Babylon 5 and the absurdities of the plagiarism charge

[TopperHenly]

But, what are the nasty ripoffs other than both series having a space station?

As I mentioned, I don't think there was any major rip-offs. There could be however said that B5 might have influenced the direction of DS9. Seeing that long story-arc plots could be done by B5, it might have given the creators of DS9 the confidence to do something similar with the Dominion war arc. I was never into this B5/DS9 plagiarism war and not interested in looking it up so this is just an opinion of mine.

Just wanted to point out something though. I'm not sure how the idea of Section 31 came about. I haven't seen B5 for a few years and while that has series had PSI Corps, I'm sure there was another secretive organisation called Bureau 13 which performed a similar role as Section 31.

There was a British TV series in the seventies called the Omega Factor. It was a secretive organisation formed by the British government to look into paranormal activities. Given the similarities to the X-files which started almost a decade later I'm sure it was influenced by it. Straczynski said it he was influenced by a number of classic Sci-fi TV series including Blakes 7, it could be possible he had watched the Omega Factor and based Bureau 13 on that which in turn influenced Section 31.

 

[tomswift2002]

[QUOTE="TopperHenly”]

Just wanted to point out something though. I'm not sure how the idea of Section 31 came about. I haven't seen B5 for a few years and while that has series had PSI Corps, I'm sure there was another secretive organisation called Bureau 13 which performed a similar role as Section 31.
.[/QUOTE]
Bureau 13! Even though I’m on a rewatch right now, I had totally forgot about it, since it only appeared in one season 2 episode (“A Spider In The Web”) and then was never mentioned again. But it was a sub-department of the PsyCorp. According to the B5 wiki, after the episode had been shot, both Straczynski and the writer, Larry DiTillio found out that there was a 1983 role playing game called “Bureau 13: Stalking the Night Fantastic”. Because of this, it was dropped to avoid any trouble.

https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Bureau_13

 

[DonIago]

I kind of wonder what role Bureau 13 would have ultimately served in the series if they hadn't been forced to shelve it. Possibly the same role as the Black Omega subdivision of Psi Corps? Though, had that already been established?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Section 31 and Bureau 13 have all the creativity of MI13, Public Security Section 9, etc. It's basically something drawn from bureaucratic brainlessness that produces mind-numbingly underdescriptive names like "Title IX."

 

[Phoenix219]

...Warehouse 13?

 

[tomswift2002]

I kind of wonder what role Bureau 13 would have ultimately served in the series if they hadn't been forced to shelve it. Possibly the same role as the Black Omega subdivision of Psi Corps? Though, had that already been established?

I think the future of the Bureau 13 line ended up with Bester and the Garibaldi arc. There was that one episode in Season 4 where Bester was meeting with, apparently, his CO in PsyCorp, that didn’t make a lot of sense for the rest of the series. In the rest of the series Bester is a tfirst a cop and then seems to be promoted to looking over all of the Corps, including black ops affairs, and even goes after Lyta to get her back in the Corps and get her body so that it can be dissected upon her death.

 

[somebuddyX]

I think a lot of DS9 and B5 is independent evolution of similar ideas but it's funny some of the circumstances that led to these on the Trek side. Also it's easy to disprove a lot of this stuff now but a lot of the accusations were back around when DS9 had just aired and maybe before B5 hadn't even aired. JMS also made it clear he didn't believe the creatives were involved but it was the execs that had seen his bible that might have been steering Piller and Berman to use his ideas.
But some similarities I love:

• Both numbered space stations ....except DS9 was originally going to be on a planet's surface.
• Both shows get starships at the start of the 3rd season...except the Defiant was originally just a big runabout that ballooned in size and I can't believe JMS didn't have the idea of the White Star or some other ship around since the beginning. Hell at one point he wanted to blow up B5 and have B4 fly around the galaxy so he definitely had plans to get the crew mobile.
• The changeling thing really pissed him off, and while I like the effect of Odo I think the changeling net is a much cooler idea.
• Both heroes fall down a big pit at one point, die and go to live with the aliens who gave them special powers. Aliens whose true forms look like glowing blobs of energy, who metaphorically are seen as gods or literally seen as angels.
• A declining alien race that has recently withdrawn from a more primitive world after strip mining it of resources joins forces with a superior alien race that eventually leads to it's own enslavement and planetary wide destruction.

