MCU rewatch

[Grendelsbayne]

And Bruce... I think it's pretty strange that no one has a problem with the fact that he got brainwashed into hulking out and destroying parts of a city (and killing however many people). I think that fact (and of course Tony's "vision") got sidelined in all the coolness that Wanda supposedly represents.

About Wanda, let's be real: Wanda willingly joined Hydra and let them experiment on herself... why doesn't Steve ever think of Bucky in that situation (and given that Bucky's mentionned in the movie obliquely, that question isn't far-fetched)? What would Bucky think about a willing Hydra-supporter, who just skips sides because Ultron plans to kill her too, and Steve working side by side with her? I'd not be amused (and I'd have loved to see that come to light at some point between Civil War and Infinity War). So, I think welcoming her to the Avengers without a real discussion and without any apologies on her part is ridiculous - and Tony on the other hand can grovel all the time (and I'll grant you when he messes up he messes up big, but he's assaulted, yelled at, lied to - and she just has to bat her eyelashes and talk about Stark-bombs, and everything's forgiven)... Sorry, but that's one reason I don't think she's well portrayed or introduced. She's just "cool", nothing more. (And I realize that she's more background in the comics but since I don't know those, I can only go by what I've seen in the movies.)

I agree it's strange that South Africa was never mentioned in Civil War (I don't think it matters to Age of Ultron because there's not enough time to go into it there). Of course, it's equally strange that Washington and New York were mentioned in a negative light towards the Avengers. That first Thunderbolt Ross scene is just a bit too built on an agenda with not enough reality.

But in regards to Wanda, she certainly did not 'just switch sides because Ultron was going to kill her too'. She switched sides because Ultron was going to kill everyone and she only signed up to kill the Avengers. And I very much like the fact that Cap has real understanding for her point of view as someone whose family was killed by a blatantly irresponsible military-industrial complex that didn't give a shit because she was from a little, unimportant country. It makes perfect sense for her to consider herself at war with the people responsible for Sokovia's troubles and it makes perfect sense for her to be willing to undergo Hydra experiments, especially in light of the fact that she probably never heard of Hydra before anyway, It's certainly fair to say she went too far in that regard and has a lot to apologize for, (which I assume she did somewhere between AoU and CW) but I think welcoming her to the Avengers is really the right thing to do, since she does actually realize that what she's doing is wrong and switch sides (entirely on her own).

I also really don't get the complaint about Tony being 'assaulted, yelled at and lied to' and having to 'grovel all the time'. Steve lied about Bucky to protect Bucky. It had nothing to do with anything Tony had or hadn't done, so is totally irrelevant to the Wanda comparison. They yelled at each other a lot because they both tried to be the leader of the team and had very different ideas about what the leader should do, which also has nothing to do with the Wanda comparison. The only assault I can think of was instigated by Tony, not anyone else, so that certainly isn't relevant. And where exactly did Tony grovel at all? I think he groveled some to Pepper at some point, but that was all about his personal life. He doesn't grovel in Civil, Infinity War or Endgame that I recall.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I agree it's strange that South Africa was never mentioned in Civil War (I don't think it matters to Age of Ultron because there's not enough time to go into it there). Of course, it's equally strange that Washington and New York were mentioned in a negative light towards the Avengers. That first Thunderbolt Ross scene is just a bit too built on an agenda with not enough reality.

.

I suppose it's possible that no one was killed in Johannesburg?

One thing that I thought of the very first time I watched that scene with Ross in Civil War was, "how convenient that he doesn't bring up Harlem". In the alternate reality where Banner was sitting at the table, I can totally picture him confronting Ross about Harlem and Blonsky and asking, "and whose fault was that fiasco, Mister Secretary?"

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I suppose it's possible that no one was killed in Johannesburg?

One thing that I thought of the very first time I watched that scene with Ross in Civil War was, "how convenient that he doesn't bring up Harlem". In the alternate reality where Banner was sitting at the table, I can totally picture him confronting Ross about Harlem and Blonsky and asking, "and whose fault was that fiasco, Mister Secretary?"

I think the way it's shot that you're definitely supposed to believe no one was killed there. Of course, that's entirely down to Tony's intervention. I think it's also possible Wanda might have expected hulk to just stay at the shipyard and tear the avengers to pieces, not run into the city - which doesn't absolve her of responsibility but would speak to intent.

