Paramount working on DS9 HD?

[Tuskin38]

look like mud on a big TV. They don't look 'fine' and it does impact my enjoyment.

Maybe you need to adjust your TV settings.
Because I went back to back from TNG-R to an episode of Standard Def DS9 and still enjoyed it. On a 4K TV.

and was told that's silly.

Because it is.

Going from one to the other? Yeah...it's a bit rough.

I did just that. My eyes didn't fall out of my head or anything.

I knew a guy in high school (this was the late 2000s) that refused to watch anything that wasn't native widescreen and that also puzzled me.

No, they absolutely don't. Unless you're watching them on a cathode ray tube TV, they come off as a blurry mess. I am unsure of the thinking of people who insist that it looks good.

It didn't look any different to me from me watching the DVDs on a SD TV.
It wasn't abnormally blurry, there was no ghosting, the colour balancing and lighting was fine, I could see what I was meant to see.

Mind you as I said, I was streaming it too, this wasn't a DVD, it was Paramount+.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

^

@Hedo Rick

See, that’s what happened last time. I’m ‘silly’ for thinking as I do. So derision. I think it was in fact the same person last time.

It isn’t silly to want to enjoy something in high quality.

It’s why remasters exist. Old stuff tends to look like shit, so it gets remastered. This isn’t new and it isn’t new to want this.

It is silly to accept something which exists at a substandard level, because ‘it is what it is’ and then to go on pretending it looks 'fine' and people need to look at their TV settings because they have the problem.

It is what it is.

But it doesn’t have to be what it is. It could be a lot better and should be.

Adjust the fucking settings on my TV… Give me a break. I’m not an idiot. No amount of messing around with TV settings will transform a muddy SD image into a crisp HD one. Because right now, it is what it is. ie: Substandard in its day and borderline unwatchable on modern televisions these days.

 

[Tuskin38]

I was born in 1991, I grew up with 4:3 SD television, it doesn't bother me at all.

If DS9 releases in HD I'll get it, but I won't stop watching the SD version if it doesn't. It's my favourite Trek series.

 

[Dukhat]

I was born in 1973. I grew up with 13 inch B&W TVs. And first-run DS9 on a B&W TV looked better than watching reruns of it now on a 4K TV.

 

[Tuskin38]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I don't see a visual difference between watching it on Paramount+ via Roku stick, and watching it on DVD on an SD TV.

Cable re-runs look terrible, there's ghosting and colour issues, scenes being blown out, but I don't get that when watching it on on DVD or P+/Netflix.

 

[Dukhat]

I would like to come over to your house and watch an episode of DS9 on your TV.

 

[Jedman67]

Big IF here.
TNG was mastered on film, they used a digital process to composite all the elements, but all the original completed elements pre and post comp were available in the film archives.

DS9 was mastered entirely on tape - if you manage to dig up the original masters from the archives, and scan it at its highest native resolution you will certainly get a better quality transfer than the current DVD's. Nothing like the magnificent res of the TNG BR, but still better than what we have now.

To go pull out the film dailies, if they still exist, and match each CGI scene and re-render, if the digital assets and scenes still exist, and re-comp the shots would be hugely expensive. Even more so if they have to recreate space scenes from scratch - I don't know how to use lightwave, but I don't think it's as easy plug and play as people are suggesting here.

I don't see Paramount spending that kind of money on DS9. What I could see is a combination of AI upscaling, and occasional manual retouching where necessary, and maybe pull out all the stops for episodes like Emissary and Way of the Warrior.

 

[Tomalak]

TNG and DS9 were both shot on 35mm and edited on tape. The process to remaster them properly would be identical.

If they've not bothered to go back to the film rushes, they can only attempt to upscale the tape masters, which will have middling results at best.

 

[Lord Garth]

Film remasters are preferable. But I'm going to assume they'll just upscale the pre-existing episodes. I don't think DS9 or VOY will get the same treatment as TNG. I'd love to be wrong. So, if I am wrong, I'll be surprised in a good way.

BTW, I'm an Editor, Videographer, and overall A/V Technician. I can tell you that adjusting settings doesn't fix pixelation or soft images. You can try to mask it by adding contrast or trying to make the color look more vibrant, but it's never fooled my eyes.

 

[Tallguy]

Film remasters are preferable. But I'm going to assume they'll just upscale the pre-existing episodes. I don't think DS9 or VOY will get the same treatment as TNG. I'd love to be wrong. So, if I am wrong, I'll be surprised in a good way.

I wonder if it will be a mix. Re-scan the live action elements that they presumably have and use modern upscaling techniques for the standard def CG shots.

What did they do for What We Left Behind?

 

[trekker670]

I wonder if it will be a mix. Re-scan the live action elements that they presumably have and use modern upscaling techniques for the standard def CG shots.

What did they do for What We Left Behind?

As far as I'm aware, "What We Left Behind" used re-scanned live action elements and CG recreations for VFX shots. If I remember correctly, they used Adam 'Mojo' Lebowitz's upgraded/recreated VFX shots.

 

[Tosk]

I wonder if it will be a mix. Re-scan the live action elements that they presumably have and use modern upscaling techniques for the standard def CG shots.

