Best and Worst of Star Trek: Picard

[James Cole]

The problem is more for the creators... THEY have no idea what people want because there's no clear "this is what people want". No matter what they do, they're going to piss of some large section of the fanbase.

At least serve the fanbase proportionally then. Give the major factions their "flavor of Star Trek" to quote, ahem, Terry Matalas (or should I say Lord Matalas of Raritan). Especially the broad and underserved continuity / ships / period piece / political allegory / professional tone people.

 

[fireproof78]

No, don't serve the fan base. Serve your stories. It's ridiculous when you have this point of view that the fanbase that is as diverse, and on purpose, as Star Trek then it does well to set up a story that you, the writer, are passionate about, and go forward from there.

Otherwise, you are bound to serve no one as the winds of fandom change.

Again, history teaches us that Trek fans reject things out of hand: The Next Generation was a complete anathema to fandom: "No Star Trek without Kirk and Spock". The Wrath of Khan was fa more action and adventure compared to the Motion Picture and the connective tissue to the previous installments is loose at best.

Deep Space Nine was wrong because it was on a station.

On and on it goes. Serving multiple masters means you serve no one.

 

[evilchumlee]

No, don't serve the fan base. Serve your stories.

Why not both?

 

[fireproof78]

Why not both?

If possible, go for it. It certainly can be done, but what I see tend to happen is "fan service creep." Sure, one or two references work, and can add to the world. But, the trend is to demand more and more until its just fan service directing the story, rather than story directing the service.

It's a matter of balance, with my own preference being less service. I don't need a show patronizing me to show its fan service street cred.

 

[Trek Writers Room]

No, don't serve the fan base. Serve your stories.

I couldn't agree more, fireproof78. I believe the most important purpose of writing any fan fiction, especially within Star Trek, is to tell your own story. As a Trek fanfic writer myself, I see how we contribute to the ever-evolving Trekverse. The incredible diversity of opinions within the Star Trek fandom speaks volumes about its passionate community. It's not about pleasing everyone all the time, but about sharing something that enriches the body of Trek while allowing the writer to express themselves within the fandom.

 

[evilchumlee]

It's a matter of balance, with my own preference being less service. I don't need a show patronizing me to show its fan service street cred.

I can understand that, and i'm even ok with it. I can 100% do without references and all that.

I get bothered when there's a situation where you can't please everyone all the time... but the creators almost go out of their way to alienate some. It's obvious that there are some fans who want more in the way of continuity, visual or otherwise. Just to use an example, when they had Enterprise show up in Discovery... would it have thrown fans who don't care into a tizzy if the Enterprise had used Eaves' original design for it, that looked closer to the original? I severely doubt it, those fans would have said "Cool, the Enterprise."... AND the fans who DO care would said "COOL! The Enterprise!"

Would fans who don't care about that kind of thing have stormed CBS with pitchforks if the Discovery Klingons were styled in the traditional Klingon look? Again, I doubt it, they would have said, "Cool, Klingons." Fans who do care would have been like "COOL! Klingons!"

Now on the flip of that, I 100% understand how an over abundance of memberberries could actively alienate viewers who don't care about that. The people do like that stuff probably also wouldn't be particularly assed if they weren't there. Or also on the flip, I can also 100% acknowledge that if Discovery like, went full-on TOS that there would be viewers who just wouldn't watch.

I really don't think it's *ALL* that difficult to find a middle ground that will work for the majority of fans... it just seems like too many creators now just don't care. I feel like even Paramount is recognizing this... finally... SNW is much closer to something I think that a general majority will find at least... fine. I can speak from my experience as someone who very much does care continuity, visual or otherwise, that while SNW's presentation of things isn't my absolute favorite... it's a vast improvement, and in general I don't see Discovery fans who don't care about TOS visuals complaining about the look, either.

 

[fireproof78]

Would fans who don't care about that kind of thing have stormed CBS with pitchforks if the Discovery Klingons were styled in the traditional Klingon look? Again, I doubt it, they would have said, "Cool, Klingons." Fans who do care would have been like "COOL! Klingons!"

Which traditional look? TOS?

I really don't think it's *ALL* that difficult to find a middle ground that will work for the majority of fans... it just seems like too many creators now just don't care.