I do wish we'd gotten at least one more factually based response against Thunderbolt Ross. Pointing out that the Avengers didn't cause New York or Washington, the government did (the same government that's now going to 'reign in' the avengers) and it's only thanks to the avengers that the government was unsuccessful in its attempt to literally nuke manhattan to stop the chitauri. Having Banner there to bring up Harlem would've been delicious, but obviously hulk's way too big of an imbalancing element for that movie, so that could never be. And I suppose it makes sense in the end that a lot of the Avengers are too surprised by everything (and in some cases still in shock over Lagos) to do it, and Cap is just too key into the philosophical objections to worry about the other ones.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Really have to get my hands on Agents of SHIELD... hm... oh... I see it's included in amazon prime... OMG, I see several bingeing sessions in my near future.

All I have to say in this regard is, be patient with the first season. In retrospect, it's very clear what kind of show the producers wanted it to be, but they had to tread water until the Winter Soldier was released to truly realize their vision for the show.

That said, there are only maybe two real clunkers in the first 12 episodes. The show just never achieves any real heights until the back half of the season. Starting with episode 13, TRACKS (with a Stan Lee cameo!), they start building up to the Winter Soldier, and with the first Winter Soldier crossover episode, the appropriately titled "The End of the Beginning", the show takes off and never looks back.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Ant -Man-- Phase two closes out with director Peyton Reed's Ant-Man, which was a lighter story with smaller stakes than standard MCU fare. A fun little heist movie with superpowers with fun characters. Paul Rudd is likeable and sympathetic as Scott Lang, despite his being a convicted felon. His desire to simply be able to spend time with his daughter is both relatable and endearing. I love Luis and think that the character should be imported to the comicsand other MCU works. Another prime example of a Marvel movie with weak villains, the motivation of Corey Stoll's Yellowjacket never really amounted to much more than an unstable personality with abandonment issues. The little girl who played Cassie was adorable and entirely convincing, despite her young age. The ties to the larger MCU were obvious but not intrusive. Lang's battle with Sam Wilson was a fun scene providing connective tissue to the upcoming Civil War, as well as serving the needs of the story. And anytime they want to bring in Hayley Atwell is fine by me. A fun little movie, but probably mid-level range as far as MCU content goes. I'm glad that we got a sequel, but will be content if it never becomes a trilogy.

 

[kitik]

The sacrifice of Quicksilver was disappointing, but perhaps dramatically necessary to establish the stakes involved with being a superhero.

I have to wonder if they also ditched him due to overpowered reasons. Where's the drama in sending someone on a mission if Quicksilver can already be back home safely before I finish typing this sentence? I mean we know for a fact they did that in Endgame with Captain Marvel, and it wouldn't surprise me if they were worried about how to use Quicksilver going forward. I think even the X-Men had trouble with properly using Quicksilver.

I'm glad that we got a sequel, but will be content if it never becomes a trilogy.

The way they left things at the end of Ant-Man and the Wasp, I really would like to see a third one. For one, I like all the characters. The dynamic between Scott and Hank is great. And I'd love to get more Ghost and Goliath and Luis too. They clearly had more story they intended to tell at the end of the second one, and I'd like to see where it goes.

 

[Skywalker]

The MCU's Quicksilver didn't seem to be as absurdly fast as the X-Men's Quicksilver was, and there were a couple of times where he had to pause to catch his breath. So I don't think he'd have been that much of an issue.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Ant -Man-- Phase two closes out with director Peyton Reed's Ant-Man, which was a lighter story with smaller stakes than standard MCU fare. A fun little heist movie with superpowers with fun characters. Paul Rudd is likeable and sympathetic as Scott Lang, despite his being a convicted felon. His desire to simply be able to spend time with his daughter is both relatable and endearing. I love Luis and think that the character should be imported to the comicsand other MCU works. Another prime example of a Marvel movie with weak villains, the motivation of Corey Stoll's Yellowjacket never really amounted to much more than an unstable personality with abandonment issues. The little girl who played Cassie was adorable and entirely convincing, despite her young age. The ties to the larger MCU were obvious but not intrusive. Lang's battle with Sam Wilson was a fun scene providing connective tissue to the upcoming Civil War, as well as serving the needs of the story. And anytime they want to bring in Hayley Atwell is fine by me. A fun little movie, but probably mid-level range as far as MCU content goes. I'm glad that we got a sequel, but will be content if it never becomes a trilogy.

