Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
Who is Rick Berman anyway? Was he the bad guy in Die Hard?
Who is Rick Berman anyway? Was he the bad guy in Die Hard?
Rick Berman's an ***hole
- Thread starter Turd Ferguson
- Start date
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
Ditto.
The biggest problem with Rick Berman is that he stayed in charge for too long. Science fiction fandom is notorious for turning on creators -- in particular show runners -- if they stay around for too long. It happened on Doctor Who with John Nathan Turner, and was beginning to happen with Russell T. Davies (making his choice to step aside a smart one). People have been wanting to see someone other than George Lucas take over Star Wars for a long time. And while JJ Abrams is still in the "honeymoon" phase with Trek fans, he has worn out his welcome with some contingents of Lost fandom, as has the Moore/Eick team on BSG/Caprica. Even Roddenberry was getting up some people's noses by 1989 -- remember Star Trek V was made on his watch. And I was hearing people beginning to curse Joss Whedon's name towards the end of Buffy and Angel. I'm not oblivious to the fact that Voyager and Enterprise and the later TNG films were not to everyone's liking, but I personally think they could have been stone-dead classics and people would still have been calling for Berman's ouster. Evidence in support are all those saying "don't let the door hit you" to Russell T. Davies, despite his having just overseen the most successful era (critically, ratings-wise, audience appreciation wise, and financially) in Doctor Who history.
Whether it's right or wrong, it's happened too frequently in other fandoms to be just a one-off thing. Had Berman left at the end of DS9 and a regime change had occurred before Voyager and Enterprise and the later movies came along, he might be more kindly remembered. If Abrams stays with the franchise, I wouldn't recommend he stay for more than a couple more movies and not get involved in a TV series (or if he does, exit after the first year or two). Otherwise we'll have people someday composing "JJ Abrams' an asshole" threads while three sheets to the wind.
Alex
Ditto.
The biggest problem with Rick Berman is that he stayed in charge for too long. Science fiction fandom is notorious for turning on creators -- in particular show runners -- if they stay around for too long. It happened on Doctor Who with John Nathan Turner, and was beginning to happen with Russell T. Davies (making his choice to step aside a smart one). People have been wanting to see someone other than George Lucas take over Star Wars for a long time. And while JJ Abrams is still in the "honeymoon" phase with Trek fans, he has worn out his welcome with some contingents of Lost fandom, as has the Moore/Eick team on BSG/Caprica. Even Roddenberry was getting up some people's noses by 1989 -- remember Star Trek V was made on his watch. And I was hearing people beginning to curse Joss Whedon's name towards the end of Buffy and Angel. I'm not oblivious to the fact that Voyager and Enterprise and the later TNG films were not to everyone's liking, but I personally think they could have been stone-dead classics and people would still have been calling for Berman's ouster. Evidence in support are all those saying "don't let the door hit you" to Russell T. Davies, despite his having just overseen the most successful era (critically, ratings-wise, audience appreciation wise, and financially) in Doctor Who history.
Whether it's right or wrong, it's happened too frequently in other fandoms to be just a one-off thing. Had Berman left at the end of DS9 and a regime change had occurred before Voyager and Enterprise and the later movies came along, he might be more kindly remembered. If Abrams stays with the franchise, I wouldn't recommend he stay for more than a couple more movies and not get involved in a TV series (or if he does, exit after the first year or two). Otherwise we'll have people someday composing "JJ Abrams' an asshole" threads while three sheets to the wind.
Alex
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
But yes, in retrospect the TNG film franchise was a waste, which is a shame as I did love the show.
And 23skidoo, in fairnesss to Gene Roddenberry Star Trek V was in no way on his 'watch'. He had no control or appreciable input into the film and publicly denounced aspects as non-canon.
He was widely blamed for the failings of the first Star Trek film, however, and that basically ended his control of the Trek film franchise. His consultant role on every film after that was sorta honourary, he could send off missivies but everyone could (and typically did) ignore him.
He wouldn't get back into control of any of the Trek franchise until TNG, and his managing of that show in the first season was not very good. Thankfully for the series his management didn't last long there either.
And Berman? Yeah. His problem was being there too long, but he was also the guy who revitalized TNG by bringing in Piller and co.; and he did a lot of good for the francise under his watch. That era's gone now, let's remember what came out of it which we liked and let the rest go away.
Oh, come on. It's Turd Ferguson's thing, much more than any of us. This thread is filling me with Berman & Braga Bashing Nostalgia. Those were good days.Once again, all the ills of the world are Rick Berman's fault.
But yes, in retrospect the TNG film franchise was a waste, which is a shame as I did love the show.
