Game Of Thrones Season 5 TV Only Discussion (Spoilers)

[137th Gebirg]

Agree with all of these...

Random thoughts about last night's episode:

-What was the point of turning Arya away the first time? It seemed for a second like he was administering the Fight Club test, which she then would have failed. Then randomly a day later he comes and gathers her. Was he just trying to see if she had the murderous temperament or something?

I thought the exact same thing. This all felt like the initiate standing on the front doorstep waiting to be let in. It also doesn't help that neither Fight Club nor the House of Black & White view their members as "beautiful and unique snowflakes".

-Denerys has started making the same kinds of mistakes Robb Stark did leading up to his demise. I somehow don't see Mereen ending up well for her, or maybe this is leading to a story about Tyrion teaching her politics.

That would be my guess as well. For all her bluster as "Mother of Dragons", she still is technically a teenage girl who is just now starting to grasp the complexities of ruling a city the size of Mereen. She's really going to have to clean up her act if she plans to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Selmy's admonishment to her regarding her father was quite poignant and relevant to her current predicament. The hissing from the crowd that once revered her as "Mysa" proved him right and her horribly wrong. That's a misstep that she may not recover from.

-Speaking of which I'm not buying Varys' sudden flourish of idealism. It seems to contradict his previously established personality.

Spoiler: Varys

That's because Varys was never supposed to go with Tyrion to Mereen. This is something new that the show-runners have put into the TV version which, you're right, doesn't make as much sense. Varys is a Targaryen loyalist and he does want to bring back the Old Order (although not originally through Danny), but not quite as sunshine and lollipops as he now appears to be. The books had him remain in the shadows in King's Landing after he got Tyrion on the ship to Pentos until he made several massive power plays at the end of Dance With Dragons - none of which I see happening now that he's moving eastward a cross Essos at this point.

 

[137th Gebirg]

-No mention of Brandon yet. Makes me wonder if they're keeping him out of the spotlight for a while so he can suddenly make impact later in the season.

Spoiler: Bran

IIRC, the actor who plays Bran hasn't been in any of the casting calls for this season. Several of the show runners have commented in the past few months how his story is on hold until at least next season at the earliest. He's basically come close to the end of his written plot at present.

-Brien has started acting like a reckless idiot again.

Spoiler: Brienne

This is another ham-fisted change by the show runners. Brienne's story is largely unwritten and should never be acting like this.

-Big surprise to see Siddig show up, but his head seems to already be on a chopping block as pretty much the only person in Dorne who doesn't want to hurt Myrcella.

Not really surprising - his involvement as Doran Martell has been announced since last year, IIRC.

-Did anybody feel any suspense at all at the Lord Commander election? Did it really need to end up in a tiebreaker the way it did? It felt like a forced way to create tension that nobody would buy anyway.

Agreed - it was an extremely abbreviated scene that belied the machinations and planning that should have occurred behind the scenes. It left the final event quite empty.

The show seems to be adopting more recognizable tropes than in previous seasons.

Mostly because we're moving into uncharted territory, into areas of the story that haven't been written yet. The show-runners are taking greater liberties with the story, abbreviating known sections and inventing unknown ones. The disparity of these differences is more evident this season than any previous one. Not sure I'm liking it yet.

I can't lay all the blame at their feet, though. The source material they're working with is notoriously weak compared to the earlier works in the series. Feast for Crows and Dance With Dragons were more meandering travelogues than plot-driven arcs. We're in the midst of that prose wasteland now and nobody really knows what's on the other side.

 

[Venardhi]

I can't lay all the blame at their feet, though. The source material they're working with is notoriously weak compared to the earlier works in the series. Feast for Crows and Dance With Dragons were more meandering travelogues than plot-driven arcs. We're in the midst of that prose wasteland now and nobody really knows what's on the other side.

Spoiler: Commentary on books and plotting, not very spoilery.