I agree with all of this, except for no driving need for a second sequel. Learning more about the quantum realm and how Janet survived down there for so many years (while still aging the same as the regular universe as oppose to what happened to Scott) is begging for a sequel, especially since that's exactly what Peyton Reed said would happen in a potential third film. I would love, love to watch an entire film exploring the quantum realm. It would be an entirely different kind of MCU film and yet would fit in with the current direction Phase 4 and beyond appears to be heading in.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I agree with all of this, except for no driving need for a second sequel. Learning more about the quantum realm and how Janet survived down there for so many years (while still aging the same as the regular universe as oppose to what happened to Scott) is begging for a sequel, especially since that's exactly what Peyton Reed said would happen in a potential third film. I would love, love to watch an entire film exploring the quantum realm. It would be an entirely different kind of MCU film and yet would fit in with the current direction Phase 4 and beyond appears to be heading in.

My comments were less about not wanting to see a third movie and more addressing the fact that we probably aren't going to get a third movie, which I should have made clear in my original post. The sequel didn't exactly burn up the box office and no sequel was announced at d23. I also take into account the fact that Paul Rudd has said that Marvel has not approached him about a third movie.

As for Peyton Reed and the quantum realm, my personal suspicions (which is totally unsubstantiated by any announced fact) is that he will indeed get to continue exploring the quantum realm, and that he will be doing it with... The Fantastic Four, a property that he has shown interest in more than once. Exploration of the quantum realm would be a perfect hook for the Fantastic Four considering that they are supposed to be explorers and adventurers first and foremost, rather than superheroes.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

My comments were less about not wanting to see a third movie and more addressing the fact that we probably aren't going to get a third movie, which I should have made clear in my original post. The sequel didn't exactly burn up the box office and no sequel was announced at d23. I also take into account the fact that Paul Rudd has said that Marvel has not approached him about a third movie.

As for Peyton Reed and the quantum realm, my personal suspicions (which is totally unsubstantiated by any announced fact) is that he will indeed get to continue exploring the quantum realm, and that he will be doing it with... The Fantastic Four, a property that he has shown interest in more than once. Exploration of the quantum realm would be a perfect hook for the Fantastic Four considering that they are supposed to be explorers and adventurers first and foremost, rather than superheroes.

It made about the same as Thor 2. Which isn't good, but obviously isn't automatically fatal since we're getting Thor 4 in two years. And there's absolutely no reason they would've announced it already since they also haven't announced Black Panther 2 and Captain Marvel 2 yet, and Black Panther came out much earlier than Ant-man 2. Heck Dr. Strange will have waited 5 years for a sequel. Whether Rudd should've had conversation already or not is really the only concern here, but I find it rather inconclusive.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

My comments were less about not wanting to see a third movie and more addressing the fact that we probably aren't going to get a third movie, which I should have made clear in my original post. The sequel didn't exactly burn up the box office and no sequel was announced at d23. I also take into account the fact that Paul Rudd has said that Marvel has not approached him about a third movie.

Fair enough. I'm still holding onto hope that we'll get a third film, if only so Michelle Pfeiffer get more to do as Janet. As for the quantum realm...

As for Peyton Reed and the quantum realm, my personal suspicions (which is totally unsubstantiated by any announced fact) is that he will indeed get to continue exploring the quantum realm, and that he will be doing it with... The Fantastic Four, a property that he has shown interest in more than once. Exploration of the quantum realm would be a perfect hook for the Fantastic Four considering that they are supposed to be explorers and adventurers first and foremost, rather than superheroes.

That's an excellent idea and a great way to transit to the Fantastic Four while getting the chance to explore the quantum realm. That would be a good way to continue forward with the Pyms, although I would hate for them to be second fiddle to the Richards. In an ideal world, I would like to see one more Ant-Man film and then the Pyms teaming up with the Richards in their first sequel.

It made about the same as Thor 2. Which isn't good, but obviously isn't automatically fatal since we're getting Thor 4 in two years. And there's absolutely no reason they would've announced it already since they also haven't announced Black Panther 2 and Captain Marvel 2 yet, and Black Panther came out much earlier than Ant-man 2. Heck Dr. Strange will have waited 5 years for a sequel. Whether Rudd should've had conversation already or not is really the only concern here, but I find it rather inconclusive.

That's why I'm hanging onto hope that we'll get that second sequel.

 

[Turtletrekker]

@grendelsbayne -- release date for Black Panther 2 is May 6th 2022. And we don't have a release date for Captain Marvel 2, but it is confirmed to be happening. We've had no such confirmation about Ant-Man.