And 23skidoo, in fairnesss to Gene Roddenberry Star Trek V was in no way on his 'watch'. He had no control or appreciable input into the film and publicly denounced aspects as non-canon.
He was widely blamed for the failings of the first Star Trek film, however, and that basically ended his control of the Trek film franchise. His consultant role on every film after that was sorta honourary, he could send off missivies but everyone could (and typically did) ignore him.
He wouldn't get back into control of any of the Trek franchise until TNG, and his managing of that show in the first season was not very good. Thankfully for the series his management didn't last long there either.
And Berman? Yeah. His problem was being there too long, but he was also the guy who revitalized TNG by bringing in Piller and co.; and he did a lot of good for the francise under his watch. That era's gone now, let's remember what came out of it which we liked and let the rest go away.
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
Berman i a fine producer. He should not, however, be a writer or one to make creative/story decisions.
Berman i a fine producer. He should not, however, be a writer or one to make creative/story decisions.
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
I feeeeeel your hate.
I feeeeeel your hate.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
He didn't bring Piller on; Piller came with Michael Wagner, the guy hired to produce season 3 who quit right away, and Piller just happened to be there. They fell up into Piller, they didn't really pick him at all.
Berman never made good calls on the show, he was always messing with the music and trashing Probert's designs and most everything else that was vaguely different or interesting. All this 'stayed too long' crap is only valid if you're saying 'he stayed more than a month'
He didn't bring Piller on; Piller came with Michael Wagner, the guy hired to produce season 3 who quit right away, and Piller just happened to be there. They fell up into Piller, they didn't really pick him at all.
Berman never made good calls on the show, he was always messing with the music and trashing Probert's designs and most everything else that was vaguely different or interesting. All this 'stayed too long' crap is only valid if you're saying 'he stayed more than a month'
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
Well some people try to make Trek films, they get called assholes
This never happened to Pablo Picasso
Trekkie's would turn the color of a juicy avocado
When he would drive on the lot with his El Dorado.
He was only five foot three but Trek could not resist his stare
Pablo Picasso never got called an asshole--
Not like you.
(Apologies to Jonathan Richman and David Bowie)
Well some people try to make Trek films, they get called assholes
This never happened to Pablo Picasso
Trekkie's would turn the color of a juicy avocado
When he would drive on the lot with his El Dorado.
He was only five foot three but Trek could not resist his stare
Pablo Picasso never got called an asshole--
Not like you.
(Apologies to Jonathan Richman and David Bowie)
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
We'll have to write off DS9 then, and I rather wouldn't as I liked that show.
Oh?
We'll have to write off DS9 then, and I rather wouldn't as I liked that show.
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
I don't. He thought Kes wasn't working as a character, but thought Neelix was.
For that he's an a**hole.
I don't. He thought Kes wasn't working as a character, but thought Neelix was.
For that he's an a**hole.
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
I think you URGENTLY need to look up the confessions you posted shortly afterwards on the Sexy Moscow Chicks thread on the My Most Memorable Holidays website!!!
I think you URGENTLY need to look up the confessions you posted shortly afterwards on the Sexy Moscow Chicks thread on the My Most Memorable Holidays website!!!
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
Just to jump in randomly, one thing I didn't like about the TNG movies is how they continually seemed to find one excuse after another for Worf to somehow end up back on the Enterprise for the period of the movie.
Insurection was the worst excuse...... he was just in the neighborhood it seemed.
Mind you, I like Worf..... but put a little effort into why he is back on the Enterprise, geez.
Just to jump in randomly, one thing I didn't like about the TNG movies is how they continually seemed to find one excuse after another for Worf to somehow end up back on the Enterprise for the period of the movie.
Insurection was the worst excuse...... he was just in the neighborhood it seemed.
Mind you, I like Worf..... but put a little effort into why he is back on the Enterprise, geez.
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
I bet it would be aimed against Ron Moore. Or his Mexican gardener for leaving the dog shit on his lawn. But what Rick Berman doesn't know is that Ron Moore is pretending to be a Mexican gardener in order to put the dog shit on Berman's lawn.
(I thought I'd get into the spirit of the thread an have a few drinks before posting.)
Now that would be a thread! This one not so much.
I bet it would be aimed against Ron Moore. Or his Mexican gardener for leaving the dog shit on his lawn. But what Rick Berman doesn't know is that Ron Moore is pretending to be a Mexican gardener in order to put the dog shit on Berman's lawn.
(I thought I'd get into the spirit of the thread an have a few drinks before posting.)
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
And in the Admirals' Lounge?
It'd be a mandatory prerequisite.
And in the Admirals' Lounge?
It'd be a mandatory prerequisite.