 

[Akalabeth]

Not sure why people can't accept that Ds9 ripped off B5. Have you ever heard of a movie called Deep Impact? What about one called Armageddon? Two movies with the same theme coming out in the same year. Weird right? Is it coincidence that just as Babylon 5 was being made that Paramount decides to make their own show on a space station? People in this thread, particularly the original poster will say there's no concrete proof- right there's not, that's called plausible deniability. Like when the people who made Disney's Atlantis said they never saw Nadia of Blue Water ( http://am.animatedviews.com/AtlantisNadia.html ), or the other people who made Disney's Lion King said they never saw Simba the White Lion.

Similarly JMS is probably not going to accuse them when there's no concrete proof and when he has no intention to sue them.

But what are some similarities?
1. Both commanders are broken survivors of a battle where their side got decimated (Wolf 359 and Battle of the Line)
2. Both XOs are no nonsense women, and according to the B5 bible, both are prejudiced towards a former aggressor race (Ivanova was supposed to be racist against the Minbari as her brother died in the war).
3. Both are set on space stations with diplomatic aims which are situated near an interstellar gate important for trade and commerce
4. Both feature a religiously-minded race that recently gained freedom from an occupying empire
5. Both Commanders are romantically involved with civilian ship captains
6. Both stations become central bases in a large interstellar war
7. Both feature advanced, god-like aliens central to the plot which have a particular relationship with the Commanders.
8. Both feature small, cutting-edge hero ships specifically designed to tackle large interstellar threats (Shadows or Borg).

There are other similarities to be sure, some of them solid and some thin- but if one believes the idea that both shows largely went their own way after an initial start, then this list is some of the most pertinent similarities.

For my part, while I'm a big fan of TOS and TNG I think B5 is the best sci-fi to hit the small screen. Only thing of value to come out since is the Expanse. Deep Space 9 had its moments, but to call it a serial is generous, I found most plot-important episodes only came out at the start and end of the season while the middle was largely episodic. It didn't go far enough, and similar to Voyager, I honestly don't like most of the cast. And come on the series finale re-used footage from previous episodes! That's bad man. Like, Star Trek Generations Bird of Prey explosion bad. I guess they ran out of money or something.

 

[Tosk]

Not sure why people can't accept that Ds9 ripped off B5.

It's because of the evidence.

 

[Rhodan]

Quite ironically, because Vorlons acting as villains happened very late in the series, most people would recognize Shadows and their Chaos philosophy as the only antagonists... While DS9 had exclusively Dominion with it´s Order obsession.

 

[Akalabeth]

It's because of the evidence.

The evidence which you neither refute nor provide?

You do know that Deep Space 9 was announced internally literally right after Babylon 5 was publicly announced right? JMS's wife was in the meeting when it happened and she had to excuse herself and leave the room ( https://lithub.com/why-babylon-5-nearly-didnt-make-it-onto-tv/ ). I mean you placed so much importance on the fact the Defiant hit the tv screen first, but I guess a big detail like a show being announced first doesn't mean anything right?

Koenig later was in a lunch meeting with one of the producers and even later broke the news to JMS how similar the two shows were. I guess you had to be there right? To realize that one was on its basic level a carbon copy of the other?

Coincidences only go so far.

And even if you can excuse one coincidence or another, one of the most damning things of all is the tonal shift. One thing that distinguished B5 from Star Trek was that the future was imperfect, humanity was still very flawed, while Star Trek showed humanity as very idealized- but then, DS9 dumped the idea and went for a darker tone and hey suddenly star fleet officers and humanity are imperfect now too! Sisko is even an accessory to murder. The same franchise that had the episode with the Organians has a series featuring a war with millions dead where the hero of the show tries to mislead potential allies into fighting with them. Quite the reversal.

You know what DS9 doesn't copy? Star Trek.

 

[Takeru]

As I mentioned, I don't think there was any major rip-offs. There could be however said that B5 might have influenced the direction of DS9. Seeing that long story-arc plots could be done by B5, it might have given the creators of DS9 the confidence to do something similar with the Dominion war arc. I was never into this B5/DS9 plagiarism war and not interested in looking it up so this is just an opinion of mine.