What did they do for What We Left Behind?

Whilst I'll take whatever I can get, I hope they don't do that. That would mean cutting to SD footage every single time there's a VFX shot. Changelings, transporters, phasers, etc.

The Babylon 5 DVDs were awful (for multiple reasons) for this kind of thing, any time there was a dissolve the shots on either side were of clearly lesser quality than everything else.

But anyway, IF the original reporting is to be believed, I wouldn't assume it'll be an upscale. "Seeking VFX houses" certainly seems to imply to this viewer that it will be a proper rebuild.

I won't stop watching the SD version if it doesn't.

Same. But fingers crossed some day I won't have to any more. Let's see if they can get them onto Blu-ray before all my old DVD cases have completely fallen apart.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

But I'm going to assume they'll just upscale the pre-existing episodes. I don't think DS9 or VOY will get the same treatment as TNG.

I’d actually be satisfied with this.

 

[Jedman67]

TNG and DS9 were both shot on 35mm and edited on tape. The process to remaster them properly would be identical.

If they've not bothered to go back to the film rushes, they can only attempt to upscale the tape masters, which will have middling results at best.

TNG was entirely 35mm. They used digital "workflow" for editing and compositing, but all effects were printed on film, all edits were finished on film only the broadcast master was on tape.

DS9 (and presumably voyager) used a lot more digital elements and CGI and all the editing was done entirely on tape.

 

[Tosk]

but all effects were printed on film, all edits were finished on film only the broadcast master was on tape.

Almost all of the model work was indeed shot on film, but post for TNG was not done on film. That's why TNG had to be rebuilt from the ground up for HD, unlike other shows that were actually finished on film, like Columbo or Quantum Leap. TNG, DS9, and VOY all had the same basic workflow, with the exception of increased use of CGI of course. Minimal on TNG, increasingly moreso on DS9 and VOY as they went on.

 

[Jedman67]

Almost all of the model work was indeed shot on film, but post for TNG was not done on film. That's why TNG had to be rebuilt from the ground up for HD, unlike other shows that were actually finished on film, like Columbo or Quantum Leap. TNG, DS9, and VOY all had the same basic workflow, with the exception of increased use of CGI of course. Minimal on TNG, increasingly moreso on DS9 and VOY as they went on.

Yes, many of the visual effects needed to be redone, probably most. The final scenes needed to be rescanned but everything was already cut.

DS9 was shot on film and everything else was digital; to get TNG-R you'd have to go back to the dailies. TNG was much further along the process on film.

 

[trekker670]

to get TNG-R you'd have to go back to the dailies.

That's precisely what they had to do for TNG-R. They cover this a bit in some of the bonus features on the bluray releases, and TrekCore covered it extensively during the project. CGI sequences aside, DS9 and VOY would be the same effort and TNG-R.

It's been a while since I've watched this, but if I remember correctly, this video interview covers the process for remastering TNG-R in pretty good technical detail:

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[David cgc]

TNG was much further along the process on film.

That doesn't make sense, if TNG had conformed film cuts already, there wouldn't be the handful of episodes where they had to use the videotape masters as a source for one shot or another because the film couldn't be found.

 

[Relayer1]

I wonder if it will be a mix. Re-scan the live action elements that they presumably have and use modern upscaling techniques for the standard def CG shots.

Maybe they'll upscale and "tweak" as much as possible, and then go back and take a more ground up approach for the bits that look worst after upscaling.

Just going back to the original film is little help with shots including Odo morphing.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

For me, VOY and DS9 represent 14 Seasons of frustration. I love the shows. I'd like to enjoy them, but my enjoyment is forever held back by a feeling of... 'I wish they'd do something with this fucking picture...'.

DS9 is a show I haven't watched for 15 years. I'd love to revisit it and marathon the whole thing. You know what stops me? The idea that I'd barrel through all the muddy SD for three and a half seasons (or whatever) and then a remaster would be announced... and I'd have to go right back to the start so I could enjoy it as I want to, rather than as I have to right now.

It's as if the entire Pink Floyd back catalog had been remastered, except for Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here. Sure, I could listen to them and enjoy the songs, but the experience would forever be marred by the knowledge that something could and should have been done with them by now. Naturally I'd turn to other albums, or other bands.

Same with TV shows or movies.

Remaster VOY or DS9 and put it out on a streaming service and... I'm there dude. I'll sit through VOY and its ups and downs with joy and watch DS9 back to back. Take my money. Take my money for years for me to be able to marathon through all of that.

Sorry if I come off strongly.

This is really one of my Star Trek itches.

Things like the remastered footage in What We Left Behind only strengthen my resolve in my thinking. If DS9 can look as good as that, that's how I want to watch it.

As it stands, as it is right now, I have no interest. There's plenty of other stuff out there to watch that's much easier on the eye. In a world where 1970s episodes of Doctor Who are being upscaled for Blu-ray disc, I should not have to watch two shows from one of Paramount's flagship franchises in bleached out SD.

Decades ago, when most of us were kids, or when those who weren't kids could be described as young, a lot of work went into these shows. I want to see that and I want it in HD.