Say what you will about the relatively weak plotting in the most recent books, but it looks like they've gone ahead and thrown out the good with the bad. Most of the time when they went "off script" in previous seasons it was to the detriment of the end product. Now that they've freed themselves from the shackles of building to the 3rd season climax, they're going to be depending on that original material.

It is a severe understatement to say I am dubious of their ability to make it as compelling as the audience has come to expect.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

You also can't blame them for going more off script this season because they're about to run out of source material. But it'd be nice if they had a head writer who was capable of thinking more the way GRRM does.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

There's also some clear parallels between Denerys' execution of the former slave and Robb Stark's execution of Lord Carstark. I wonder if that was intentional to forbode her downfall if she doesn't gain the benefit of Tyrion's political skill.

 

[Venardhi]

One of the stronger episodes I can recall in a while, but Arya's storyline continues to be handled with the subtlety of a chainsaw.

Would have also been nice to see Jon echo his father's words from the pilot, since Slynt was effectively deserting. His stern silence read more like anger than duty.

Westeros has gotten much smaller lately. Littlefinger and Sansa have gone from the Vale to Winterfell in what appears to be a few days ride.

 

[chrisspringob]

Littlefinger's convincing of Sansa to go ahead with the engagement seemed weird. He says "Avenge them", suggesting that the plan is to double cross the Boltons in some way. But Sansa doesn't demand to know what his plan is. He says that they'll turn around and go back to the Vale if that's what she wants to do, and she doesn't use that leverage to demand to know just what exactly he's planning.

Of course, this isn't an unusual contrivance for television. The show doesn't want us to know what Littlefinger's plan is yet, because it's more suspenseful if it's kept a secret from the audience. Even though, if the characters acted logically, we'd have a scene in which our point-of-view character would at least ask him what the plan is.

Also, this is the second episode in a row that Brienne has mentioned that the "shadow" that killed Renly has "the face of Stannis Baratheon". Gee, do you think they're foreshadowing some kind of upcoming confrontation between Brienne and Stannis?

 

[137th Gebirg]

I suspect that Littlefinger's plan is to incite the Lannisters to attack Roose Bolton and the North once Cersei discovers that Sansa is alive. She'll go apoplectic with rage and few people may be able to stop it. Which is why Bolton interrogated Littlefinger about his motivations in that one scene. Sansa's appearance there jeopardizes their interests in that region.

Were those women looking sullenly at Sansa when she arrived "Ramsy's Girls" or someone else? I couldn't figure out why they were staring daggers at her otherwise.

Also - bad editing to some degree - were they at Moat Cailin or Winterfell by the time they arrived at their destination? It didn't seem abundantly clear to me, as both locations were featured in the intro, and both locations seemed to be shown under some kind of rebuilding.

 

[DarthTom]

Also - bad editing to some degree - were they at Moat Cailin or Winterfell by the time they arrived at their destination? It didn't seem abundantly clear to me, as both locations were featured in the intro, and both locations seemed to be shown under some kind of rebuilding.

Speaking of editing, I'm fairly certain that Jorvah and Tyrion in the boat you could see office buildings in the distance.

 

[chrisspringob]

Were those women looking sullenly at Sansa when she arrived "Ramsy's Girls" or someone else? I couldn't figure out why they were staring daggers at her otherwise.

The one that they focused on in particular is the same young woman who Ramsay was in bed with in the episode last year when Yara attacked the Dreadfort.

Also - bad editing to some degree - were they at Moat Cailin or Winterfell by the time they arrived at their destination? It didn't seem abundantly clear to me, as both locations were featured in the intro, and both locations seemed to be shown under some kind of rebuilding.

