddenberry Ideal doesn't specifically include things like salamander babies, or technobabble solutions.

Roddenberry had his problems, but Trek took a nosedive almost 10 years after his death.

I'm sorry, but yes, most of it is Roddenberry's fault, he was the one that created the template for TNG & Voyager that B&B followed to a T, and he deserves that blame, B&B not so much. This 'blaming B&B' bullshit is just that-bullshit. CoverTom's right-time to move on.

 

[Klaitu]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

I wish that people would blame GENE RODDENBERRY for what happened to the franchise-his blinders about human nature is what contributed to the malaise that the franchise suffered (TNG, Voyager & Enterprise). If only somebody had slapped him on the hand and told him that what he thought human beings were in the 24th century was bollocks, things might have become different. But they didn't, and now the franchise is where it is now. B&B only carried out what he likely told them to do, and they get blamed for what happened? Sorry, but most of the fault lies with The Great Bird Of The Galaxy.

Well, there's a problem with blaming Gene Roddenberry in that he was sort of dead before DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise were even created.. and sure, they tried to follow the Roddenberry ideal, but the Roddenberry Ideal doesn't specifically include things like salamander babies, or technobabble solutions.

Roddenberry had his problems, but Trek took a nosedive almost 10 years after his death.

I'm sorry, but yes, most of it is Roddenberry's fault, he was the one that created the template for TNG & Voyager that B&B followed to a T, and he deserves that blame, B&B not so much. This 'blaming B&B' bullshit is just that-bullshit. CoverTom's right-time to move on.

I disagree entirely. After Roddenberry's death, the people left behind began to generally and gradually pull away from Roddenberry's philosophy.

In particular the "Space Pirates" episode of TNG was directly against Roddenberry's credo that there are no space pirates. Furthermore, DS9 was completely outside the roddenberrian philosophy. O'Brien and Bashir not liking one another at first? Roddenberry insisted that clashes between the crew should not exist in the 24th century.

Personally, I think Star Trek hit it's golden age as it seperated somewhat from Roddenberry's original vision. The Dominon War, for example, was a great storytelling vehicle that Roddenberry would have never gone for.

Ultimately though, I think that Star Trek suffered due to poor choices ("Let's make a prequel") and bad writing ("Warp 10 salamanders, sure, why not?") that occurred many years after his death.

 

[ALF]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

I thought this thread was about being drunk?

 

[Broccoli]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Ultimately though, I think that Star Trek suffered due to poor choices ("Let's make a prequel") and bad writing ("Warp 10 salamanders, sure, why not?") that occurred many years after his death.

Star Trek "suffered" more so due to UPN, who roadblocked many of the ideas and story lines TPTB wanted to go with, such as "Year of Hell" actually being an entire season story arc (with presumably no reset) and Enterprise not being set in space its first year with no transporters nor TCW.

 

[CoveTom]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Under Berman's tenure, particularly in Deep Space Nine, they often worked to bend the Roddenberry rules. But Berman was, for better or worse, adamant that they not break them. Despite the fact that people tend to hail Roddenberry as the Star Trek visionary and Berman as the Star Trek destroyer, Berman was actually quite concerned with making sure what they did -- at least most of it -- would have met with Roddenberry's approval.

And, interestingly enough, so was Michael Piller, who most people around these parts hail as the savior of a downward-spiraling TNG. He actually found Roddenberry's dictates to be a positive challenge for the writers leading them toward better stories, rather than the shackles most writers described them as.

In any case, my point was not to debate whether each individual series was good or bad or anything like that. My point was that -regardless- of which series you like or dislike, Berman deserves some of the credit and some of the blame. He was the guy in ultimate charge from about the third season of TNG through the end of Enterprise. You can't give him all the blame for things you don't like, and give everyone but him credit for the things you do. That's all I'm saying.

 

[ClayinCA]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Bennett was probably pretty tired of the Trek ego trips, having been treated badly by Nimoy on TVH.

You know, I keep hearing about this - what exactly happened, does anyone know? I had thought that Nimoy and Bennett had a good relationship...

 

[superstring01]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Rick Berman's an asshole

Yeah. . . we pretty much all knew that.

~String

 

[GeorgeKirk]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

I used to be a huge member of the Brotherhood of Berman-Haters, but it's hard to tell which bad decisions were truly his and which ones were forced upon him by Paramount.