Serialized storytelling wasn't invented by B5 though and TNG was on the verge of becoming a semi serialized show early on, it had the Conspiracy aliens which were set up in Quinn's and Remmick's first appearance and the season finale set up starfleet and the romulans working together to solve the mystery of the destroyed outposts. Season 2 would have featured an arc of them actually working together culminating in the introduction of the borg (aka the conspiracy aliens).
The writer's strike between seasons 1 and 2 scuttled those plans and then the borg became cyborgs instead of an insectoid species but had it happened and it would have been received well by the audience TNG could have easily become a very different show.

Koenig later was in a lunch meeting with one of the producers and even later broke the news to JMS how similar the two shows were. I guess you had to be there right? To realize that one was on its basic level a carbon copy of the other?

On its basic level Babylon 5 is completely unoriginal and so is Star Trek, of course B5 and DS9 are very similar just like two hospital shows are pretty much identical on the basic level. That's not a revelation and it doesn't mean anyone copied someone else.

Coincidences only go so far.

Actually coincidences go VERY far, writers working on a similar premise at the same will almost inevitably come up with similar ideas and plots. They draw from the same well known set of stories that came before, watch much of the same entertainment, read the same news etc. the human mind isn't that special, different people coming up with similar ideas independently from each other happens all the time.

]And even if you can excuse one coincidence or another, one of the most damning things of all is the tonal shift. One thing that distinguished B5 from Star Trek was that the future was imperfect, humanity was still very flawed, while Star Trek showed humanity as very idealized- but then, DS9 dumped the idea and went for a darker tone and hey suddenly star fleet officers and humanity are imperfect now too!

Have you watched Star Trek before? TOS was full of flawed people, humans were portrayed as prejudiced, criminal etc., they solved some problems but humanity was never portrayed as perfect. TNG leaned more into humans having "evolved" but that really only extended to the main cast, Tasha was from a failed colony where she had to hide from rape gangs, tons of admirals and some captains were petty, incompetent, unlikable or just evil. The federation government on TNG basically fucked over colonists and told them "Too bad, now pack your stuff and leave your homes forever". That's not perfect in any way.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The evidence which you neither refute nor provide?

JMS and the Babylon 5 people have made the charge, but they have refused to put forward evidence, only a list of coincidences, all of which are easily explained away.

You do know that Deep Space 9 was announced internally literally right after Babylon 5 was publicly announced right? JMS's wife was in the meeting when it happened and she had to excuse herself and leave the room ( https://lithub.com/why-babylon-5-nearly-didnt-make-it-onto-tv/ ). I mean you placed so much importance on the fact the Defiant hit the tv screen first, but I guess a big detail like a show being announced first doesn't mean anything right?

What does it matter being first? The shows had different origins, different impulses behind them. The fact that there were two shows introduced at the same time is no big deal, and JMS didn't particularly own any concepts that Star Trek had not already used.

Koenig later was in a lunch meeting with one of the producers and even later broke the news to JMS how similar the two shows were. I guess you had to be there right? To realize that one was on its basic level a carbon copy of the other?

Yes, Paramount may have wanted to bury Babylon 5. That is NOT plagiarism.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

One thing that distinguished B5 from Star Trek was that the future was imperfect, humanity was still very flawed, while Star Trek showed humanity as very idealized- but then, DS9 dumped the idea and went for a darker tone and hey suddenly star fleet officers and humanity are imperfect now too! Sisko is even an accessory to murder.

You must have stopped watching The Next Generation after season 1. The concept of perfect humanity was eroded away season after season, especially when Michael Piller came on board.

One of the most ignorant things that Babylon 5 apologists do when advancing this argument is that they don't take the history of Star Trek into account. The genesis and development of DS9 very much had its roots in TNG. The proof is in thousands of zine and thousands of interviews. All B5 apologists have are the coincidences.

Let me add that Babylon 5 never did an episode like Emissary, never did an episode like Duet, never did an episode like Past Tense, never did an episode like The Visitor, and never did an episode like Far Beyond the Stars. It was forever locked into the story that was ripped from the pages of Tolkien, and when after season 4 all the Tolkien stories ran out, Babylon 5 turned into shit.

 

[Akalabeth]

Serialized storytelling wasn't invented by B5 though and TNG was on the verge of becoming a semi serialized show early on, it had the Conspiracy aliens which were set up in Quinn's and Remmick's first appearance and the season finale set up starfleet and the romulans working together to solve the mystery of the destroyed outposts. Season 2 would have featured an arc of them actually working together culminating in the introduction of the borg (aka the conspiracy aliens).