Moat Cailin is where they stopped for a while, where Littlefinger revealed the engagement to Sansa. That's also where we then saw Brienne and Pod watching from a distance, with Brienne saying that they'd go around the moat, and it doesn't matter that they'd lose sight of Littlefinger's party, because she'd already figured out where they were going. It's in a subsequent scene that Littlefinger and Sansa arrive in Winterfell.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Man, Sansa has the worst luck with men. First it was Joffrey. Then, her best luck was with Loras, who wouldn't have shared her affections. Then it was Tyrion, who she had no interest in. Then Robin. And now Ramsay!? Jesus, can't she at least get something nice for once?

Also, I have this terrible feeling that Jon Snow and/or Stannis will come to attack Winterfell, and somehow Sansa will end up dying during that. Like Ramsay will threaten her or something. I don't know if I trust his statement about never harming her. Maybe he'd get Reek to do it. Definitely something is going to happen there between those three (if not from Ramsay's other women).

 

[Captaindemotion]

I've read the books but I'll try to keep any discussion here spoiler free, which won't be hard as this Sansa/Ramsay storyline is totally original to the series.

What occurs to me is that Sansa (a) doesn't know that Theon is in Winterfell and that (b) she doesn't know her brothers are alive. So I'm wondering if or when she'll encounter the Artist now Known as Reek. My bet is that she will. If so, will he tell her the truth about Bran and Rickon. If he does, what will she do in response? And if she tells Littlefinger, how, if at all, will this factor into his machinations?

The girl who was giving Sansa daggers is the one who hunted the other girl with the dogs at the start of S4, because she made her jealous when Ramsay paid attention to her, or something like that. This doesn't bode well for Sansa.

If or when Jon hears that Sansa is at Winterfell, will this change his refusal of Stannis' offer? Could this be something that will compel him to join with Stannis and attack Winterfell?

And what of the fact that, as the servant said to Sansa, the North still remembers? Allied to Mormont's niece's refusal to aid Stannis, are there those planning a restoration of House Stark or are these people just too stubborn to yield to either Stannis or the Boltons?

 

[chrisspringob]

What occurs to me is that Sansa (a) doesn't know that Theon is in Winterfell and that (b) she doesn't know her brothers are alive. So I'm wondering if or when she'll encounter the Artist now Known as Reek. My bet is that she will. If so, will he tell her the truth about Bran and Rickon. If he does, what will she do in response? And if she tells Littlefinger, how, if at all, will this factor into his machinations?

The girl who was giving Sansa daggers is the one who hunted the other girl with the dogs at the start of S4, because she made her jealous when Ramsay paid attention to her, or something like that. This doesn't bode well for Sansa.

If or when Jon hears that Sansa is at Winterfell, will this change his refusal of Stannis' offer? Could this be something that will compel him to join with Stannis and attack Winterfell?

And what of the fact that, as the servant said to Sansa, the North still remembers? Allied to Mormont's niece's refusal to aid Stannis, are there those planning a restoration of House Stark or are these people just too stubborn to yield to either Stannis or the Boltons?

Those are all great questions. I was also wondering exactly how Sansa is going to find out about how awful Ramsay is. Will it be by seeing what he did to Theon? Or maybe Theon/Reek will be faced with the moral dilemma of whether he gives her a warning about Ramsay, which he might want to do deep down, but which his "training" from Ramsay will prevent him from doing.

Also can't wait to see how Cersei reacts once word trickles down the continent (which I assume it will, since they don't seem to be hiding the fact that she's Sansa anymore). Or for that matter, what about Jaime? He sent Brienne on a mission specifically to find Sansa and protect her from the crown. If the crown, under Cersei, now goes after Sansa, will Jaime try to intervene? (Granted, he's busy on his trip to Dorne at the moment, but I don't know what the timing of all this is going to be.)

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Man, the show's writers HATE Sansa, engaging her to every sadist in the seven kingdoms. Good thing Locke is dead or else she'd probably get engaged to him too. It shouldn't take her that long to figure out how bad Ramsay is. Even if she doesn't encounter Theon, Ramsay is not exactly a paragon of impulse control.