No, they care. Just not as fans. They are not fans. Their job is not to be fans. That's not their role.

 

[evilchumlee]

Which traditional look? TOS?

Well. Ideally.

But no, I was referring to the generally consistent look of the Klingons from TNG through ENT. Or even if you want to get more specific/updated, SNW.

No, they care. Just not as fans. They are not fans. Their job is not to be fans. That's not their role.

They don't care about the fans... their customers.

In my line of work, I deal with alot of customers with varying wants/needs... if I had an attitude of "I do what I want, I don't care about them", i'm going to be out of a job real quick.

 

[fireproof78]

But no, I was referring to the generally consistent look of the Klingons from TNG through ENT.

Which makes less sense for the period than what we got.

In my line of work, I deal with alot of customers with varying wants/needs... if I had an attitude of "I do what I want, I don't care about them", i'm going to be out of a job real quick.

But, there's a difference. I worked customer service over ten years and there is a balance to be struck. I can care, but I can only care so far as I am capable. There were several demands made by the customers that were completely not within the company's ability to grant for budgetary or business reasons. From a distance, it looks uncaring and unfeeling but there is still a reason behind it.

And let's be frank: Kurtzman and company have completely bent over backwards to assuage the continuity fans fears. They have altered everything to try and win back some, and still people complain. The fact of the matter is, watching Trek fandom as I have, it is impossible to please any of them. They will complain, and the better course is not create (my preference right now) or to create a story that the creator is passionate about and not try to move fan concerns in to it. Because the tyranny of the majority is so vapid that they will chase it forever and never catch it.

 

[evilchumlee]

Which makes less sense for the period than what we got.

Well that doesn't even make sense.

Something that doesn't look like any iteration of Klingons make more sense than having something closer to how Klingons looked just previous to and just after the period makes more sense?


But, there's a difference. I worked customer service over ten years and there is a balance to be struck. I can care, but I can only care so far as I am capable. There were several demands made by the customers that were completely not within the company's ability to grant for budgetary or business reasons. From a distance, it looks uncaring and unfeeling but there is still a reason behind it.[/QUOTE]

Oh sure there are times when it just can't happen.

But if it CAN happen, it should.

You have somebody like Fuller, who went out of his way to demand that the Star Trek show he was working on... not look like Star Trek. To expand on this, I work in marketing and deal with many different brands. If I hired someone to design something for one my brands, and they took the attitude of "Sure, i'll design it... first step, I need to it not look anything like the brand." I would fire them as hard and fast as anyone could possibly be fired.

It seriously befuddles me from my perspective that CBS(at the time) holds the right to an IP... and wasn't furiously protecting their IP brand standards.

I do alot of work for Tito's Vodka. They have a specific orange color used in branding. If I had someone make some Tito's materials using a blue color, I would never let those materials see the light of day and hope to all hell that Tito's never saw it, because i'm gone too.

Instead CBS was like, "Star Trek that doesn't look like Star Trek you say? Brilliant!"

 

[fireproof78]

But if it CAN happen, it should.

Why? This is not just science or business but art. Art usually involves a level of creativity. I don't agree with Fuller but the mandate to make Klingons look more alien is one I'm all about.

And that still doesn't mean the IP holder not care. Again, they just don't care as the fans care.

Something that doesn't look like any iteration of Klingons make more sense than having something closer to how Klingons looked just previous to and just after the period makes more sense?

Yes, because it's supposedly an interstellar empire that supposedly has been around a long time, with various cultural touchstones. In TOS they were about glory, not honor, and they were expansionist, seeking out resources and the challenge because they are "the stronger." There should be elements of their culture that would be unfamiliar to us because they are not like what they would become in later iterations.

The Next Generation did a huge disservice to the Klingons by making them too cookie cutter.

It seriously befuddles me from my perspective that CBS(at the time) holds the right to an IP... and wasn't furiously protecting their IP brand standards.

Then take it up with them. Clearly it didn't bother them overly much. Not sure why I should be concerned with something I have zero decision making over and has since been left behind.

 

[evilchumlee]

There should be elements of their culture that would be unfamiliar to us because they are not like what they would become in later iterations.

The Next Generation did a huge disservice to the Klingons by making them too cookie cutter.

These are two different arguments.

