Not to mention essentially infinitely copyable. He was never in any real jeopardy, and there was no reason why putting him in the mobile emitter should remove him form the ship's computer.
DSC 1x01: Starships and Technology
- Thread starter Mark_Nguyen
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The series treated his "holomatrix" as a semi-corporeal object that did indeed move, inhabiting sort-of-physically whatever he was loaded to at the time. Sickbay's dedicated core, the bridge later, his emitter.
I mean it wasn't, but they did want the audience to treat him like a unique tangible thing that existed singularly. When they copy-pasted him in one episode, the second doctor broke down before they could get it running for a few seconds.
And they are impossible to adapt or convert to power other things?
I wonder if it would have worked better if the mobile emitter had been there all along, and it was established that it contained the only copy of his program, and for tech tech tech reasons it couldn't be loaded onto the ship's main computer. That could have had the jeopardy element without the silliness of treating a computer program like it was a physical object.
Wouldn't that, like anything, depend on the circumstances at the time?
The power cell in a hand phaser is supposed to be powerful enough to generate a small nuclear blast. The holodeck generator is much larger and more powerful, so one tiny mistake dismantling an incredibly complex and intergrated device could destroy the entire ship. Or take days, and mean taking apart the most of the ships structure around it.
"Incompatible power" is raw realism. Today, rail networks across Europe share track gauge. They can't share trains, though, because even at identical voltage and amperage, the power systems just plain aren't compatible - you need "double-engined" engines to pull the trains across national borders. Trillions of Euros are wasted in the setup overall, but it's still the absolute best the nations can do.
The Voyager had it good, really - when the holodeck systems were declared unapplicable, Janeway could dismiss the whole problem by okaying the shunting of some life support power, so the need can't have been that great overall. If all this X amount of power can provide is light, heat, ventilation and the like, then by all means use it for providing Mediterranean light and heat, a sea breeze and some snooker pals for the crew.
Timo Saloniemi
The Voyager had it good, really - when the holodeck systems were declared unapplicable, Janeway could dismiss the whole problem by okaying the shunting of some life support power, so the need can't have been that great overall. If all this X amount of power can provide is light, heat, ventilation and the like, then by all means use it for providing Mediterranean light and heat, a sea breeze and some snooker pals for the crew.
Timo Saloniemi
Right, and tablet computers can only run for hours, which means they're inferior to rock tablets that can display images for a thousand years without a battery.
Shenzhou has a glorified projector that displays translucent video with artifacts everywhere. Voyager has suspended interactive forcefields in solid lifelike form.
So he would choose to exist as the basic video-projection type of hologram in other rooms instead of complaining about being stuck in one room? Imagine you're stuck in a hospital bed but you can "exist" as this thing:
Would you stop complaining about being stuck in bed? Would you even bother to do this?
Anyway, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the DIS holograms can be projected "everywhere" in the first place. I don't remember them walking through doorways.
He's a computer program. That's essentially all he's doing, all the time whether his code is stored on Voyager's computer core or his mobile emitter. The only difference is tactile feedback, which may even be possible with the tap of a button on DSC for all we know.Right, and tablet computers can only run for hours, which means they're inferior to rock tablets that can display images for a thousand years without a battery.
Shenzhou has a glorified projector that displays translucent video with artifacts everywhere. Voyager has suspended interactive forcefields in solid lifelike form.
So he would choose to exist as the basic video-projection type of hologram in other rooms instead of complaining about being stuck in one room? Imagine you're stuck in a hospital bed but you can "exist" as this thing:
Would you stop complaining about being stuck in bed? Would you even bother to do this?
It's not completely congruous with later holographic tech, but I'm okay letting it go. The thing that bugged me most was that Sarek walked around and leaned on a desk. How does that work? Was there a desk in whatever place he was? Did he lean against something in his location and the computer re-interpreted his movements to lean against something in Burnham's quarters?
Anyway, in less than a decade the TAS Enterprise will have a huge, fully-interactive holodeck, sans characters, so I'm still good with it. It's MORE incongruous to have holo communications in common use when over a century later people were marvelling at the holo-communicator on DS9; but they forgot about that within a year anyway. Perhaps, this, and those other things, are part of the technological fads that come and go over the decades. A while back people were okay with the notion that cloaking devices were a constantly evolving technology that was ultimately countered after being introduced, which explained why various races had it, then didn't, then did again, or had cooler fire-through-cloak stuff that didn't last.
Regardless, all Trek is about visualizing what the future will be like. We're watching Discovery as what the future will be like 240+ years from 2017, not what the past was like 80+ years before 2363. It'll never be a perfect fit, but we fans will spend YEARS making it fit.
Mark
Anyway, in less than a decade the TAS Enterprise will have a huge, fully-interactive holodeck, sans characters, so I'm still good with it. It's MORE incongruous to have holo communications in common use when over a century later people were marvelling at the holo-communicator on DS9; but they forgot about that within a year anyway. Perhaps, this, and those other things, are part of the technological fads that come and go over the decades. A while back people were okay with the notion that cloaking devices were a constantly evolving technology that was ultimately countered after being introduced, which explained why various races had it, then didn't, then did again, or had cooler fire-through-cloak stuff that didn't last.
Regardless, all Trek is about visualizing what the future will be like. We're watching Discovery as what the future will be like 240+ years from 2017, not what the past was like 80+ years before 2363. It'll never be a perfect fit, but we fans will spend YEARS making it fit.