I am wondering here exactly what Littlefinger's angle is. Obviously his goal is to make himself lord of Winterfell, but I'm not sure how Sansa marrying Ramsay would achieve him that. Maybe he's calculated some order of marriages and deaths that would transfer the Stark legacy to his control.

What I like about Arya's story is the way she obviously has no intention of ceasing to be Arya Stark and is trying to tell them all what they want to hear to teach her their assassin powers.

When Jora said "The Queen", I assume she was talking about Denerys and not Cersei. Because Denerys is "The Queen" to him. In which case, wasn't he going there anyway? It's hard to tell if his intention is to buy his way back into Denerys' affections by delivering her a scapeLannister or to actually collect the bounty.

 

[FPAlpha]

I really love the visual style they gave Sansa at the end of the last season and now.. it's darker which suits her very well as she's maturing and developing skills of her own.

I really hope she is able to stop being the victim (not that she had any choice living besides the little shit Joffrey) but she's not dumb and she's been in close proximity of the best schemers in Westeros so it might have rubbed off (we've seen it has already rubbed off last season).

I really hope she utterly destroys the Boltons with a smile and the right word at the right time and watch them go down the flame.. Game of Thrones really needs a win for the good guys now ( i know.. it's Game of Thrones ).

Jon Snow is finally in the position he was intended to be and he's doing a remarkable job at politics, maybe he's a natural. Elevating Thorne to first Ranger was a good move, they may never become friends but at least they may be neutral and respectful (and despite Thorne being an asshole he is a capable combat leader).

Slynt got what's coming for him though i did believe for a moment that Jon would show mercy.. turned out it was better what he did and as a nice bonus he got rid of a troublemaker and gained respect amongst his people.

Episode 3 and no big shocker moments (if you don't count Drogon appearing) but pure storytelling and setup but it's still riveting to watch pieces being moved and put in the right position for the eventual payoff. This is why i love this show so much.. any other show most people would start to tune out for lack of action or big WTF moments, here people are staying and demanding more.

 

[Tom]

Littlefinger knows Stannis is coming, and he believe Stannis will defeat the Boltons. He is setting a win/win situation with Sansa, even if Stannis loses against the Boltons. But, he is betting on Stannis to win.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Littlefinger knows Stannis is coming, and he believe Stannis will defeat the Boltons. He is setting a win/win situation with Sansa, even if Stannis loses against the Boltons, but he is betting on Stannis.

Though IIRC, Littlefinger urged Ned against backing Stannis in Season 1. So I suspect it's more than simply throwing his lot I'm with Stannis. This is probably only one stage of a multi-layered plot.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Ramsay at the end of last season finally got the thing he'd been longing for his whole life, official recognition as a member of the Bolton family, and he's still acting like a defiant brat. I can't believe he can cover up his sadism for very long.

I wonder what Cersei's angle is with the religious fanatics. I guess she could be trying to undermine public support of Margery.

If Littlefinger does know exactly what Stannis is planning, which is very possible given he has spies everywhere, maybe that's his plan. Stannis walks in with the support of 'Jon Stark', the public backs him. But if they've got a Stark of their own, he can say 'Jon Snow isn't a real Stark' and the people support the Boltons and Sansa. But Stannis has a larger army, so the war is more protracted, the north and Stannis both take heavy losses, then he has a plan up his sleeve to step up and save the north at the last moment, and whoops, all the Boltons died in battle.

 

[Forbin]

My favorite line this week was Margery to Cersei: "Would you like something to drink? We don't have any wine, it's a little early in the day for us."
Meow!

 

[DarthTom]

Slightly off topic, I was re-watching last night and wondered if anyone who lives in the UK would go through the character / actor list and describe based on the actors accent where they were from?

Here in the US it is typically easy to identify where an actor is from based on their accent and was wondering if it's possible for people in the UK to do the same?

For example, just listening to the dialogue I'd guess Lena or Cersi from my ear speaks most like the British aristocracy and thus a London native? Good guess?