Everyone is on the verge of doing something, but actually doing the thing is what matters.

On its basic level Babylon 5 is completely unoriginal and so is Star Trek, of course B5 and DS9 are very similar just like two hospital shows are pretty much identical on the basic level. That's not a revelation and it doesn't mean anyone copied someone else.

Actually coincidences go VERY far, writers working on a similar premise at the same will almost inevitably come up with similar ideas and plots. They draw from the same well known set of stories that came before, watch much of the same entertainment, read the same news etc. .

Feel free to provide evidence to any of these claims at any point.
You seem to be under the impression the entertainment industry doesn't copy each other? That competing shows in a given genre just happen by accident?

Have you watched Star Trek before? TOS was full of flawed people, humans were portrayed as prejudiced, criminal etc., they solved some problems but humanity was never portrayed as perfect.

Deep Space 9 is consistently regarded as having a darker tone than the other Star Trek series. Do you dispute this?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Feel free to provide evidence to any of these claims at any point.

Go read Tolkien.

Deep Space 9 is consistently regarded as having a darker tone than the other Star Trek series. Do you dispute this?

And this matters because ... .

Being the darker Star Trek still makes it pretty sunny.

 

[Akalabeth]

You must have stopped watching The Next Generation after season 1. The concept of perfect humanity was eroded away season after season, especially when Michael Piller came on board.

Do you also dispute that Deep Space 9 is darker than the other Star Trek series?

One of the most ignorant things that Babylon 5 apologists do when advancing this argument is that they don't take the history of Star Trek into account. The genesis and development of DS9 very much had its roots in TNG. The proof is in thousands of zine and thousands of interviews. All B5 apologists have are the coincidences.

No, aside from Babylon 5, the genesis of DS9 has its roots in the death of Gene Roddenberry. Because had he been alive, he would have never greenlit such a dark, war-filled show under the Star Trek banner.

Let me add that Babylon 5 never did an episode like Emissary, never did an episode like Duet, never did an episode like Past Tense, never did an episode like The Visitor, and never did an episode like Far Beyond the Stars. It was forever locked into the story that was ripped from the pages of Tolkien, and when after season 4 all the Tolkien stories ran out, Babylon 5 turned into shit.

Duet? It's called Deathwalker.
Past Tense and Visitor are both time travel, which Babylon 5 doesn't flaunt around like Star Trek does. Past Tense is probably copying City at the Edge of Forever. Visitor also lost the hugo nomination to B5's Coming of the Shadows so- maybe ain't that great huh?

Also, have to say why do most of the episode you laud have nothing to do with DS9's story arc? Isn't that a bit weird. My favourite B5 episodes are pivotal to the story (Severed Dreams, The Long Twilight Struggle).

Also, your criticism of Babylon 5's final season betrays your ignorance of the show's history.

 

[Jayson1]

I'll admit, I never watched B5. I just know that whenever the DS9/B5 similarities are brought up, that's included and among the various similarities, that particular one has always amused me. Indeed, I even remember hearing that because of Homefront/Paradise Lost, Foxworth wasn't available to do a B5 episode filming at the same time, leading to goofing around on the B5 sets where there's supposedly a take where one of the actors says "General Hague couldn't make it. He's leading a coup on Deep Space Nine this week."

That General Hague clip is real. Here it is at the 5.46 mark

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Jason

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Do you also dispute that Deep Space 9 is darker than the other Star Trek series?

As you can see, I have already answered this.

No, aside from Babylon 5, the genesis of DS9 has its roots in the death of Gene Roddenberry. Because had he been alive, he would have never greenlit such a dark, war-filled show under the Star Trek banner.

How do you know this? You have visited his spirit?

Roddenberry was clearly complex, and his scripts reveal his own doubts about humanity. However, if there is anything I can say that Roddenberry believed in, it was money. Women and money. If he was going to get more, he would be happy.

Duet? It's called Deathwalker.

It's called Man in the Glass Booth. And Duet appeared one year earlier.

Past Tense and Visitor are both time travel, which Babylon 5 doesn't flaunt around like Star Trek does. Past Tense is probably copying City at the Edge of Forever. Visitor also lost the hugo nomination to B5's Coming of the Shadows so- maybe ain't that great huh?