Mark
He's just a program, you're just a brain, what's your point? He has a body that can sense and interact with his physical environment, and that ceases to exist outside of sickbay.
And Burnham could have a Ferengi ancestor for all we know. But I think if you're critiquing continuity errors, it should be based on what you actually saw, not what you imagine.
Re: Sarek leaning: supposedly he sees the Shenzhou end of things just as nicely as our heroes see him. Meaning it's a heavily, heavily edited image, selectively omitting background.
Shouldn't this mean Sarek should not even be able to tell there's a table there that he could pretend to lean against? Or are the settings at his end different? (Or is the desk actually a projection, part of Sarek's scenery rather than the Shenzhou's?)
As for all the gosh-and-wow in "For the Uniform", it's not as if the projection technology itself were amazing the officers. They have literally grown up with imagery like that, with Flotter holding their hand and all. So we have to decide between two scenarios there:
1) It's amazing that communications across great distances can be done using this familiar tech (while previously the image quality would have suffered and Starfleet never wanted to settle for Star Wars type of low quality).
2) It's unusual that communications across great or short distances are done using this familiar tech (even though it has been possible for a century at least).
DSC would now have us pick #2. Basically the same as people today getting wristphones with videophone function and going gosh-and-wow. Technologically, this could have been done decades ago, but the markets didn't want us to have it. And probably the end result will be the same here and in Trek: we'll find out videophones are an incredibly stupid idea (at least until you can filter your image into something less like your dreary reality), just like Starfleet found out holophones are an incredibly stupid idea (perhaps for the very same reason).
Timo Saloniemi
Shouldn't this mean Sarek should not even be able to tell there's a table there that he could pretend to lean against? Or are the settings at his end different? (Or is the desk actually a projection, part of Sarek's scenery rather than the Shenzhou's?)
As for all the gosh-and-wow in "For the Uniform", it's not as if the projection technology itself were amazing the officers. They have literally grown up with imagery like that, with Flotter holding their hand and all. So we have to decide between two scenarios there:
1) It's amazing that communications across great distances can be done using this familiar tech (while previously the image quality would have suffered and Starfleet never wanted to settle for Star Wars type of low quality).
2) It's unusual that communications across great or short distances are done using this familiar tech (even though it has been possible for a century at least).
DSC would now have us pick #2. Basically the same as people today getting wristphones with videophone function and going gosh-and-wow. Technologically, this could have been done decades ago, but the markets didn't want us to have it. And probably the end result will be the same here and in Trek: we'll find out videophones are an incredibly stupid idea (at least until you can filter your image into something less like your dreary reality), just like Starfleet found out holophones are an incredibly stupid idea (perhaps for the very same reason).
Timo Saloniemi
I didn't read that as a shuttle at all, but as a very small probe, not much larger than those exocomps on The Next Generation.
There's a difference between
1) real world holographic technology, aka simple 3d images, which we saw on the Shenzhou used for communication, and
2) the magic TNG holograms that are intelligent, have a corporeal form, and even other characteristics of substance like smell, wetness and stuff.
The first one is obviously used in DIS. All over the ship. The second one, the TNG/VOY/DS9-holograms NOT.
1) real world holographic technology, aka simple 3d images, which we saw on the Shenzhou used for communication, and
2) the magic TNG holograms that are intelligent, have a corporeal form, and even other characteristics of substance like smell, wetness and stuff.
The first one is obviously used in DIS. All over the ship. The second one, the TNG/VOY/DS9-holograms NOT.
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The Trek problem is the sharp division into the two. Why not have intelligent holograms that have no substance? Or dumb ones that do smell, belch and punch?
Basically, it's likely that Trek has both. It's just that those two types aren't explicated in the stories, unlike their opposites.
Timo Saloniemi
Basically, it's likely that Trek has both. It's just that those two types aren't explicated in the stories, unlike their opposites.
Timo Saloniemi
Loved how they mentioned that Shenzhou’s transporter design was being phased out of the fleet
It didn't bother me, but it was pretty wild.
A similar thing happened when Admiral Anderson was a holo on the Shenzhou bridge where he walked up the stairs to stand with Georgiou, and even turned to talk to another crew person on the Shenzhou bridge to open a channel to the Klingons.
It didn't bother me, but it was pretty wild.
I assumed he was ordering one of his own officers.
When Sarek walked to the table, he didn't actually turn around, did he? He flipped around, as if the feed switched to a reverse camera. I'm not sure what that means, but it had my imagination piqued. I'm imagining he can't really see Shenzhou's desk, he maybe sat on something in his own location and there is some computer trickery involved like Mark was saying.
Regarding "For the Uniform", the obvious difference is that it's a perfect solid image, as if the person is really there. If this type of image was previously only possible with a proper hologrid then it could actually be impressive new technology, since the holo-communicator looks like it's just a simple plate on the floor.
Regarding "For the Uniform", the obvious difference is that it's a perfect solid image, as if the person is really there. If this type of image was previously only possible with a proper hologrid then it could actually be impressive new technology, since the holo-communicator looks like it's just a simple plate on the floor.
Oooh, maybe. Interesting, I'll have to take another look.
Good catch! There were actually quite a few instances where the holograms suddenly turned around/shifted mid-sentence. I guess the other side simply sees the person, too, and all interactions with the enviroment (sitting down, walking upstairs) results in the computer switching angles to make the hologram a "smooth" coninuation!
Just a guess, though. We'll likely see more to dissect in the following weeks!
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