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"Mirror, Mirror" Thoughts

Is the only way women could be a Starfleet officer in the MU Universe was sleeping their way to the top?

I don't see any evidence of that.

I mean, I'm sure there is a lot of sleeping the way to the top for BOTH sexes. That, and assassination of superiors.

But it doesn't preclude Imperial personnel being recognized for their own merits (bravery in battle, for example) and promoted on that basis as well.

did MU Uhura get to be on the bridge because of her skills despite fending off Sulu's interest?

Could be, could be.

I mean, RU Uhura is clearly strong enough to hold her own in a fight; no reason her MU counterpart couldn't also be just as strong.
 
For sure. We only know that Moreau relied on being someone's woman.

I appreciated Erica's take on the episode. She argues that Uhura had it better in the Mirrorverse than the average woman did in the 60s.
My mother-in-law worked in a department store in the 60s and she talked about the "girls" who got to be the bosses secretaries by sleeping around. She and the other good girls never would. I'm thinking what woman had to do just to be a secretary. I was pretty shocked.
 
I believe Moreau's situation shows that in the MU women cannot rise as high in the ranks as men, and if you really want power, as Moreau does, then you get it by hitching your wagon to a powerful man who is on his way to the top. We don't see Moreau plotting her own assassinations or making her own plots beyond deciding which officer to hook up with.
 
like how they can teleport to the mirror universe and fizzle into the other universe's outfits so perfectly... and how they can teleport back to the real universe with ease (and back into their regular uniforms too), and right in the transporter room - one has to overlook rather a lot...

I commented on this a bit later in my post.

that the real Sulu will go too

From the TOS episode alone we don't know that would not happen. McCoy is afraid the Halkans will be destroyed even though by that point they assume it is another universe. McCoy is a caring person when it comes to these things, for sure, but I always felt that line could have also implied he felt it was possible that the death of the Halkan race in that universe would cause it in his own.

"in universe"

We don't really need an in-universe explanation for the clothing because it satisfies a dramatic one: on a very personal level, these characters have been forced into someone else's role, and the uniforms solidify that.

Despite the show, and books, not going in this direction, it would possibly have been interesting if meeting your mirror counterpart was not possible, and that only switching was possible. That would force storytelling about these two universes from diverging from the original idea as much as it may have. There is nothing in the TOS episode that introduces the mirror universe that suggests that you can simply and easily move between the two,or that the death of a character in one universe would not affect both. It would be interesting to know what the original writer meant to be the case on these fronts.

This is a TV show that first aired between 53 and 56 years ago or so on a very tight budget for most of its run, and yet it doesn't really take massive amounts of candlepower to come up with plausible and satisfying explanations to cover real world production problems and workarounds. That's a testament to the creativity and power of Star Trek.

That is a great way of explaining the appeal of Star Trek that many TV features about the show failed to say outright.
 
Despite the show, and books, not going in this direction, it would possibly have been interesting if meeting your mirror counterpart was not possible, and that only switching was possible.
That’s how I thought it worked from the original episode. I suppose you could then argue that only the consciousnesses switch, which gets you around some of the mentioned issues like uniforms, etc.

It’s sort of two bad they didn’t do an Animated episode to see where they would have taken it back then. Actually, now that I think about it, I’m sort of surprised there wasn’t one, since “Mirror” was very popular and it had a fair amount of sequel potential.
 
It’s sort of two bad they didn’t do an Animated episode to see where they would have taken it back then. Actually, now that I think about it, I’m sort of surprised there wasn’t one, since “Mirror” was very popular and it had a fair amount of sequel potential.
It might have been deemed too violent and/or sexy for Saturday morning TV.
 
It’s sort of two bad they didn’t do an Animated episode to see where they would have taken it back then.
In a way, they did. "Yesteryear."

"Mirror, Mirror" is essentially an alternate history story. "Yesteryear" is a "sequel" to "The City On The Edge of Forever." Both of those stories invoke paradoxes, while "Mirror, Mirror" is multiverse. Still, I see all of them as fantasy with very flimsy logic. With such a radically different back history, how could a Kirk and all the other characters converge on an MU Enterprise to make the story work?
 
In a way, they did. "Yesteryear."

"Mirror, Mirror" is essentially an alternate history story. "Yesteryear" is a "sequel" to "The City On The Edge of Forever." Both of those stories invoke paradoxes, while "Mirror, Mirror" is multiverse. Still, I see all of them as fantasy with very flimsy logic. With such a radically different back history, how could a Kirk and all the other characters converge on an MU Enterprise to make the story work?

The best Star Trek episodes and movies sometimes catch that figurative "lightning in a bottle." The stories may not totally work logically and the plot holes are many, yet put together, the end result is magical. You put aside the questions and just enjoy the experience.

This is one of those. "The Wrath of Khan" is another.
 
I remember "street" interviews with movie-goers coming out of The Wrath of Khan. This one guy told the camera, "He'll be back in Star Trek 9, only he'll be an Evil Spock, and..." Wipe the drool off your chin, buddy!