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
No Trek film was made on Roddenberry's watch after TMP. From Trek II forward, Roddenberry wasn't anything more than a token figure, an Executive Producer / Consultant to put on the credits to keep the fans happy his name was still attached to the films. The producers were free to ignore anything he said about the films, and mostly they did.
If you want to blame a producer for Star Trek V, blame Harve Bennett for not telling Shatner his ideas sucked, or that maybe Kirk doesn't need to be given a two hour valentine. Although, as this point, Bennett was probably pretty tired of the Trek ego trips, having been treated badly by Nimoy on TVH. He just wanted to do this and then get started on the Academy film where egos wouldn't be an issue. Too bad he got shafted. I wonder how similar his treatment was to the Abrams film? I do remember it ending a lot more logically, with everyone going off to their first assignments...and not the Enterprise.
Or blame the Paramount execs for kissing Shatner's ass so hard they let him create the story instead of just saying "You can direct, but you won't write a thing. Take it or leave it."
Trek V may have turned out sloppily, but the problems were there from inception. This was probably a time they SHOULD have listened to Roddenberry.
No Trek film was made on Roddenberry's watch after TMP. From Trek II forward, Roddenberry wasn't anything more than a token figure, an Executive Producer / Consultant to put on the credits to keep the fans happy his name was still attached to the films. The producers were free to ignore anything he said about the films, and mostly they did.
If you want to blame a producer for Star Trek V, blame Harve Bennett for not telling Shatner his ideas sucked, or that maybe Kirk doesn't need to be given a two hour valentine. Although, as this point, Bennett was probably pretty tired of the Trek ego trips, having been treated badly by Nimoy on TVH. He just wanted to do this and then get started on the Academy film where egos wouldn't be an issue. Too bad he got shafted. I wonder how similar his treatment was to the Abrams film? I do remember it ending a lot more logically, with everyone going off to their first assignments...and not the Enterprise.
Or blame the Paramount execs for kissing Shatner's ass so hard they let him create the story instead of just saying "You can direct, but you won't write a thing. Take it or leave it."
Trek V may have turned out sloppily, but the problems were there from inception. This was probably a time they SHOULD have listened to Roddenberry.
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
Rick Berman was responsible for keeping the characters in TNG from really expanding and growing by keeping them pretty much perfect and flawless, for me TNG has aged badly because of that and he was the one who kept things that way. TNG could have grown and expaned beyond Roddenberry's initial humanist vision but Berman did a good job keeping that from happening and really restricting the writers. DS9's War angle, which I still think mirrored Babylon 5's way too closely, allowed for more character change and development and for me has aged better than TNG has and its precisely because it was allowed to do things that Berman objected about. Berman should have done better with Voyager which was a little flat and didn't make much sense in execution; that ship should have always been on the verge of breaking down. Enterprise was awful, 'nough said.
Star Trek under Berman was the cheep era of Trek when they were trying to milk the fans, us the Trekkies, for all they could get without expanding the fan base in any meaningful way.
I am glad Berman is gone, and wish he had left sooner than he did.
Rick Berman was responsible for keeping the characters in TNG from really expanding and growing by keeping them pretty much perfect and flawless, for me TNG has aged badly because of that and he was the one who kept things that way. TNG could have grown and expaned beyond Roddenberry's initial humanist vision but Berman did a good job keeping that from happening and really restricting the writers. DS9's War angle, which I still think mirrored Babylon 5's way too closely, allowed for more character change and development and for me has aged better than TNG has and its precisely because it was allowed to do things that Berman objected about. Berman should have done better with Voyager which was a little flat and didn't make much sense in execution; that ship should have always been on the verge of breaking down. Enterprise was awful, 'nough said.
Star Trek under Berman was the cheep era of Trek when they were trying to milk the fans, us the Trekkies, for all they could get without expanding the fan base in any meaningful way.
I am glad Berman is gone, and wish he had left sooner than he did.
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
How can be it nostalgia when it still seems to happen on a somewhat regular basis?
Oh, come on. It's Turd Ferguson's thing, much more than any of us. This thread is filling me with Berman & Braga Bashing Nostalgia. Those were good days.Once again, all the ills of the world are Rick Berman's fault.
How can be it nostalgia when it still seems to happen on a somewhat regular basis?
Re: Rick Berman's an asshole
But yes, it's also true that it is time for us to let B&B bashing go. It's old school and these days every bit as timely as Fred Freiberger bashing.
Because Turd Ferguson did great big rants about it back in the day, and even an extended written saga about the harebrained schemes of B&B (or do I have the wrong turd?)
But yes, it's also true that it is time for us to let B&B bashing go. It's old school and these days every bit as timely as Fred Freiberger bashing.
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