It was Paramount who presented him with a list of disparate plot elements that had to be incorporated into the film that became Generations. It was Paramount that wanted Voyager on the air less than a year after TNG ended. And despite Voyager's declining ratings and the increasing dissatisfaction with it within the fanbase, it was Paramount that ordered Berman to give them another show just like it.

I think his main problem was that he didn't really understand what made Star Trek tick, yet he was held responsible for making sure it remained a cash cow for the studio. He did the best he could with the skill set that he had, but eventually his limitations as a creator combined with the studio's constant demands for more of the same proved to be the undoing of his tenure on the franchise.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

By far the worst single year of Star Trek--worse than ENT, worse than VOY, worse than TOS's third season--was season one of TNG. That was Roddenberry. Berman has his faults and they are truly legion but he is hardly the quintessential devil we'd like to make him out to be.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

By far the worst single year of Star Trek--worse than ENT, worse than VOY, worse than TOS's third season--was season one of TNG. That was Roddenberry. Berman has his faults and they are truly legion but he is hardly the quintessential devil we'd like to make him out to be.

I didn't say a devil... just as asshole

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Oh. Oh, well that's okay, then. Carry on.

(Pablo Picasso never got called an asshole.)

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Ditto.

The biggest problem with Rick Berman is that he stayed in charge for too long. Science fiction fandom is notorious for turning on creators -- in particular show runners -- if they stay around for too long. It happened on Doctor Who with John Nathan Turner, and was beginning to happen with Russell T. Davies (making his choice to step aside a smart one). People have been wanting to see someone other than George Lucas take over Star Wars for a long time.

People are only pissed off with Lucas because they're morons who couldn't even see through to the truths about American society being shown in the prequels, and also because they wanted the same kind of characters as in the previous trilogy (for more of what I'm saying, check out this review of The Phantom Menace-Star Wars Blogging-Episode I: The Phantom Menace)

And while JJ Abrams is still in the "honeymoon" phase with Trek fans, he has worn out his welcome with some contingents of Lost fandom, as has the Moore/Eick team on BSG/Caprica. Even Roddenberry was getting up some people's noses by 1989 -- remember Star Trek V was made on his watch. And I was hearing people beginning to curse Joss Whedon's name towards the end of Buffy and Angel. I'm not oblivious to the fact that Voyager and Enterprise and the later TNG films were not to everyone's liking, but I personally think they could have been stone-dead classics and people would still have been calling for Berman's ouster.

Check out my sig at the end of this post to see what I feel about these so-called 'fans' and their constant, confounded bitching, moaning, and whining about the franchise (or if you don't, I'll post it here

Star Trek Fandom (1966-1979)

The current generations are nothing but a bunch of whiny frakheads bitching from the anonymity of the Internet who can't write a script to save their lives.

That's all most of them are. And they will never be satisfied unless they can write an episode or a movie, but instead of getting off of their spotty behinds and making said dream become reality, they boot up the computer and just bitch about the franchise like babies who want their diapers changed. Abrams, Orci & Kurtzman should ignore them and tell them to fuck off, but being gentlemen, they won't. It's high time they did.

Evidence in support are all those saying "don't let the door hit you" to Russell T. Davies, despite his having just overseen the most successful era (critically, ratings-wise, audience appreciation wise, and financially) in Doctor Who history.

Wish that Davies could say the same as well.

Whether it's right or wrong, it's happened too frequently in other fandoms to be just a one-off thing. Had Berman left at the end of DS9 and a regime change had occurred before Voyager and Enterprise and the later movies came along, he might be more kindly remembered. If Abrams stays with the franchise, I wouldn't recommend he stay for more than a couple more movies and not get involved in a TV series (or if he does, exit after the first year or two). Otherwise we'll have people someday composing "JJ Abrams' an asshole" threads while three sheets to the wind.

Alex

I would add to that and say no more than three more movies, with the rest of the cast following suit.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Bennett was probably pretty tired of the Trek ego trips, having been treated badly by Nimoy on TVH.

You know, I keep hearing about this - what exactly happened, does anyone know? I had thought that Nimoy and Bennett had a good relationship...

They had a fairly good relationship during the making of Star Trek III, but it went off the rails during the making of Star Trek IV. Nimoy wanted more involvement in the making of the film than just being the director, he and Bennett clashed over pretty much everything, and Bennett eventually threw his hands up in despair and stopped visiting the set.

After the film wrapped, Nimoy and Bennett were able to bury the hatchet to some extent, and Nimoy became Bennett's AA sponsor.