I'm perfectly happy with expanding the lore of the Klingons and making them more culturally alien. I just wanted them to look more like what Klingons have been established as looking like.

We're veering hard off Picard, but Discovery did itself such a disservice by changing the look of so much while also choosing to be a prequel. It invited so much extra fan resistance than it needed to have. They could have told almost the same exact story, set post-Nemesis, and a good deal of that resistance goes away.

To veer back, the Best of Picard... by and large, it looked and felt right. There's some issues, but when compared to my issues with Discovery, it's just nitpicking minutiae with PIC. Overall it did an absolutely fantastic job of being a visual update appropriate for its setting.

The worst: Showing how abusive Picard's parents were as evidenced by dressing him like a 19th century ponce as a child for some reason.

Another another best: One of my favorite things like, ever was the running joke through S3 that Chateau Picard wine... kinda sucks.

 

[fireproof78]

We're veering hard off Picard, but Discovery did itself such a disservice by changing the look of so much while also choosing to be a prequel. It invited so much extra fan resistance than it needed to have. They could have told almost the same exact story, set post-Nemesis, and a good deal of that resistance goes away.

Agreed.

To veer back, the Best of Picard... by and large, it looked and felt right. There's some issues, but when compared to my issues with Discovery, it's just nitpicking minutiae with PIC. Overall it did an absolutely fantastic job of being a visual update appropriate for its setting.

Again, it comes back to feel and I don't feel (arbitrary, I know) that the Klingons are wrong. Just different. The ships are a quibble in DSC, but I quibble over the fact that Mirandas and Excelsiors still show up in The Next Generation so what do I know? Seems stupid to me.

Same with the uniforms. I like Discovery's but it didn't a different touch. Picard's were the same way. Just not quite there.

I'm perfectly happy with expanding the lore of the Klingons and making them more culturally alien. I just wanted them to look more like what Klingons have been established as looking like.

So, if I redid the Klingon make up to look more "right" (again, arbitrary to me given the vast history of the design) then the issues go away?

 

[evilchumlee]

Again, it comes back to feel and I don't feel (arbitrary, I know) that the Klingons are wrong. Just different.

When it comes to how something looks, "different" is... wrong.

The ships are a quibble in DSC, but I quibble over the fact that Mirandas and Excelsiors still show up in The Next Generation so what do I know? Seems stupid to me.

I actually have less issue with the ships in general. Aside from the DSC Klingon Bird of Prey being the single biggest pile of garbage ship ever in Trek, anything else is... fine? I even like some of the designs, and I can even make them work in my head alongside the types ships I would think be there.

Same with the uniforms. I like Discovery's but it didn't a different touch. Picard's were the same way. Just not quite there.

I can take uniforms are largely irrelevant, to a point. If they did another show set during the TNG era and they had some different uniform... i'd be miffed, because I know what the uniforms should look like. The DSC era? Meh, uniforms can change quickly enough I don't have any issue.

The S2+ PIC uniforms were nice. The S1 uniforms were on the bland side, but I appreciated that they looked "right". The flashback uniforms were snazzy, should went with those.

So, if I redid the Klingon make up to look more "right" (again, arbitrary to me given the vast history of the design) then the issues go away?

For one, I really don't see much difference in the design from TMP onwards through ENT. There are variations, but they're minor.

But...

Does it make all of the issue go away? No.

Some? Yes.

Enough for me to not really complain about it? Probably, yeah. Even if they went more like the Kelvin movie Klingons? Sure. Close enough. Hell even if they were... Season 2 Klingons from the get go. I still wouldn't LOVE the redo, but even the S2 versions were much, much better. And then SNW... great. Nailed it.

Hell, honestly even if just didn't do the weird Xenomorph elongated head, and kept everything the same on the S1 Klingons, I could probably get past it.

Discovery is failed for me on multiple levels. Yes, I absolutely despise the aesthetics (the early ones anyway, post-time jump... meh, fine.). But... it's also just not a good show. If it was a really awesome show and had the aesthetic issues? I could probably be more apologetic. Or even flip, if it looked the way I expected it to look, but the writing was the same? Meh, i'd still probably give it more of a pass. But it both looked dumb and was written terribly. It's not *ALL* bad, there is some good hidden until the pile of garbage, but by and large... ugh.