What is your point here? Babylon 5 did not explore issues of family or contemporary issues. You are trying to divert attention to the issues at hand.

Also, have to say why do most of the episode you laud have nothing to do with DS9's story arc? Isn't that a bit weird. My favourite B5 episodes are pivotal to the story (Severed Dreams, The Long Twilight Struggle).

First, I pointed out things that clearly show differences between the two series: there are themes and issues that Babylon 5 clearly never dealt with. Second, DS9 is not the story of the Dominion War the way that Babylon 5 is the story of the war with the Shadows. It is the story of the people living on the station.

Also, your criticism of Babylon 5's final season betrays your ignorance of the show's history.

I watched it. After a really great season 3, season 4 was a shambolic mess, and season 5 clearly was just winging it. Perhaps JMS should have started reading David Eddings for ideas?

 

[Akalabeth]

How do you know this? You have visited his spirit?

Dude you need to get off the forums and read some articles:
https://trekmovie.com/2014/10/13/be...-roddenberry-hated-star-trek-deep-space-nine/

Marina Sirtis said:
“The truth is that if Gene (Roddenberry) was alive- had been alive- DS9 would have never been made, because he absolutely said “no” to it when it was presented to him. He said ‘Star Trek is about exploring space, it’s not about a hotel in space.’ So, it would never have happened.”

Bear in mind. That JMS was pitching B5 for 5 years and was in discussion with Paramount about possibly doing the show until discussions suddenly stopped. So if they floated the idea to JR they could still be ripping off B5.

Rick Berman said Sirtis is wrong and Gene loved the idea. Then later he said they never showed it to him at all. Which says to me, he's lying about one, the other, or both.

What is your point here? Babylon 5 did not explore issues of family or contemporary issues. You are trying to divert attention to the issues at hand.

What's a contemporary issue? Racism? So like when aliens were getting murdered on B5, and Delenn's friend got her forehead branded with a human supremacy symbol? Was that racism?

How about Londo (a Centauri) standing in line Severed Dreams, telling people behind him how Narn are slow and inefficient. Is that racism?

What about a contemporary issue like poverty. And where an alien ambassador has no interest in a treaty with Earth until he mistakenly thinks that "down below", ie the poor homeless area, is deliberate and thinks hey actually you guys are great because "forced" segregation of the poor.

You know what episode star trek never did? Believers. The episode where Dr Frankling does an operation to save a child against the religious beliefs of the family, and the episode ends with *spoiler* the parents killing the child. Did Star Trek ever do that episode? I doubt it.

First, I pointed out things that clearly show differences between the two series: there are themes and issues that Babylon 5 clearly never dealt with. Second, DS9 is not the story of the Dominion War the way that Babylon 5 is the story of the war with the Shadows. It is the story of the people living on the station.

Hey guess what that's great but that wasn't my argument so, it doesn't mean anything to me. I never said JMS didn't borrow from tolkein, I mean they're called Rangers. Of course he borrowed from it. I also didn't say the shows don't start to differ after the start, because they did- but the basic premise has a lot of similarities, the timing is very obviously in response to B5 as well, and the tonal change is probably in trying to make it more like B5. Or maybe just they wanted to get away from Gene's original vision which DS9 certainly did.

I watched it. After a really great season 3, season 4 was a shambolic mess, and season 5 clearly was just winging it. Perhaps JMS should have started reading David Eddings for ideas?

Here's a history lesson for you.
Babylon 5 was a 5 season story.
During production of Season 4, they were told they wouldn't get a season 5, so JMS took all of the story left and crammed it into one season.
Then in the final hour of the show, they got a season 5.

It's not that he ran out of ideas. The story was done. He'd finished it. Imagine if DS9 or VOY had another season after its current finale? Would probably suck right. If you've ever watched the japanese anime Macross it's the same thing. TV has a story arc. Arc finishes. Then they want more episodes added on and the story after the main arc sucks.

That's why it sucks. I'll wager everyone who is a fan of Babylon 5 knows this. The fact that you don't know that, says you didn't do your research because a quick google search of "why does babylon 5 season 5 suck?" would have probably given you the answer.

It's also why the final episode of season 5 is amazing even when the rest of the thing is utter trash, because it was made WITH season 4. Then they delayed it, did that weird one about an evolved human looking at history tapes and used it at the end of season 4 instead.