(For me, the reason TWOK worked so well is because it finally gave closure to Spock's character. What he did was both logical and compassionate. The franchise had been brought to a point ripe for the introduction of a Next Generation, but they had to invoke some handwavium to bring Spock back. Fans of the Space Battleship Yamato series will see a similar story in the 2010 live-action movie. Kodai takes the "Kobayashi Maru" test repeatedly throughout the movie, ultimately realizing that "winning" comes in various forms.)
 
I see all of them as fantasy

This is where the question of what sci-fi is comes into play.

Stepping away from that for a moment, the issue is that if we said, "Kirk has still become a captain in this universe, but on a totally different ship with a totally different crew," or "Kirk is a restaurant owner in this universe," we would have a very different story, though not necessarily better or worse, just very different. The idea of a very similar, other universe has to be accepted to tell the story the writer apparently wanted to tell.

So is it sci-fi or fantasy and does it matter? In my opinion: Firstly, if a person likes the story, it may not matter to that person; secondly, in my view, we can look at it like Joe Jennings said in an interview about ST:II. He said that in sci-fi you need to create your own rules and be honest to those rules. Does "Mirror, Mirror," do that? If so, it is sci-fi to me. In my mind it does, since the "rules" are that a storm and a transporter accident got them here, and that if they survive they have a short time to get back to their home, and in the meanwhile they see similar, but evil, versions of their friends.
 
The Star Trek Continues followup was interesting.

It definitely was, and seeing how the Mirror Universe continued on its own after the events of the episode was not only fascinating, it also supported my (not particularly well-developed) idea that the two universes would now diverge because of the inflection point of the unexpected exchange of four of its members for four of another universe.

In a way, they did. "Yesteryear."

"Mirror, Mirror" is essentially an alternate history story. "Yesteryear" is a "sequel" to "The City On The Edge of Forever." Both of those stories invoke paradoxes, while "Mirror, Mirror" is multiverse. Still, I see all of them as fantasy with very flimsy logic. With such a radically different back history, how could a Kirk and all the other characters converge on an MU Enterprise to make the story work?

Enh, that just doesn't really bother me that much. There are obviously differences in the universes, but basically you're asking how Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, Chekov and Kyle could both be on the Mirror Enterprise and "our" Enterprise despite the Mirror Universe's radically different conditions. (I believe those are the only characters in common to both universes that we encounter until the end of the episode when Moreau appears on our Enterprise. I mean, of course they used some of the same extras, but they could have had different names and such, a phenomenon that happened often enough in "our" universe throughout the series' run, and whether they intended it or not, they seem to have avoided using the most familiar or most obvious S2 extras like Leslie, Hadley, Brent, etc.)

I guess I just don't find it that hard to believe that those eight characters could all be in roughly the same positions - and not exact positions, given Sulu's job switch - on the Mirror Enterprise. I'm reminded of Spock's eddies and currents in time theory from "City on the Edge of Forever." Perhaps the two universes exerted a pull on one another that caused those characters to be drawn to one another in both. And we see from Moreau's introduction on "our" Enterprise at the end of the episode that she obviously didn't follow the same path as her counterpart.

The best Star Trek episodes and movies sometimes catch that figurative "lightning in a bottle." The stories may not totally work logically and the plot holes are many, yet put together, the end result is magical. You put aside the questions and just enjoy the experience.

This is one of those. "The Wrath of Khan" is another.

My go-to example for that is "Space Seed," as I've said many times in many threads. It has massive, massive, galaxy-sized plot holes, most of them centering on the familiar defects in shipboard security, but it is a wonderful episode nonetheless, and worked well enough to serve as Meyer and Bennett's selection as the basis for Star Trek II.
 
We don't see Moreau plotting her own assassinations or making her own plots beyond deciding which officer to hook up with.
We literally see her kill three of Sulu's henchmen with the Tantalus Field Device towards the end of the episode. She's also the one who suggests that Kirk use it to kill Spock. (Remember that Kirk had no idea the device existed until Marlena unveils it in his quarters.)
"Mirror, Mirror" is essentially an alternate history story.
>sigh< No, it's not. It's a parallel universe story. Why do so many people insist on conflating the two?
 
We literally see her kill three of Sulu's henchmen with the Tantalus Field Device towards the end of the episode. She's also the one who suggests that Kirk use it to kill Spock. (Remember that Kirk had no idea the device existed until Marlena unveils it in his quarters.)
That's Marlena helping Kirk with HIS plans, not Marlena enacting HER plans. She still needed Kirk is the point.
 
That's Marlena helping Kirk with HIS plans, not Marlena enacting HER plans. She still needed Kirk is the point.
She didn't consult Kirk at all before killing Sulu's henchmen. And then she left Sulu alive to see how Kirk and company would fare against him. If that's not her executing her own plan, what is?

Suggesting that they monitor/possibly kill Spock with the Tantalus Field Device... Yeah, you could put that into the category of Lady Macbeth style manipulation, I suppose. But she's still the motivating force there, was my point.
 
The Discovery Mirror episodes were fine, but I wouldn't mind if those were the final farewells to that parallel universe. Picard S2 did good job with a sinister alternate world that wasn't so over the top.
 
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