 

[fireproof78]

But it both looked dumb and was written terribly. It's not *ALL* bad, there is some good hidden until the pile of garbage, but by and large... ugh.

Which means the issues stick out more.

When it comes to how something looks, "different" is... wrong.

Well, I appreciate the perspective even if I flat out disagree.

 

[Eddie Roth]

That would be Strange New Worlds.

Well, love letters are per se cheesy, so yeah, SNW is often enough an appropriate love letter to ST.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Best
- The first Star Trek show that's not a prequel or reboot (visual or otherwise) since VOY. Meaning we are moving the story forwards, instead of backwards for the sake of modernization.

- Fleshing out the Romulans. And seeing the classic Romulan Bird-of-Prey active in the 24th century.

- Attempted to do new things and introduced new ideas (Borg Reclamation Project and the xBs, Fenris Rangers, Zhat Vash, Confederation of Earth, the Mariposas Movement, the worlds of Vashti, Freecloud and Coppelius, Jurati Borg, fleet formation based off of Borg tech)

- Dominion War followup

- The rogues' gallery for this show - Narek, Narissa, Bjayzl, Oh/Nadar, and even Vadic.

- Annie Wersching's Borg Queen

- nu-Guinan

- Mid-2380s uniforms. They looked sharp and inspired.

- Bringing back the traditional cloaking effect (over the ST'09 & Disco cloaking effect) and starship phasers

- The TNG reunion. It's a better note to end on than Nemesis, And also progresses all of their stories. And gave us some much needed drama as well (Piker and Riker, Picard and Beverly, Picard and Geordi, Picard and Ro)

Worst

- The unceremonious removal of Jurati, Rios, Soji, Elnor, Laris and Zhaban from the series. With Soji and Elnor, their relationship with Picard as an adopted father in never expanded upon. And in the case of Laris and Zhaban, they never joined Picard on his mission, despite the involvement of Tal Shiar. And afterwards, Zhaban was killed off ofscreen and Laris was an afterthought in the final season.

- The lack of effort when writing for those who were not legacy characters (i.e Seven, Tuvok, Q, Guinan, Wesley and the rest of the TNG cast, Moriarty). The worst display is in Season 2, but it occurs throughout the series. Its not a coincidence that the legacy characters had the best episodes (ex. "Stardust City Rag", "Nepenthe", "The Star Gazer", "Penance", "Farewell"), as that were where the writing was shown the most effort. It's also why there's such a reliance on nostalgia in other the show and the current era of Trek in general.

- Killing off legacy characters (i.e. Bruce Maddox, Hugh, Icheb, Ro, Shelby) for sake of killing them off. While Ro's and Maddox's were handled the best, the way the writers went about killing the characters off is why some fans thought they'd kill off one of the main TNG character in S3. It suggested that the writers did not value the characters and what they meant to the audience.

- Not delivering on the live action Luna-class USS Titan, and instead giving fans the Constitution III USS Titan-A. And then, after spending a whole season getting the audience to care about the Titan-A, it's rechristened as the Enterprise-G in the final few minutes of the series finale cause...reasons. Disrespecting everyone that ever served on the Titan-A in the process, and the legacy of the Titan lineage.

- The Ent-E and Ent-F - the former is never seen on screen (despite a funny throwaway joke) and given an unceremonious and premature end offscreen. And the latter is brought onto the show only to be retired early and destroyed.

- The 2390s & early 2400 uniforms. Its an attempt to be a throwback to DS9 & VOY, yet also tries to be a modernized version of the monster maroons. They feel uninspired and very reliant on nostalgia .

- Pretending Agent Wells wasn't Ducane

- A pair of annoying inconsistencies:
a) Regarding Romulans cybernetics and artificial intelligence across Romulan society, the PIC take is inconsistent with what was seen and said on TNG and VOY. And isn't discussed by Starfleet at all
b) The idea that Starfleet did not want Seven in Starfleet because she's Borg, yet Icheb who was also Borg was allowed to serve in Starfleet.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Not delivering on the live action Luna-class USS Titan

It always amuses me when people describe CGI as "live action". It's just more photorealistic animation.

 

[Rahul]

Having the Borg be the surprise villain three(!) times in a row - and every single time completely disconnected from the previous instance - was certainly... a choice...

 

[Rahul]

Best: Worf.