Ant Man 2 may have done as much as The Dark World, but that was a different era for Marvel. Of the last four MCU movies released, Ant-Man and the Wasp is the only one that didn't break a billion dollars. Disney might not be interested in Dark World level money from the MCU moving forward.

 

[Gaith]

Count me as another who'd very much like an Ant-Man and the Wasp 2, certainly more so than a Captain Marvel 2, but wouldn't be heartbroken if we didn't get one. Those heroes' major storylines have been resolved, though I hope Pfeiffer at least appears in The Multiverse of Madness.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

@grendelsbayne -- release date for Black Panther 2 is May 6th 2022. And we don't have a release date for Captain Marvel 2, but it is confirmed to be happening. We've had no such confirmation about Ant-Man.

Ant Man 2 may have done as much as The Dark World, but that was a different era for Marvel. Of the last four MCU movies released, Ant-Man and the Wasp is the only one that didn't break a billion dollars. Disney might not be interested in Dark World level money from the MCU moving forward.

Right, I forgot they circled back to BP2 at the second con announcements. But the idea that Antman definitely won't happen because they haven't announced it yet still holds no water unless you seriously think they've already announced everything they're going to release up through 2023/2024, which they obviously haven't. They announced what's coming soon because it's coming soon and they tossed in barebones shout-outs for Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Fantastic Four and X-men because they're so heavily anticipated that even mentioning their names gets people excited, then tossed in Blade for the surprise factor. There will be other projects in the next five years that haven't been mentioned yet, and there's no reason why Ant-man is a project that would necessarily be mentioned four or five years before its release.

As for the money, you're counting one of the biggest movies in the history of cinema in those last four MCU movies, and the other two were uniquely positioned to tap into massive untapped markets. It would be utterly ridiculous for anyone to only greenlight movies which they thought capable of matching those films financially. And the last non-Avengers film which came out just before those 4 (Ragnarok) did not make a billion and is still getting a sequel. And ditto the one before that (Homecoming) and the one before that (Guardians 2). And the one before that (Dr. Strange) arrives right back at 'Dark world' money levels but is still getting a sequel. They've also greenlit new properties that seem unlikely to reach 1 billion on their first film (Eternals definitely not; arguably not Black Widow; possibly but not definitely Shang-Chi, depending on how successful it is in China and whether the Asian American community embraces it like African Americans embraced Black Panther). And at the end of the day, they're looking at a highly probable billion gross for Thor 4 specifically because they chose not to cut the franchise off at the knees when it made Dark World money but to instead do something unexpected and different with it to draw more people in.

 

[Gaith]

I think at this point, the biggest obstacle to an Ant-Man and the Wasp 2 is the sheer amount of projects Feige and the Marvel Studios team have on their plates; they can't keep endlessly extending their franchises and Disney+ shows without stretching oversight so thin without risking dips in quality. And Ragnarok was necessary to the larger arc of the MCU by taking Odin and Asgard off the field, whereas any further jaunts to the Quantum Realm seem very much optional from a big-picture perspective.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I agree, the sheer number of projects now is the biggest threat to the idea of an Ant-man 3. But if this Young Avengers stuff is actually happening, it would seem that some form of new story with Ant-man really is narratively necessary to set up Stature for that project (which, really, is what a hypothetical AM3 should be about anyway - the Quantum Realm is not the important part of the franchise, Scott's relationship with Cassie is). If they have too many better prospects for movies, then maybe it turns into a Stature D+ show co-starring Rudd, but that story really needs to happen somewhere in order for Cassie's inclusion in this Young Avengers thing to work. (All of which of course is assuming that the Young Avengers headlines are accurate.)

 

[JD]

When it comes to The Quantum Realm, I'm mainly just curious if there are any civilizations there like in the comics. Wasn't there a line or something in Ant-Man and the Wasp that hinted there might be?

 

[Turtletrekker]

When it comes to The Quantum Realm, I'm mainly just curious if there are any civilizations there like in the comics. Wasn't there a line or something in Ant-Man and the Wasp that hinted there might be?

You can see a quantum realm city briefly 3 minutes 7 seconds. It looks like a city under a glass bubble.

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[JD]

Cool, I never noticed that before. So I guess that question is answered then.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Cool, I never noticed that before. So I guess that question is answered then.

There was also this deleted scene that gave us more detail about the inhabitants of the quantum realm, but alas, deleted scenes are not canon.

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